For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Hespera]

Well the roadblock with using different words contradicts what I "believe" in would be the problem there. It's a different kind of belief, but I have seen those beliefs come true. Prayers being answered, witnessing the Spirit impacting different peoples lives. And for a Christian to refute using that word, the relationship aspect written in the Bible is contradicted.
Example:
"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." Romans 10:9-10 (NIV)

I guess that's why it's difficult to transition from those words. I understand your reasoning though. For us to turn a nozzle and water to come out is much more logical then the Holy Spirit coming down on request (Facts surviving the scientific method are things that we know,therefore believe based on supported information. Faith can be believing without logic) . I suppose it all depends on that same concept as before, and i hate to sound repetitive but it's what you believe in your heart is truth.

Hmm, ok, i see how you might feel that you had been presented with physical evidence, cause and effect relationships that go beyond belief in things unseen.


We note parenthetically that people from every sort of religious practice have similar reports to make. What would you say are the implications of that?

What about what i said, regards "choosing to believe" ? is that how you actually see it, or do things, or was that just how you said it without thinking it over?

Coz i truly have no ability to choose to believe which to me is identical with choosing self deception. I didnt choose to believe that my boyfriend was who i will spend my life with him, he has shown me his love and devotion, and that, i do believe.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hey brother I know your frustrated but remember your witness

Deleted -- thank you.

 

[HosannaHM]

Hmm, ok, i see how you might feel that you had been presented with physical evidence, cause and effect relationships that go beyond belief in things unseen.


We note parenthetically that people from every sort of religious practice have similar reports to make. What would you say are the implications of that?

What about what i said, regards "choosing to believe" ? is that how you actually see it, or do things, or was that just how you said it without thinking it over?

Coz i truly have no ability to choose to believe which to me is identical with choosing self deception. I didnt choose to believe that my boyfriend was who i will spend my life with him, he has shown me his love and devotion, and that, i do believe.

I choose water over soda, I choose going to the right instead of going to the left. As I see it, God is soverign over the world so if anybody is doing the choosing it's Him.

I'm confused by your statements lol (I've read them over a couple times) in what your trying to get at by. Are you saying that faith is forced?

 

[Ar Cosc]

I choose water over soda, I choose going to the right instead of going to the left. As I see it, God is soverign over the world so if anybody is doing the choosing it's Him.

I'm confused by your statements lol (I've read them over a couple times) in what your trying to get at by. Are you saying that faith is forced?

I think it's forced by circumstance. As in, if God created the universe, he set in action an inevitable chain of events that would lead to me being an unbeliever. And if he's omniscient, he knew that it would happen. Which is why I think it would be so immoral for him to punish me for it.

 

[Hespera]

I choose water over soda, I choose going to the right instead of going to the left. As I see it, God is soverign over the world so if anybody is doing the choosing it's Him.

I'm confused by your statements lol (I've read them over a couple times) in what your trying to get at by. Are you saying that faith is forced?

That is a totally different sort of choice. Can you choose to like grape soda when you really dont?

Belief, tho, is like love. How can you choose to love someone? You do or you dont.

If i say I'm really green eyed irish, you can choose to conditionally take my word, or not, I guess... but how deep is it? its a very conditional belief, and if you heard my accent you wont believe it at all.

Sitting here, I do not believe there is any sort of god.

Now, if I said, ok now i have chosen to believe... its fake.

If by logic, signs, or other convincing means i saw there must be, then i would believe; no choice! if i found my guy cheating, i wont believe his love is true: no choice there either.

I just do not get it how you can CHOOSE belief.

If you choose to believe that 'god is sovereign" i find that utterly weird.
Sorry, but i just dont get it at all.

you can stand there look about... where is he?

he gave us a book about himself? but why does it include utter nonsense?

why did he give so many people such different books?

Not sure your meaning "faith is forced'. Like god forces it on people or they force it on themselves?

My take would be that people talk themselves into it.

What happens if your faith is in a book that isnt true? (noahs ark again)

 

[HosannaHM]

That is a totally different sort of choice. Can you choose to like grape soda when you really dont?

Belief, tho, is like love. How can you choose to love someone? You do or you dont.

If i say I'm really green eyed irish, you can choose to conditionally take my word, or not, I guess... but how deep is it? its a very conditional belief, and if you heard my accent you wont believe it at all.

Sitting here, I do not believe there is any sort of god.

Now, if I said, ok now i have chosen to believe... its fake.

If by logic, signs, or other convincing means i saw there must be, then i would believe; no choice! if i found my guy cheating, i wont believe his love is true: no choice there either.

I just do not get it how you can CHOOSE belief.

If you choose to believe that 'god is sovereign" i find that utterly weird.
Sorry, but i just dont get it at all.

you can stand there look about... where is he?

he gave us a book about himself? but why does it include utter nonsense?

why did he give so many people such different books?

Not sure your meaning "faith is forced'. Like god forces it on people or they force it on themselves?

My take would be that people talk themselves into it.

What happens if your faith is in a book that isnt true? (noahs ark again)

God being Sovereign meaning if He wanted to He can call people to His kingdom. I understand what your saying now. Your going based off of what is physical, what is seen. God doesn't always work like that. I've seen His Spirit flowing through because I seek Him. You do not have any desire to know God, therefore you do not. I can stand and look about and believe that He is all around. Like I said before logic only applies to mankind's physical understandings. I cannot fully explain it, honestly neither can you (I don't mean that in a bad way).

Well if my "faith book" wasn't true I guess I would be out of luck, which I also don't believe. But I'll humor you. If it wasn't, I would die and just be another spot in the ground just like an atheist "believes" whichever context of the word I would use there.

And I'm sorry I also believe Noah's Ark happened. Like I said faith is not always logical. If it was, wouldn't it infringe on your freedom?

Atheism is just as much of a decision as Christianity.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Atheism is just as much of a decision as Christianity.

Atheism is a decision based on the fact that you have not your burden of proof. You claim that a god exists, and more specifically, the god you believe in is the right one. You must first demonstrate why this is true.

 

[Hespera]

God being Sovereign meaning if He wanted to He can call people to His kingdom. I understand what your saying now. Your going based off of what is physical, what is seen. God doesn't always work like that. I've seen His Spirit flowing through because I seek Him. You do not have any desire to know God, therefore you do not. I can stand and look about and believe that He is all around. Like I said before logic only applies to mankind's physical understandings. I cannot fully explain it, honestly neither can you (I don't mean that in a bad way).

Well if my "faith book" wasn't true I guess I would be out of luck, which I also don't believe. But I'll humor you. If it wasn't, I would die and just be another spot in the ground just like an atheist "believes" whichever context of the word I would use there.

And I'm sorry I also believe Noah's Ark happened. Like I said faith is not always logical. If it was, wouldn't it infringe on your freedom?

Atheism is just as much of a decision as Christianity.

The idea of god being sovereign makes sense, if there is a god.

I wonder how a person can say this tho...

I've seen His Spirit flowing through because I seek Him

.

As metaphor, ok, but you sure did not see gods spirit flowing.

As for desire to know god, well, no, its not really like that. i'd be glad to, same as id be glad to see nessie. i just dont seek nessie, and dont think there is any point in it.

Of course none of us can explain much about the world around us. i like to try to understand it tho.

For example, noahs ark. You could hardly find anything more thoroughly impossible, nor more thoroughly shown to be impossible.

IF you take the AV tack, and say sure, there is every evidence that it didnt happen but that is coz god hid the evidence, ok, end of talk.

Eariler I said that god, if there be one, wrote the earth; and one I think can figure he didnt write lies into it. Far beneath my feet here is the remains of an ancient seabed, where giant sea turtles and dinosaurs once swam. That is as true as rain, nobody could deny it.

No god put those there to fool us!

By the same token the earth tells us that no flood ever happened.

I wonder why, how would you explain it that this is not a problem for the Christians on the campus here, who believe their god as much as you, but dont think that they have to beleive a literal noahs ark any more than they have to believe that the rivers and hills will literally sing and clap their hands?

do you ever think that maybe if the earth, presumably written by god, reads very differently than you think the bible reads, maybe its you who is wrong? You dont think the rivers will sing do you? So why does noah have to be literal? You wont really be out of luck just coz those are metaphorical, will you?

(i dont agree with what you said about atheism but enuf for now)

 

[HosannaHM]

Atheism is a decision based on the fact that you have not your burden of proof. You claim that a god exists, and more specifically, the god you believe in is the right one. You must first demonstrate why this is true.

Demonstrate? Logic does not completely apply to this. If you have no belief, then you will not know.

Decisions are made whether you move or not. Consider a path that splits: One goes to the left and the other to the right. You technically have 4 choices.
You will go to the left path
You will go to the right path
You will go back the way you came
You will stay neutral where you are

A choice is made based on your priorities.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Demonstrate? Logic does not completely apply to this. If you have no belief, then you will not know.

Decisions are made whether you move or not. Consider a path that splits: One goes to the left and the other to the right. You technically have 4 choices.
You will go to the left path
You will go to the right path
You will go back the way you came
You will stay neutral where you are

A choice is made based on your priorities.

Entirely non sequitur.

Positive claims require positive proof. It is not enough to make a claim regarding the existence of a god, you must demonstrate this. If I claim to have one billion dollars in my bank account, it would be foolish for you to accept this on blind faith, unless I could show you a bank statement showing $1,000,000,000.

Do you see the difference?

 

[HosannaHM]

The idea of god being sovereign makes sense, if there is a god.

I wonder how a person can say this tho...
.

As metaphor, ok, but you sure did not see gods spirit flowing.

As for desire to know god, well, no, its not really like that. i'd be glad to, same as id be glad to see nessie. i just dont seek nessie, and dont think there is any point in it.

Of course none of us can explain much about the world around us. i like to try to understand it tho.

For example, noahs ark. You could hardly find anything more thoroughly impossible, nor more thoroughly shown to be impossible.

IF you take the AV tack, and say sure, there is every evidence that it didnt happen but that is coz god hid the evidence, ok, end of talk.

Eariler I said that god, if there be one, wrote the earth; and one I think can figure he didnt write lies into it. Far beneath my feet here is the remains of an ancient seabed, where giant sea turtles and dinosaurs once swam. That is as true as rain, nobody could deny it.

No god put those there to fool us!

By the same token the earth tells us that no flood ever happened.

I wonder why, how would you explain it that this is not a problem for the Christians on the campus here, who believe their god as much as you, but dont think that they have to beleive a literal noahs ark any more than they have to believe that the rivers and hills will literally sing and clap their hands?

do you ever think that maybe if the earth, presumably written by god, reads very differently than you think the bible reads, maybe its you who is wrong? You dont think the rivers will sing do you? So why does noah have to be literal? You wont really be out of luck just coz those are metaphorical, will you?

(i dont agree with what you said about atheism but enuf for now)

Perhaps it would help if I worded it this way;

I've seen His Spirit because He revealed Himself to me. Better?

I would only be speaking metaphorically if i didn't believe that the the Spirit was present, and merely having blind faith say such a thing. But I don't believe my faith is blind.

The flood is controversial, but in reference to your dinosaurs there is a verse in Job where a Leviathan or behemoth is mentioned (a very large beast with a long tail) in Job 40:15-24.

What makes my head turn is...if there is no God, why is everyone so eager to disprove Him?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

What makes my head turn is...if there is no God, why is everyone so eager to disprove Him?

Believe it or not, but there are many people who would rather see things as they are.

Again, you're missing the point. It's not that we're trying to disprove a god, it's that you (theists) haven't met your burden of proof.

 

[HosannaHM]

Entirely non sequitur.

Meaning entirely illogical. Which is what I said friend

But that would be trusting you wouldn't it? Trusting God is a bit different when you have a personal relationship.

 

[HosannaHM]

Believe it or not, but there are many people who would rather see things as they are.

Again, you're missing the point. It's not that we're trying to disprove a god, it's that you (theists) haven't met your burden of proof.

Which brings me back to earlier. You call me a theist, meaning that you are not? Even though atheist is within the very name? Your trying to offer me a "burden of proof". Do you have it all figured out?

No points are being missed from my view. It's simply that we do not agree on theology.

 

[Hespera]

Atheism is a decision based on the fact that you have not your burden of proof. You claim that a god exists, and more specifically, the god you believe in is the right one. You must first demonstrate why this is true.

Its no different from the 'decision' to be an anessiest. nessie really isnt central to reality.

To a goddist, the world is divided into god / not god.

If it were, of course you'd have to decide yes / no, god, / not god.

To me, it just isnt. Any more than football is central to my life, tho it is to some. Its not even peripheral. Did I decide i dont care about football, that im not interested, that the stadium and all the churches for that matter, can crumble and blow away for all I care?

Nope i didnt choose. its just how i happen to actually feel.

 

[HosannaHM]

Its no different from the 'decision' to be an anessiest. nessie really isnt central to reality.

To a goddist, the world is divided into god / not god.

If it were, of course you'd have to decide yes / no, god, / not god.

To me, it just isnt. Any more than football is central to my life, tho it is to some. Its not even peripheral. Did I decide i dont care about football, that im not interested, that the stadium and all the churches for that matter, can crumble and blow away for all I care?

Nope i didnt choose. its just how i happen to actually feel.

But you did. In not taking any interest in that topic, you chose to stay neutral (To stand still in the illustration above). Don't you see that to do nothing is a choice?

 

[tsr]

Let me say this in a nutshell for those that don't believe in God, and deny Him.......2 seconds in hell will change their mind

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Which brings me back to earlier. You call me a theist, meaning that you are not? Even though atheist is within the very name? Your trying to offer me a "burden of proof". Do you have it all figured out?

No points are being missed from my view. It's simply that we do not agree on theology.

No, I don't have "all figured out". I don't believe I will ever have it "all figured out." But then again, this is non sequitur.

Personally, I strive to see things as they are. Life is much simpler this way, and narrows the possibility of cognitive dissonance.

All I am pointing out, which seems to escape you, is that when one makes a positive claim, e.g., there is a god, it is reasonable to ask why.

 

[sandwiches]

But you did. In not taking any interest in that topic, you chose to stay neutral (To stand still in the illustration above). Don't you see that to do nothing is a choice?

I didn't choose to stay neutral. I chose to actively show that the people making god claims are wrong.

Let me say this in a nutshell for those that don't believe in God, and deny Him.......2 seconds in hell will change their mind

I hope I get to experience those 2 seconds in hell before I die so I can change my mind, then. It's sadly unsurprising that Christians feel that they have to threaten people with hell. You'd figure the evidence would be convincing enough for everyone to believe, if God really cared about our souls.

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Let me say this in a nutshell for those that don't believe in God, and deny Him.......2 seconds in hell will change their mind

In a nutshell, there is no proof for your god.