For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[HosannaHM]

I believe in God because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible because it contains the Gospel of Christ. The good book is accurate historically and timeless. The prophecies in the book help some people by faith accept it as God's book. When I prayed the verse from Romans 10:9 I was saved because I truly believed in Christ. That's why this is so hard to comprehend scientifically. You're not going to get a straight answer from anyone making full sense of why they believe what they do. It's all about faith. Science is faith as well with some hypotheses and theories. Why do people choose to believe in the evolution THEORY? Or why believe in the Big Bang THEORY? I think it's crazy how the bible seems so unbelievable but some of these outrageous theories are more popular these days.

The point is you choose to believe what is on your heart. It changed my life, and if you wanna experience struggles from a different perspective with true joy at your side in Christ Jesus, try utilizing faith when you read the Bible.

 

[Darkeonz]

I believe in God because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible because it contains the Gospel of Christ.

So you believe in the God of the Bible because jesus tells you it's true?

Science is faith as well with some hypotheses and theories. Why do people choose to believe in the evolution THEORY? Or why believe in the Big Bang THEORY? I think it's crazy how the bible seems so unbelievable but some of these outrageous theories are more popular these days.

Science is not Faith


"Science is a faith" is a statement that reflects a straw man or equivocation fallacy propagated by apologists to attempt to discredit "belief" in science as being no more sound than believing in god. Science does contain philosophical underpinnings which are unprovable, which thus require "faith" in the epistemological sense. However, science distinguishes itself from purely faith-based beliefs in the same way that philosophy does; by the application of logic. Science also goes one step further by adhering to demonstrable, repeatable experiments and empirical data.
Furthermore, the statement indirectly generates a false dilemma by positioning science as "the dogma of the atheist". The individual who does not believe in god, but does a daily ritual to summon fairies, is likewise an atheist, but is unlikely a scientist. Science is not synonymous with atheism."

From "iron chariots"

 

[Ar Cosc]

I believe in God because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible because it contains the Gospel of Christ.

You could find hundreds of millions of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Shintoists who would say the same thing about their deities and holy texts though.

The good book is accurate historically and timeless. The prophecies in the book help some people by faith accept it as God's book.

Only it's not historically accurate, and the prophecies are so vague they can be twisted to most situations. Look at the hundreds of occasions people have been certain it's the end-times, because the circumstances almost always fit the prophecy when you want them to.

When I prayed the verse from Romans 10:9 I was saved because I truly believed in Christ. That's why this is so hard to comprehend scientifically. You're not going to get a straight answer from anyone making full sense of why they believe what they do.

I used to be a believer, and was for years, because I was scared I would lose my faith if I examined it objectively. When I eventually looked at the evidence, and the reasons for my faith, it became clear that I was just deluding myself, because I really, really wanted to believe.

It's all about faith. Science is faith as well with some hypotheses and theories. Why do people choose to believe in the evolution THEORY? Or why believe in the Big Bang THEORY? I think it's crazy how the bible seems so unbelievable but some of these outrageous theories are more popular these days.

In a scientific context, a theory is different to a hypothesis. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting evolution, and zero credible evidence against. The same for the Big Bang, although the field of cosmology is a lot less certain, and goes into territory we don't fully understand. The difference is that these theories are at least plausible, and don't require the sort of doublethink needed to believe the Bible is literal and infallible.

The point is you choose to believe what is on your heart. It changed my life, and if you wanna experience struggles from a different perspective with true joy at your side in Christ Jesus, try utilizing faith when you read the Bible.

Again, a devout Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or Scientologist would tell you the same thing. Why is the Bible so special?

 

[HosannaHM]

So you believe in the God of the Bible because jesus tells you it's true?



Science is not Faith


"Science is a faith" is a statement that reflects a straw man or equivocation fallacy propagated by apologists to attempt to discredit "belief" in science as being no more sound than believing in god. Science does contain philosophical underpinnings which are unprovable, which thus require "faith" in the epistemological sense. However, science distinguishes itself from purely faith-based beliefs in the same way that philosophy does; by the application of logic. Science also goes one step further by adhering to demonstrable, repeatable experiments and empirical data.
Furthermore, the statement indirectly generates a false dilemma by positioning science as "the dogma of the atheist". The individual who does not believe in god, but does a daily ritual to summon fairies, is likewise an atheist, but is unlikely a scientist. Science is not synonymous with atheism."

From "iron chariots"

Funny, the two elements of science I mentioned are unprovable.. and if people choose to believe them than that is a form of faith, just like your insert says.

 

[tsr]

I'm asking you how you go from believing in a God, to believing those things.

If you believe in God and accept Him as your pers savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within you and your belief is nourished by the Holy Spirit guiding you to His word the Bible which is the inspired word of God

 

[HosannaHM]

You could find hundreds of millions of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Shintoists who would say the same thing about their deities and holy texts though.


Only it's not historically accurate, and the prophecies are so vague they can be twisted to most situations. Look at the hundreds of occasions people have been certain it's the end-times, because the circumstances almost always fit the prophecy when you want them to.


I used to be a believer, and was for years, because I was scared I would lose my faith if I examined it objectively. When I eventually looked at the evidence, and the reasons for my faith, it became clear that I was just deluding myself, because I really, really wanted to believe.


In a scientific context, a theory is different to a hypothesis. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting evolution, and zero credible evidence against. The same for the Big Bang, although the field of cosmology is a lot less certain, and goes into territory we don't fully understand. The difference is that these theories are at least plausible, and don't require the sort of doublethink needed to believe the Bible is literal and infallible.



Again, a devout Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or Scientologist would tell you the same thing. Why is the Bible so special?

This is not all true. Evolution cannot be proved. Your wanting concrete evidence from my faith but you don't even have it within these theories (both of which are flawed theories). Faith is not forced either. If you really, really wanted to believe you could. Because faith isn't born out of fear, it's out of love.

Perhaps a muslim or a buddhist would say the same thing, but I feel the Holy Spirit. I have seen what it can do. Amazing things ☨

 

[HosannaHM]

If you believe in God and accept Him as your pers savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within you and your belief is nourished by the Holy Spirit guiding you to His word the Bible which is the inspired word of God

That's a big AMEN brother!

 

[Hespera]

I believe in God because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible because it contains the Gospel of Christ. The good book is accurate historically and timeless. The prophecies in the book help some people by faith accept it as God's book. When I prayed the verse from Romans 10:9 I was saved because I truly believed in Christ. That's why this is so hard to comprehend scientifically. You're not going to get a straight answer from anyone making full sense of why they believe what they do. It's all about faith. Science is faith as well with some hypotheses and theories. Why do people choose to believe in the evolution THEORY? Or why believe in the Big Bang THEORY? I think it's crazy how the bible seems so unbelievable but some of these outrageous theories are more popular these days.

The point is you choose to believe what is on your heart. It changed my life, and if you wanna experience struggles from a different perspective with true joy at your side in Christ Jesus, try utilizing faith when you read the Bible.

If you are actually asking, i will see if you can get this from a different pov.

First off, the business of "faith". i fear you may have fallen for the vice of equivocation here.

Your faith in god...belief in things unseen, in that which you cannot demonstrate to be so is faith on a wholly different plane from 'faith' in material things, and information about them, is it not?

i dont think you'd say your faith in god is equivalent to your faith in the water tap in your kitchen reliably producing water when you turn it.

i think comparing faith in god with faith in science is deeply misleading, in that sense, and tends to spoil understanding rather than promote it.

Your use of the word "belief' is also in the category. i believe the water will flow, I believe Hess' law will always be reliable, i believe the Bernuli principle will keep the airplane in the air. That is not at all like belief in whatever god ones subscribes to. You do know that the ones worshipping 'false gods" are as sincere as yourself.

people dont "believe in" false machines, or false operating principles that, of course, simply dont work!

Now as for what science has..."hypotheses, theories".

YOU have the same things, its how you get thru the day. You trust in them, to varying degrees, according to how well they have been reliable, is it not so?

Lets take the ToE now.

I do not "choose to believe in it". I am psychologically incapable, it seems, of "choosing" what i believe. i do, or I dont, on the merits.

I know very well the observations, the evidence, the work that has been done in all of the hard sciences, the mass of data that goes into the ToE.

Anyone who does would have a very difficult time finding any fault with it, well actually nobody ever has.... other than for religious reasons.

i find it "crazy' that anyone would choose to think that are capable of an inerrant interpretation of the bible, and choose their faith in themselves over the testimony of the earth itself, which, if god is its author, is HIS words written large and unmistakeably upon the land.

If you wonder why some parts of the bible seem so unbelievable, it is because they simply.... are unbelievable. Noahs ark is a prime example.
The testimony of the earth itself.. Gods work, if you will, says absolutely that the flood, as written about by men, did not happen.



Here on campus most of the people are Christians, including of course, in the bio dept. They dont seem to have any trouble reconciling the bible, their faith in god, with the reality of deep time and evolution.

You might do well to look into that approach rather than your false dichotomy between them evil atheist evos, and the god lovers who think that science is a crazy faith.

 

[HosannaHM]

If you are actually asking, i will see if you can get this from a different pov.

First off, the business of "faith". i fear you may have fallen for the vice of equivocation here.

Your faith in god...belief in things unseen, in that which you cannot demonstrate to be so is faith on a wholly different plane from 'faith' in material things, and information about them, is it not?

i dont think you'd say your faith in god is equivalent to your faith in the water tap in your kitchen reliably producing water when you turn it.

i think comparing faith in god with faith in science is deeply misleading, in that sense, and tends to spoil understanding rather than promote it.

Your use of the word "belief' is also in the category. i believe the water will flow, I believe Hess' law will always be reliable, i believe the Bernuli principle will keep the airplane in the air. That is not at all like belief in whatever god ones subscribes to. You do know that the ones worshipping 'false gods" are as sincere as yourself.

people dont "believe in" false machines, or false operating principles that, of course, simply dont work!

Now as for what science has..."hypotheses, theories".

YOU have the same things, its how you get thru the day. You trust in them, to varying degrees, according to how well they have been reliable, is it not so?

Lets take the ToE now.

I do not "choose to believe in it". I am psychologically incapable, it seems, of "choosing" what i believe. i do, or I dont, on the merits.

I know very well the observations, the evidence, the work that has been done in all of the hard sciences, the mass of data that goes into the ToE.

Anyone who does would have a very difficult time finding any fault with it, well actually nobody ever has.... other than for religious reasons.

i find it "crazy' that anyone would choose to think that are capable of an inerrant interpretation of the bible, and choose their faith in themselves over the testimony of the earth itself, which, if god is its author, is HIS words written large and unmistakeably upon the land.

If you wonder why some parts of the bible seem so unbelievable, it is because they simply.... are unbelievable. Noahs ark is a prime example.
The testimony of the earth itself.. Gods work, if you will, says absolutely that the flood, as written about by men, did not happen.



Here on campus most of the people are Christians, including of course, in the bio dept. They dont seem to have any trouble reconciling the bible, their faith in god, with the reality of deep time and evolution.

You might do well to look into that approach rather than your false dichotomy between them evil atheist evos, and the god lovers who think that science is a crazy faith.

If you read the entire thread you may understand why the comment was posted in the way it was. It's a discussion on "believing in the God of the Bible vs. not" I never said anyone was evil either. I try to keep an open mind when approaching these issues, and my comments on science were merely about BELIEIVING theories.

 

[Hespera]

This is not all true. Evolution cannot be proved. Your wanting concrete evidence from my faith but you don't even have it within these theories (both of which are flawed theories). Faith is not forced either. If you really, really wanted to believe you could. Because faith isn't born out of fear, it's out of love.

Perhaps a muslim or a buddhist would say the same thing, but I feel the Holy Spirit. I have seen what it can do. Amazing things ☨

Funny, the two elements of science I mentioned are unprovable.. and if people choose to believe them than that is a form of faith, just like your insert says.

I hope you will prove capable of seeing where the equivocation comes in, with this talk of faith.

here is an example of how it works. Hess' law has been tested, and used successfully millions upon billions of times. It is readily explained by atomic theory, why it works; there is no reason to think it could ever fail.

We cannot PROVE tho that it is always going to work, simply because not all experiments in all possible conditions can be done.

It is far far far far more reliable than your water tap, which might well fail and we can think of a thousand ways it could fail.

Again, too, "choose to believe" is for religion, not for science. Science isnt even about belief.

Saying "evolution cannot be proved" is true, but not very meaningful.
You cant prove gravity will always keep you from floating off the ground!
Does that seem like an important thing to keep in mind, while going about and making your important decisions in life?

It is proven far far beyond any reasonable doubt. ToE and gravity both.

In the absence of so much as one data point that would indicate it could be false, i would say it is utterly unreasonable faith that would cause a person to dismiss it as an outrageous unbelievable theory.

 

[Hespera]

If you read the entire thread you may understand why the comment was posted in the way it was. It's a discussion on "believing in the God of the Bible vs. not" I never said anyone was evil either. I try to keep an open mind when approaching these issues, and my comments on science were merely about BELIEIVING theories.

I guess Im kind of disappointed if that is all that you got out of the effort i made to let you see a different way of understanding.


If you really have an open mind, perhaps its worth continuing.

 

[HosannaHM]

I hope you will prove capable of seeing where the equivocation comes in, with this talk of faith.

here is an example of how it works. Hess' law has been tested, and used successfully millions upon billions of times. It is readily explained by atomic theory, why it works; there is no reason to think it could ever fail.

We cannot PROVE tho that it is always going to work, simply because not all experiments in all possible conditions can be done.

It is far far far far more reliable than your water tap, which might well fail and we can think of a thousand ways it could fail.

Again, too, "choose to believe" is for religion, not for science. Science isnt even about belief.

Saying "evolution cannot be proved" is true, but not very meaningful.
You cant prove gravity will always keep you from floating off the ground!
Does that seem like an important thing to keep in mind, while going about and making your important decisions in life?

It is proven far far beyond any reasonable doubt. ToE and gravity both.

In the absence of so much as one data point that would indicate it could be false, i would say it is utterly unreasonable faith that would cause a person to dismiss it as an outrageous unbelievable theory.

For the last time I'm not refuting science. The belief of theories. It's silly for me to believe in scripture from the Bible but not to believe in evolution. That is my point.

Thank you for understanding, And I'm sorry if it comes off ignorant or unreasonable to you. I don't mean to offend at all.

 

[Ar Cosc]

This is not all true. Evolution cannot be proved. Your wanting concrete evidence from my faith but you don't even have it within these theories (both of which are flawed theories). Faith is not forced either. If you really, really wanted to believe you could. Because faith isn't born out of fear, it's out of love.

Evolution cannot be fully proved, but as Hespera said, it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Neither of the theories is perfect, and nobody is claiming they are, they both need much refinement. However, they explain the observed evidence far better than a self-contradicting book with no independent evidence to back up it's own self-professed inerrancy.

And I know you have no reason to believe me, but I did try really, really hard to believe. After all, I'd been told all of my life that I would be a bad person if I did not. I literally could not help becoming an agnostic, then an atheist.

Perhaps a muslim or a buddhist would say the same thing, but I feel the Holy Spirit. I have seen what it can do. Amazing things ☨

And a Muslim would say they feel the spirit of Allah, and that it can do amazing things. Not to belittle you in any way, but why is your personal testimony any more valid than theirs?

 

[HosannaHM]

I guess Im kind of disappointed if that is all that you got out of the effort i made to let you see a different way of understanding.


If you really have an open mind, perhaps its worth continuing.

Ok I really do appreciate what you said. The problem is I have a hard time understanding all sides (which is why I'm on this site). For me to be that blunt was rude and I can see that. I'm sorry I just feel like a lot of this thread is point vs. point vs. point with no one learning anything along the way.

If your talking about a lot of Christains being narrow-minded, I agree with you. It's hard to be accepting at time of another's beliefs for a couple different reasons such as some thinking they are the supreme world religion. I respect your views on the topic and bear with me I'm trying to understand everyone's sides.

 

[HosannaHM]

Evolution cannot be fully proved, but as Hespera said, it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Neither of the theories is perfect, and nobody is claiming they are, they both need much refinement. However, they explain the observed evidence far better than a self-contradicting book with no independent evidence to back up it's own self-professed inerrancy.

And I know you have no reason to believe me, but I did try really, really hard to believe. After all, I'd been told all of my life that I would be a bad person if I did not. I literally could not help becoming an agnostic, then an atheist.


And a Muslim would say they feel the spirit of Allah, and that it can do amazing things. Not to belittle you in any way, but why is your personal testimony any more valid than theirs?

No no your not belittling me man. Your bring up a great reason why not these other religions? The Old testament has many prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ. I know you've probably refuted that many times, but it's what I believe in.

And I totally understand. I can see your reasoning on why you believe what you do. People have talked about the bible contradicting itself but that is a matter of opinion. I don't see that.

 

[Hespera]

Ok I really do appreciate what you said. The problem is I have a hard time understanding all sides (which is why I'm on this site). For me to be that blunt was rude and I can see that. I'm sorry I just feel like a lot of this thread is point vs. point vs. point with no one learning anything along the way.

If your talking about a lot of Christains being narrow-minded, I agree with you. It's hard to be accepting at time of another's beliefs for a couple different reasons such as some thinking they are the supreme world religion. I respect your views on the topic and bear with me I'm trying to understand everyone's sides.

you are far from rude, and i appreciate that.

as for learning vs not learning, usually, i think the reason is that people go about from one topic to the next, too many topics and never get to the bottom of any.

I think it would be nice to establish at least one concept as solid before going on to others.

Could we agree that 'faith' and "belief" in god are so differnt from 'faith and belief' in data, water taps, and theory that one really should not even use the same words?

 

[Ar Cosc]

No no your not belittling me man. Your bring up a great reason why not these other religions? The Old testament has many prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ. I know you've probably refuted that many times, but it's what I believe in.

Of course, I just think that the firstly, the person who coincidentally fulfilled the most vague prophecies would be more likely to be worshipped as the Messiah, and also, anyone wishing to be worshipped as the Messiah would definitely play up their fulfillment of prophecy.

And I totally understand. I can see your reasoning on why you believe what you do. People have talked about the bible contradicting itself but that is a matter of opinion. I don't see that.

Thank you for being so reasonable!

 

[AV1611VET]

Thank you for being so reasonable!

Someone should.

 

[HosannaHM]

you are far from rude, and i appreciate that.

as for learning vs not learning, usually, i think the reason is that people go about from one topic to the next, too many topics and never get to the bottom of any.

I think it would be nice to establish at least one concept as solid before going on to others.

Could we agree that 'faith' and "belief" in god are so differnt from 'faith and belief' in data, water taps, and theory that one really should not even use the same words?

Well the roadblock with using different words contradicts what I "believe" in would be the problem there. It's a different kind of belief, but I have seen those beliefs come true. Prayers being answered, witnessing the Spirit impacting different peoples lives. And for a Christian to refute using that word, the relationship aspect written in the Bible is contradicted.
Example:
"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10 (NIV)

I guess that's why it's difficult to transition from those words. I understand your reasoning though. For us to turn a nozzle and water to come out is much more logical then the Holy Spirit coming down on request (Facts surviving the scientific method are things that we know,therefore believe based on supported information. Faith can be believing without logic) . I suppose it all depends on that same concept as before, and i hate to sound repetitive but it's what you believe in your heart is truth.

 

[HosannaHM]

Someone should.

Hey brother I know your frustrated but remember your witness