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Featured For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    1 Corinthians 15:

    "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).

    Death is abolished (v.26). God becomes All "in" all (1 Cor.15:28). Even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free


    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
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  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Statement of Faith -- Please Read

    7 Myths About Universalism


    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Twelve points opposing the opinion that AION is not used of finite time in the Scriptures. The same 12 points showing that even the phrase "into the ages of the ages" is used of finite time in the Bible:

    (1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

    (2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

    (3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

    (4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

    (5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

    Summing up the argument:

    - eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
    - eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
    - which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
    - therefore his punishment is finite &
    - his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
    - the eons of the eons themselves are finite

    Regarding Jude 7 the following Interlinear does not say "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aionion":
    Jude 1 Interlinear Bible . Similarly, a literal version reads:

    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

    "The destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities is still apparent to all who visit the region. In this way these cities are experiencing the justice of eonian fire. The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God's judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)" (Concordant Commentary of the New Testament, p.376) Concordant Commentary on the New Testament

    "We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

    "The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

    "But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

    "Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

    "2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

    "If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

    Next we'll look at a 6th case that occurs in the book of Revelation where our phrase "the ages of the ages" is applied to God, either to His glory or living, etc:

    (6) The book of Revelation makes several references to God living (or His glory) "for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 15:7). God living "into the eons of the eons" that end no more denies His future endless life than it denies He was living before the times of the eons (1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) that He created (Heb.1:2). "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began." Eons come & go, but He is both before & after them. Similarly, God is living for the present eon, but that doesn't mean He was dead before it, nor that He will be dead when it ends. Likewise He was living for past eons, but that doesn't mean He died when they ended. Likewise with His glory.

    His “years shall not come to end” (Psa.102:27).

    Further remarks on this point can be found in the following article in the section titled "Living For the Eons of the Eons": Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two

    So we find the phrases "into ages of ages" & "into the ages of the ages" in 6 category types in Revelation:

    - Rev.20:10 the torment of Satan & 2 others
    - Rev.14:11 rising smoke of humans tormented
    - Rev.19:3 rising smoke of a city burned
    - Rev.22:5 saints reigning
    - Rev.11:15 Christ reigning
    - multiple references to God living or His glory

    In at least 5 of the 6 category types above, the vast majority, we have said that the phrase in question is of limited duration. Even if, in the one other case, when the phrase refers to God, it somehow means "forever and ever", e.g. because God is forever, that has no bearing on the other 5 categories which do not connect the phrase with God's life or glory, and do not connect it with something or someone everyone knows is endless.

    (7) As documented by scholar Illaria Ramelli, Origen & a number of other early church fathers spoke of an end of all ages & or an end of "ages of ages". See Ramelli's tome below, pages 8-10, 13-14, 112ff, 132, 157-8, 160-1, 167-8, 202. (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp)
    Preview of The Christian doctrine of Apokatastasis : a critical assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena [WorldCat.org]

    "In Hom. in Ex. 6,13, similarly, Origen foresees the end of all aeons: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God.” (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.161)

    "Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
    as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)

    ...continued at my next post...
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (8) 1 Cor.10:11. Scripture speaks of the "ends of the ages" or eons (1 Cor.10:11) and an "end of the ages" (Heb.9:26). If the phrase "the ages of the ages" meant ages tumbling endlessly one after the other, as some commentators claim, why does Scripture says the ages end?

    There were no ends of any eons present when Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor.10:11). For Jesus spoke of the present eon in which He lived (Mt13:22; Lk.16:8) and its end (Mt.24:3) which has still not arrived almost 2000 years later. The eon that Jesus was living in, which Paul calls the "present evil eon" (Gal.1:4), of which Satan is god (2 Cor.4:4), began before David (Lu. 1:70) and all the prophets (Ac. 3:21), after the end of the world in the days of Noah, thousands of years before the birth of Christ. So, again, there was no eon ending when Paul wrote 1 Cor.10:11, let alone an end of multiple eons. So what is he referring to in speaking of a consummation or end "of the eons" having been attained (1 Cor.10:11)?

    "(The) scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11... "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons."
    AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Chapter Five

    "It contains the phrase "the ends of the eons," or, as we prefer to render it, "the consummations of the. eons" (1 Cor. 10:11), for they not only come to an end, but culminate in the accomplishment of the purpose (Eph. 3:11) for which they were made (Heb. 1:2)....In our own spirits we have an undeniable foretaste that the eons are accomplishing the purpose for which they were made." (Unsearchable Riches [U.R.], Vol. 58, p.39-40, A.E.K.).

    "in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Eph.3:11)
    " which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (Eph.1)

    "The eons not only come to an end, but culminate in the purpose (Eph.3:ll) for which God made them (Heb.l:2)." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)

    "Paul is warning the Corinthians not to become disqualified, but to drink out of their spiritual, following Rock—Christ. A strong incentive to do this is that already the consummations of the ages have attained in spirit to the saints. What the ends of the coming eons will bring has already been made known in some measure to the saints. Every one of the four occurrences of the verb katantao in Paul's epistles shews that he used it as a meaning to attain in spirit, to draw up alongside in spirit (1. Cor. 10:11; 14:36; Eph. 4:13; Phil. 3:11)."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

    "It is not until the consummation when God becomes All in all that His titles can be clearly and fully appreciated. But we, in sense, have been taken ahead of time to the consummation.
    The manifestation of Christ through His sacrifice, which we see with the eyes of faith, is vitally connected with the conclusion of the eons according to Hebrews 9:26 where we read, "... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." Paul describes us who believe this evangel as those "to whom the consummations of the eons have attained" (1 Cor.lO:ll). The goals toward which God is leading the universe have, in spiritual way, come ahead of time to us. And one of these goals is the manifestation of Himself to His creatures." (U.R., Vol 71, p.77, D.H.H.).

    "In spirit, Paul brought those under his ministry into the new creation, which is the spiritual counterpart of the eon inaugurated by the new heavens and new earth. It is only thus that the consummations of the eons had already reached the Corinthians." (U.R. Vol. 100, p.132-134, J.R.C.)....?

    "...The evangel of God concerning His Son announces the end of sin and the end of divine indignation. These consummations will be realized throughout the universe when God is All is all, but, in spirit, they have attained to us who are believing (1 Cor. 10:11)." (U.R., Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255, D.H.H.)

    If all eons end (1 Cor.10:11), then "eons of eons" (Rev.14:11) and "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. Likewise must the "torment" for these finite time periods also end. What occurs after their end - whether endless torments, endless annihilation or reconciliation to God - is left up to other passages of the Scriptures to reveal.

    For elaborations upon this point re 1 Cor.10:11 i'd suggest the following articles & comments:

    Unsearchable Riches, Vol 15, p.24-28; Vol 19, p.230; Vol 58, p.39-40; Vol 82, p.238; Vol 97, p.44, 185, 255; Vol 99, p.283; Vol 100, p.131-134 @

    Unsearchable Riches


    (9) Heb.9:26 refers to an end of the ages. If all ages end, then "the ages of the ages" must end, both in Rev.20:10 & all other contexts of Scripture.

    "Origen, reflecting on Heb 9:26 and Eph 2:7, argues that Christ’s sacrifice was made once and for all aeons. These aeons are not infinite or repetitive, but point to one telos, the apokatastasis of all, which is not a result of necessity, but of all rational creatures’ voluntary adhesion to the Good." (Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.202)

    A.E. Knoch opined that Hebrews 9:26 and 1 Cor.10:11 are "positive proof that the eons have a conclusion, or "end", and therefore do not last "for ever"...[which] also repudiates the assumptive theory of man that there is an infinite series of ages..." (U.R., Vol. 19, p.230, 1928).

    "...the Greek preposition epi, when followed by a dative case, as here, signifies "over," "on the basis of," "with a view to." It was on the basis of a conclusion of the ages, for repudiation of sin through His, sacrifice, that He has been manifested. Epi, when followed by a genitive or accusative case, takes the meaning "on," or "on to," but its metaphorical force comes out generally when the dative case is used. Christ was manifested with a view to the ages being concluded, The ages are the times in which sin and enemies are present, requiring the sacrifice of God's Son. He was manifested so that sin might be set aside through His sacrifice, having in view a conclusion to the ages. He was certainly not manifested at a conclusion of the ages, but His manifestation demands that the eons terminate."ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

    "26 FOR,]lit. 'since it were behoving him, to suffer many times from [the] laying-down of the world, but now, once for all, on the full-end of the ages, has he been manifested with a view to a putting away of sin, through his own sacrifice' " (Robert Young, LL.D., Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament, p.158, also author of Young's Literal Translation & Young's Concordance)
    Concise Critical Comments on the New Testament
    A commentary on the holy Bible, as literally and idiomatically tr. out of the original languages

    "We have been asked concerning Hebrews 9:26, which in the Authorized Version reads as follows: "... but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." It seems to be saying that the "end of the world" occurred when Christ was sacrificed. As A. E. Knoch once said, "This is so impossible that I suppose no one takes it seriously."* The early (1926, 1930) editions of the Concordant Version, hoping to put sense into an enigmatic passage rendered it as follows: "... yet now, once, has He been manifested through His sacrifice, for the repudiation of sin at the conclusion of the eons." ...Neither the AV or the early CV completely reflected the order of the Greek clauses in English. The sublinear reads now yet once on together-finish of-the eons INTO UN-PLACING OF-THE missing THRU THE SACRIFICE OF-Him He-HAS-beenn-made-APPEAR."

    "...Even when considering a single eon, the "conclusion" {sunteleia, together-finish) of the eon (e.g., Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time in which the events of that eon culminate. It is compared with a harvest. By definition, an eon's culmination is that portion of it in which its highest point is attained in order to reach a final result. "The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of a period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word 'conclusion.' "

    ""The scope of the book of Hebrews does not include the present time of grace to the nations. Yet there was to be delay, so that its readers would die in faith instead of receiving the promises. This shows that, at that time, and, indeed, throughout our Lord's ministries and the book of Acts, the coming eons were imminent. Consequently, it appeared as if our Lord's sacrifice came just before the kingdom. And is not this, together with the last eon, the harvest season of the eons? With this in mind it is not so very difficult to see that all of the time after His sacrifice is 'conclusion', especially with respect to sin." "

    "...The term "at" (the conclusion of the eons) is not strictly correct; it is only that this is the best idiomatic rendering we can make in the Version. The word is actually "on." The idea seems to be this: We are to understand that once Christ had been manifested "for [EIS for the purpose of] the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice," one enters, or comes upon that field of time which we may now view as "the conclusion of the eons." The eonian times which are encompassed with in the scriptural revelation began to conclude once Christ's sacrifice was accomplished - when "He died to Sin once for all time" (Rom.6:10)."

    "Until then all awaited His sacrifice. The zenith had not been reached. All was still, so to say, "uphill." But once the great Sacrifice was made, when the Lord declared, "It is accomplished!" (John 19:30), the concluding portion of the eonian times began. The repudiation of sin is achieved through the sacrifice of Christ. It is not realized, however, until God vivifies all mankind, becomes All in all, and reconciles all estranged beings throughout the universe, accomplishing all "through the blood of [Christ's] cross" (Col.l:20; cp. Eph.l:10)."

    "Another consideration is that the definite article ("the") does not appear here in the Greek. It is not a matter of "at the conclusion of the eons" at all, even if we are constrained to put it this way in the Version, not yet having found a better solution while still preserving good diction. The idea is not to point to a particular moment, but to speak of having now entered into, or come upon, the concluding portion of the eons, which is thus set in contrast to the former or preceding portion."

    "The writer of Hebrews certainly did not know how long the present era would continue. Nor are any such considerations in view, whether in Hebrews 9 or else where in this epistle. Instead, the emphasis of Hebrews is that of the typical nature of the animal sacrifices in their representation of the sacrifice of Christ."

    "Even as the blood of calves and he-goats constituted a sufficient and effectual shelter for sin, thus also, the blood of Christ constitutes a sufficient and effectual means for the elimination of sin. If it were not for Christ's sacrifice, all would be doomed; but because of Christ's sacrifice, all will be delivered."

    "The viewpoint in Hebrews is antitypical. In other connections it may seem strange to include the rest of this eon and two more in the word 'conclusion.' Yet, when we consider the shadow, it becomes evident that the period here, however described, must include all of the time in which the sacrifice is operative, that is, until its work is accomplished." "

    "A concluding portion of a period of time need not necessarily be brief in duration. To say that it must is to confound ordinary usage with essential meaning. Besides, if the testimony of geology and astronomy is true, the first eon (prior to Genesis 1:2) may have been of such great duration that the time from the cross to the consummation actually will prove to be of relatively brief duration." [U.R., Vol. 82, p.16-22, 1991, James R. Coram]

    "..the Authorized Version will hardly excuse the rendering of Hebrews 9:26. "But now once in the end of the world hath He appeared . . ." cannot be explained on any rational grounds. Christ has appeared, but it certainly was not at the end of the world. The American Revisers change this to "the end of the age', which is very much better, so far as the word eon is concerned. But it is open to the same objection. The eons have not by any means ended even yet. Christ did not appear at either "the end of the world" or "the end of the ages". And, we may add, sin has not been "put away" in any plain, intelligible sense." (U.R., Vol 17, p.267, 1926, A.E.K.)

    "The A. V. tells us that Christ appeared "in the end of the world." This, of course, is impossible, seeing that almost two thousand years have passed since then and the end is not yet. In reality His manifestation marks the commencement of the conclusion of the eons. Just as the offering on the day of shelter, or "atonement" in Israel ushered in year in which there is cleansing of sin, so the sacrifice of Christ commences the conclusion of the eons in which sin is repudiated. A year in Israel, with its round of typical festivals, corresponds to the conclusion of the eons, in which the antitype of these festivals are found." [U.R., Vol 38, p.225, 1947, A.E.K.]

    "It is clear that His sacrifice was not at "the end of the world" (A.V.). However, the conclusion of the eon (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3) is not the absolute end, but a period of time, which is compared with harvest. The signs of the end time all occur within this conclusion. This is the key to this passage. Christ appeared at the commencement of period which will continue until the end of the eons. It differs from the previous part of the eons because of its new relation to sin, due to His sacrifice. In a sense, the sacrifice settles the question of sin for the rest of the eons, hence the word "conclusion.*
    * A more complete explanation of this passage, as rendered in the Concordant Version, is found in Unsearchable Riches, Volume 30, Number (March, 1939)." [U.R., Vol 56, p.156, 1965, A.E.K.]

    "This verse is designed to amplify the grand object of His one appearing, that is, Christ appeared once to offer Himself as a sacrifice in order to put away sin at the end of the ages or eons...Repudiation [of sin] is defined as to have no place for [sin] (Keyword Concordance, p. 246). When the last enemy, death, is put out of business, abolished, discarded, made unproductive (1 Corinthians 15:26), then sin will find no place anywhere in His world since sin reigns only in death (Romans 5:20). In other words, when God abolishes death, He also leaves no place for sin. This He will do at the end of the ages or eons. It is for this purpose that Christ has been manifested in His earthly career; and it is His sacrifice at Calvary's cross, His sacrifice for sin that makes sin's repudiation certain, since He is the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29)."

    "...The actual teaching of the passage can be verified as follows: Some current versions of this verse teach that Christ appeared at the end of the ages. Yet according to these same versions Paul, writing years after this appearing, speaks of ages to come (Ephesians 2:7). Thus two "authorized" versions make the apostle Paul flatly contradict what the writer of Hebrews said. Again, the devotees of versions which are not concordant and consistent find themselves involved in another conflict that cannot be reconciled, since their versions teach that Christ "appeared at the end of the ages" while, at the same time, their theology teaches that the ages never end."

    "...The Scriptures distinctly and emphatically teach that the eons had a beginning and will also have conclusion. The Scriptures point to time when the eons were not yet in existence, and they point to time when the eons shall pass away." [U.R., vol 60, p.120-122, 1969, F.N.P.]

    "This one verse (26) of Hebrews 9 takes us, in one sweeping statement, from the disruption of the world to the conclusion of the eons. Though Christ, as Saviour, is now manifest, sin will not be completely eliminated from the universe until the conclusion of the eons. But the acceptance by God of Christ's offering has made that elimination inevitable. But this wonderful scripture gives further proof that, just as the curtain which veiled God's presence, was rent in the earthly temple at the precise moment of Christ's death, so that spiritual veil which obstructed the approach of the celestials to God, was likewise rent; and there is nothing now, save their own spiritual blindness, to prevent them entering into the presence of God, and offering Him the "logical divine service" which is His due from all His creatures. (U.R., Vol 68, p.259-60, 1977, John H. Essex)

    "The conclusion of the eons is likewise involved in obscurity in our versions. They suggest that this august event has already occurred at the manifestation of Christ (Heb.9:26). However the words may be translated, the argument of the passage is clear. The high priest went in every year with the blood of others. Not so Christ. He sacrificed Himself once. There was no sacrifice on His part from the disruption, when sin entered, until His manifestation. Neither will there be any further offering needed all the way to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is repudiated. The single suffering of Christ suffices both for the past and future, from sin's entrance to its exit, from the disruption to the conclusion of the eons, when sin is put away. There is a sense in which sin is "put away" potentially or in the experience of the believer, but in the sense here indicated, as the antithesis of the disruption, it can refer only to the actual removal of sin itself —which will occur at the very time indicated, the conclusion of the eons."
    2. The Eon of the Eons

    "The Times of the Eons are the scene of sin. They record its entrance and foretell its exit. They had a definite Beginning and will have a definite Consummation...The grand infinitudes of time before the beginning and after the consummation have much in common, chiefly that in the beginning God is All was All: in the consummation He will be All in all. Sin is entirely absent. This cannot be said of any of the eons." The Divine Calendar

    "The power of the blood of Christ will prevail until sin is repudiated. This is at the conclusion of the eons."

    "...(1 Cor. 2:7:before the world [ages]" and Heb. 9:26: "end of the world", or, as Scofield says, "consummation of the ages" which, by the way, should refer to the future putting
    away of sin, not the time of Christ's sacrifice)" [U.R., Vol. 61, 1970, p.9, 270, A.E.K.).

    The following website articles elaborate upon this interpretation of Heb.9:26 in more detail:

    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.5, 1913-14, p.199-203, Alan Burns
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.6, 1914-15, p.258-268, Vladimir Gelesnoff
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.17, 1926, pgs.265-276, Adolph E. Knoch
    Unsearchable Riches magazine, Vol.30, 1939, pgs.109-116, Adolph E. Knoch
    Unsearchable Riches

    (10) Some introductory historical remarks are required for the next point. The New Testament quotes from the Greek OT much more often than the Hebrew OT. An Old Testament in the Greek language accepted by the early church was known as the translation of Theodotian (see urls below for details). There was also the early Greek OT known as the LXX or Septuagint which has significant differences with the translation of Theodotian.

    THEODOTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

    "Theodotion's translation of Daniel supplanted the original LXX version which was quite different. The Book of Hebrews (11:33=Daniel 6:23) and Revelation both agree with Theodotion's translation (Origen's Hexapla contained these translations).
    "IBSS - The Bible - Old Testament: Septuagint

    "[Theodotian's] translation, however, is seemingly "quoted" in Heb. 11:33 and several times in Revelations! This strongly suggests that Theodotion's version was based upon either a lost Greek translation which competed with the LXX or upon a "revised" LXX...Theodotion's version of Daniel is the one officially accepted by the Church and usually printed in modern editions of the LXX..."St. Pachomius Library: SEPTUAGINT

    The book of Daniel is closely associated with the book of Revelation which contains our many references to the phrase "the ages of the ages". It seems, from the quotes above, that John was more likely to have used a Greek OT in harmony with that of Theodotian's rather than the LXX.

    In Daniel 12:3 this Greek OT of Theodotian, unlike the LXX, speaks of the "eons and further" [αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι]. This is in the context of resurrection spoken of in verse 2, which recalls the resurrections of the book of Revelation. Could Daniel's reference to "the eons and further" be to a time beyond "the eons of the eons" spoken of in Revelation? Both make reference to eons, but Daniel speaks of what is beyond "the eons". It seems Daniel may be speaking of a time after that of John's Revelation references to eons, which would make "the eons of the eons" of a finite duration. If John had wished to convince his readers of the idea of endless eons, readers who may have been familiar with Daniel 12:3, it seems that speaking of mere "eons of the eons" was not the way to do it.


    (11) John of Damascus (676-749 AD) writes of "limitless(απειρους/apeirous) aeons of the aeons". If "eons of the eons" was universally understood as meaning forever and ever or endlessness, would there be a need to add the word "limitless" to it?
    απειρους — с греческого на все языки

    the use of aion in Plato and John of Damascus
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0675-0749,_Ioannes_Damascenus,_De_Fide_Orthodoxa,_EN.pdf
    Iohannes Damascenus - Expositio Accurata Fidei Orthodoxae (MPG 94 0789 1227) [0675-0749] Full Text at Documenta Catholica Omnia
    http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....a_Fidei_Orthodoxae_(MPG_94_0789_1227),_GM.pdf

    Similarly Philo, a contemporary with Jesus, spoke of an unlimited eon. Heleena Keizer wrote "Ton apeiron aiona, "the unlimited aion", is Philo's paraphrase of the more-than-aion expression in Exodus 15:18 describing God's kingship. Before Philo, ton apeiron aiona is attested only once, in a fragment from Aristotle where it has the (non-philosophical) sense of "all, endless time" (chapter II text [33])...The present passage appears to use the phrase in the same sense, while emphasizing the notion of contunuity by the words "not for one moment ungoverned" and "uninterrupted"." ("Life Time Entirety: A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo", Helena M. Keizer, 2010, p.212).
    Life Time Entirety. A Study of AION in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo

    http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρον/el/xx/
    http://translate.academic.ru/ἄπειρα/el/xx/

    If God wanted to clearly & unambiguously teach endless punishment in the Scriptures, why, then, did Revelation 20:10 not speak of torment for "endless[apeiron] ages"?

    (12) The word aion literally means age, or eon. Why would the Lord's word say eons (Rev.20:10) if He meant endlessness? If endlessness was meant, then the Greek language of the time had a number of ways of expressing it unambiguously. In addition to apeiron, there were the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) to express the idea of endlessness. In Luke they are spoken of God's kingdom. Likewise:

    σὺ δὲ ὁ αὐτὸς εἶ καὶ τὰ ἔτη σου οὐκ ἐκλείψουσιν (LXX; Psa.102:27, God's years have "no end")
    27But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. Psa.102:27, Brenton LXX trans.
    But you remain the same, and your years will never end. (Heb.1:12b)

    ****************************


    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Forum
    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://lovewins.us/
     
  6. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We can hope that punishment is not forever and we can hope that all will eventually be saved, but to assume that such is true is probably not a good idea.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (A.) That's debatable. For example, both the RC & EO allow one to hope for universalism, though many don't just hope but believe it in spite of their church's position. Moreover many more would accept universalism if they weren't entirely ignorant of its positions, or were fully informed of the view. BTW, many others have rejected endless torments in favor of endless annihilation.

    (B.) It may have been true through the dark & middle ages when few people had bibles of their own & wouldn't have been able to read them if they did & to speak otherwise would have meant punishment or death. Not a point that is in favor of anti-universalism.

    (C.) In the early church, when they could read the Scriptures in their original languages, rather than English language KJV pro Endless Infernalism club mistranslated clones, there were, at times at least, many (or perhaps a majority) who rejected endless punishment:

    (1.) "Even Augustine, the champion of eternal torment said in his day, "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c. 29). St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." " Appendix Five

    "It is in vain, then, that some, indeed very many, make moan over the eternal punishment, and perpetual, unintermitted torments of the lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture..." Augustine's ENCHIRIDION, Chs. 97-122

    The context of the Augustine (c. 354-430 AD) quote in chapters 111 & 112 includes fallen angels & implies their ultimate salvation.

    (2.) "St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: "The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." "(The Ascetic Works of St. Basil, pp.329-30...Conc. 14 De. fut judic)." Universalism and the Salvation of Satan

    "...many people...adhere to the conception of the end of punishment..." (Basil)

    (Basil’s short Regulae for his monks, 267 (PG 31,1264,30–1265,47) & by Symeon Metaphrastes, Or. 14 De iudicio 3,551–552. As quoted & cited in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p.352).

    If there is an end of punishment to those punished, then what is left but universal salvation, even of devils?

    (3) John Chrysostom (c. 349-407 A.D.) "There are many men...thinking that hell is...temporary, not eternal..." (Homilies on Second Thessalonians 3 (NPNF 1 13:384)).


    (4.) "St. Jerome (c. 342-420 A.D.), the author of the Vulgate Latin Bible...writes: "I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." The Church Fathers on Universalism

    Jerome says:

    "I know that many people interpret the king of Nineveh as the devil, saying that he, at the end of the world (on the grounds that no rational creature made by God should perish), descending from his pride, would repent, and be restored to his former place." [Commentary on Jonah 3:6-9] https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/46905/Amy_Oh.pdf?sequence=1

    Whether or not the reference to Ninevah is a misrepresentation by Jerome against his opponents, such as Origen, is unknown. What is known is that Origen (c. 184-254 AD) based his doctrine of universalism on the Scriptures, his favorite passage being 1 Cor.15:28:

    "This final phrase is a clear reference to 1Cor 15:28, Origen’s and Nyssen’s favourite passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine.34" (page 15)

    "The eventual submission of humanity to God is a reference to Paul’s eschatological revelation in 1Cor 15:24–28, which is also a very universalistic passage, concluding with the presence of God as “all in all.” This will be one of the favourite passages of Origen in support of the doctrine of apokatastasis." (page 94)

    "Thus, at the end of all aeons, in the eventual apokatastasis, all will come to be, no longer in any aeon, but in God the Trinity, and in turn God will be “all in all.” The meaning of this Pauline sentence (1Cor 15:28, Origen’s favourite passage in defence of apokatastasis) is explained especially in Princ. 3,6,2–3. Here, Origen first deduces the definitive eviction of evil from the presence of God “all in all,” given that it is impossible to admit that God may be found in evil, as I have already pointed out; then, he examines:

    " "What is this “all” that God will be “in all”? […] It means that God will be “all” even in every individual creature. And God will be “all” in these creatures in the sense that whatever the rational intellect, freed from any dirtiness of sin and purified from any taint of evil, will be able to perceive, grasp and think, all this will be God […], and so God will be all for this intellect […], because evil will not exist any more: for such intellect, God, untouched by evil, is all. One who is always in the Good and for whom God is all, will no longer wish to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil […] After removing every sense of evil, only he who is the sole good God will become all for the creature returned to a state of soundness and purity […] and not only in few or in many, but in all God will be all, when at last there will be no more death, nor death’s sting, nor evil, most definitely: then God will truly be “all in all.” " " (page 168)

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    The Christian Doctrine of <i>Apokatastasis</i>

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

    "Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

    I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

    It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

    Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

    The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In
    SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

    Scholars directory, with list of publications:

    Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I tried four online translators all agree this means "indeed how many."
     
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  11. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  13. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Every time someone has shown you where the Greek or Hebrew word was translated "Forever" you have shown it actually means some measure of time.
    Now you use a word translated to "forever" and all of a sudden it actually means forever.
    I call that inconsistent doctrine.
    Later in verse 35-36 of that same chapter God is saying it is wrong to take away someone's right.
    If a person rejects God, is God still going to force him to live in His presence for ever? No, He won't.
    These people who hate the light, who hate God are going to live in His presence willingly? No, they won't.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It says that in the version i quoted. That doesn't mean i approve of the translation. It's you Damnationists who are believing that's a correct translation. Yet it shows a contradiction with the doctrine of endless punishment.

    That's talking about rights on earth between men. Men have no rights - even to exist - before God. It's all His gracious gift in love.

    If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

    God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

    Why not? All believers were once enemies of God, Who is love & light. Why couldn't the lost repent, change their minds & "live in His presence willingly"? Didn't you? Do you ever sin? Still have sin in you? Evil, carnal worldly thoughts & desires?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  15. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is. And God says it is wrong to subvert a man's right.
    Is God going to do something He said was wrong for us to do?

    I wish that were true, but it is not.
    We only get more chances in this life.
    Once we die, we are in eternity, time is no more for us.
    This doctrine of yours is dangerous in that it allows people to put off repentance.
    Show one Scripture that says so?
    This statement is based on a lie, therefore universal salvation is false.

    Yes, but I have been changed by the Blood of Jesus because I accepted His Gift.
    I am being changed because I continue to believe.
    I will be changed and I will receive a new body in the Resurrection because I believe in what Jesus did for me.
    If I hadn't of accepted His free Gift by faith, I would still be a hell bound sinner.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Using this convoluted reasoning since the angels were capable of rebelling and being thrown out of heaven why wouldn't anyone who was "forced to be in heaven without their consent" not have the ability to rebel as the angels did?
    Please show me any scripture which specifically states this? I can't find any verses which say "Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them." Nor can I find any verses which say "Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments." Hoping you can help me out here.
    Of course anyone who is being tormented in flames, literal or otherwise, will want to get out? How is that different from the threat, in this life, of being tormented, in flames. Which supposedly makes God a monster.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God kills, yet says thou shalt not kill.

    Your unsupported opinions, not Scripture.

    Not required since the point was a logical one in response to your logical statement without Scripture backup.

    Universalism scriptures have been posted already, see:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Read the last two sentences of what i posted.



    Not required since the point was a logical one in response to a logical statement without Scripture backup.

    Universalism scriptures have been posted already, see:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


    Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like Islam's Allah. Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

    Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  19. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    I showed multiple Scriptures stating a decision must be made in this life.
    Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    According to this last verse, the chance to repent may be taken away in this life.
    And if it is taken away in this life, there will be no chances after death.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no reference there to this life.

    Dieing is not endless punishment.


    A better translation is:

    10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

    Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved.

    The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be saved...at that time. No reference is made to how long they will be punished, if such is corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

    OTOH compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
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