For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

[Doug Melven]

There's no reference there to this life.

"Today" refers to today. Not tomorrow, not after you die. Today is this life.

Dieing is not endless punishment.

You are deflecting the Scripture, not answering it.
I was quoting that Scripture to say a person only has this life to repent.

A better translation is:

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12 that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Because they did not receive the love of the truth (Jesus - John 14:6) they will be deluded into/or believing a lie.

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved.

The prodigal son was never lost. He was always a son.

OTOH compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

This passage is referring to the 70 year captivity that Israel was under at the time, not to eternity.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Nobody is automatically saved, they must repent and believe.

 

[ClementofA]

"Today" refers to today. Not tomorrow, not after you die. Today is this life.

There's no "after you die" in the passage. Today will still be "today" when tomorrow arrives or the millennium arrives or the new earth. If tomorrow was excluded, then "today" only applies to the day that was written in Scripture. Not to us "today" 2000 years later.

You are deflecting the Scripture, not answering it.
I was quoting that Scripture to say a person only has this life to repent.

I said, Dieing is not endless punishment. Obviously dieing is not a denial of after death repentance either.

The prodigal son was never lost. He was always a son.

The point is that the Greek word for "perish" is the same for the "lost" prodigal son. So it can refer to a condition which is reversible or a person who is still savable.

Do you suppose those who are spending their inheritance on harlots are saved? The passage says he was "lost" & "dead". Then became alive & found. Are those dead in sins saved?

This passage is referring to the 70 year captivity that Israel was under at the time, not to eternity.

And yet it says the Lord will not cast off forever, in reference to the sons of men. Thus opposing and contradicting the endless torments teaching.

Nobody is automatically saved, they must repent and believe.

Romans 5:18-19 does not deny repentance & faith. That is the way to obtain the life & justification it speaks of:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says is "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

 

[Doug Melven]

There's no "after you die" in the passage. Today will still be "today" when tomorrow arrives or the millennium arrives or the new earth. If tomorrow was excluded, then "today" only applies to the day that was written in Scripture. Not to us "today" 2000 years later.

The passage says, "Today, while it is still called today". Once you are dead, there is no more today for the dead, just judgment.

Obviously dieing is not a denial of after death repentance either.

Yes it is.

The point is that the Greek word for "perish" is the same for the "lost" prodigal son. So it can refer to a condition which is reversible or a person who is still savable.
Do you suppose those who are spending their inheritance on harlots are saved? The passage says he was "lost" & "dead". Then became alive & found. Are those dead in sins saved?

And this all happened while the prodigal son was still breathing. He didn't die in the sense of stopping breathing. But he said he would have if he did not repent and go back to the Father.

And yet it says the Lord will not cast off forever, in reference to the sons of men. Thus opposing and contradicting the endless torments teaching.

What was being said had nothing to do with endless torments, therefore it does not apply.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

So much for your "Special salvation" doctrine if everybody is going to believe.

 

[ClementofA]

What was being said had nothing to do with endless torments, therefore it does not apply.

The Lord will not cast off forever...refutes the endless torments teaching.

So much for your "Special salvation" doctrine if everybody is going to believe.

Each in his own order (1 Cor.15:22-28).

As in Adam all die

 

[Der Alte]

The Lord will not cast off forever...refutes the endless torments teaching. . .

Funny how עולם/olam means "age(s)" until it suits your purpose for it to mean "forever."

 

[2tim_215]

God kills, but does not "murder". Men were "killed" by the Jews according to God's instruction (none of this, however, in the New Testament). There's a big distinction between "killing" and "murdering". I believe that there is "justified Killing" but that there is no justification for murder.

 

[ClementofA]

Funny how עולם/olam means "age(s)" until it suits your purpose for it to mean "forever."

See post 14 to get the context of my statement. It helps with understanding a discussion to actually read it.

 

[ClementofA]

God kills, but does not "murder". Men were "killed" by the Jews according to God's instruction (none of this, however, in the New Testament). There's a big distinction between "killing" and "murdering". I believe that there is "justified Killing" but that there is no justification for murder.

If God never breaks one of His own commandments, does He keep the one that says "love your enemies"? Will that apply to the afterlife?

 

[2tim_215]

If God never breaks one of His own commandments, does He keep the one that says "love your enemies"? Will that apply to the afterlife?

Jesus said that and it's instructions to us. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay".Judgment, which is God's strangest work belongs to God, not to us during this life. He intends to judge those who have committed evil to His children (over 70M Christian martyred throughout the centuries for their belief in Him) which will not go unpunished.

 

[ClementofA]

Jesus said that and it's instructions to us. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay".Judgment, which is God's strangest work belongs to God, not to us during this life. He intends to judge those who have committed evil to His children (over 70M Christian martyred throughout the centuries for their belief in Him) which will not go unpunished.

Scripture tells us how Love Omnipotent "punished" Saul (who became the apostle Paul) for his persecution, murdering & Inquisitions against Christians.

Jesus set the example on the cross, "Father, forgive them". Likewise when Stephen was martyred.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus said that and it's instructions to us. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay".Judgment, which is God's strangest work belongs to God, not to us during this life. He intends to judge those who have committed evil to His children (over 70M Christian martyred throughout the centuries for their belief in Him) which will not go unpunished.

Of course God's strangest work belongs to Him. It's pretty obvious that if it it was up to his 'children', they'd torture those 70 million murderers, and billions more, for eternity. Many of which, never even heard the name of Jesus. But a carnal mind can justify anything horrific. Just as long as they have their hell fire insurance policy paid up....totally...by the one who died for ALL.

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture tells us how Love Omnipotent "punished" Saul (who became the apostle Paul) for his persecution, murdering & Inquisitions against Christians.
Jesus set the example on the cross, "Father, forgive them". Likewise when Stephen was martyred.

Do any of your proof texts for "Love Omnipotent" involve unrighteous people being forgiven after death? Is there a single verse in the Bible which states that an evil person will be forgiven after death? Did any of the Romans or Jewish leaders who were forgiven at the cross turn around and go back to doing exactly what they had done before?

 

[ClementofA]

Is there a single verse in the Bible which states that an evil person will be forgiven after death?

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)

Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age. In fact it will be:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

Begin quote

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)
Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages (i.e. eons) [nonsense, DA] to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility [supposition, DA] that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age. In fact it will be:
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.[Not all, DA]"

End

This is a tacit acknowledgement that there is not one single verse in the entire Bible that anyone will be saved after death.

 

[ClementofA]

This is a tacit acknowledgement that there is not one single verse in the entire Bible that anyone will be saved after death.

Quite the contrary.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

Quite the contrary. ...

If that is true then post one verse which clearly states that someone, anyone who is not saved while alive will be saved after death. tick tock.

 

[ClementofA]

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Hillsage]

Is there one verse in the bible that says anyone born 'before Jesus died for them' was saved, before they died? IOW from the time of Adam until the death of Jesus who could even BE SAVED eternally by the death of Jesus, before they died? Their only 'hope' then, is the same hope that Clement proclaims for all now..."in the ages to come."