for the agnostic.....

[Clizby WampusCat]

really? because I let it sit for three days, so you could simmer.

No, because you dismissed it with a post 3 minutes later saying I was not serious. You never addressed it.

So, warning you of impending danger is a threat?
hmm....

No. Because God created the danger, didn't he? Waring a blind person of upcoming danger of a cliff ahead is a warning of impending danger. That is not what God is doing. God created the danger and says if you don't believe in me for forgiveness of sins I will send you to the hell I created. It is the same thing as an abusive husband telling his wife not to make him hit her.

Ok.
have a nice life. Hope that fall you'll take doesn't catch you too far off guard.

Your concern for me is dripping in this post.

Yeah, I don't respond to threats from demons. they've been threatening God's people for millennia.

What threats, What demons?

They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.

I do however pay attention to warnings when they come from YHVH. I know his warnings are for my well-being.

No, as I said above you are in an abusive relationship.

 

[ISteveB]

This is the main reason you don't understand what InterestedAtheist or myself is talking about. I was a christian and met all of your criteria for God to reveal himself to me.

This is the problem....

You think it's someone else's "criteria."

If you don't care, then it won't matter until it's too late to do anything about it, and you'll have screwed yourself out of an eternity in paradise.

This is entirely about whether or not you want to know God/Jesus.

It's ceased being about your justifications for why you experienced failure.

the bible says that it's possible to actually know. And it gives us the means/actions/choices so we may know.

I am not alone, most atheists I know are atheists because they took their faith seriously and sought after answers and evidence. We know what you say is untrue because we have tried it and it failed. This is the reason your line of reasoning here is not convincing.

So..... your joining the cast and crew of lemmings running off a cliff is my fault?
Really?

You've plainly stated that at one point in your life, you sensed the presence of God.
You then said AFTERWARDS you read the bible, and decided with your own intellect that it didn't "meet the standard" of evidence.

Two problems I see in the bible with your idea of WHAT is the standard of evidence.

the bible is telling us HOW to know God.
It provides us with the actions we are to take to know God.

It further tells us that failure to do what God has said.... will result in your not knowing God.

I.e., Jesus, James, John, Peter, Moses, the prophets, Paul all tell us in various ways what James said so succinctly.

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.


The problem here is that just reading words in a book was never supposed to be evidence.

DOING what those words say and getting the stated/defined results IS the evidence.

I've been reading the bible for 43+ years, and I never once was ever taught that just reading the bible was evidence.
I was taught that evidence is the results of doing what the bible says.

I even saw that in my physics and math classes.
Do the results match the claims?
If not, then a number of things must be taken into account.
1- did I do what it actually stated?
2- did I misunderstand what it stated, and therefore did it wrong?
3- am I just going to quit, and blame my own laziness on the fact that I didn't do what it stated correctly?

Nobody gets a degree in anything if they quit because they didn't like how it works.

Inconvenience or level of difficulty doesn't fly here.

Each and every single one of us are in the same boat.

So, if you want evidence, then DO WHAT JESUS SAID.

You will NEVER find evidence simply by reading a book. And if anyone ever told you that's how you would find evidence.... even if they did so "sincerely", "as they understood it", "believed that's how it worked", etc..... they were wrong.....

Which is EXACTLY why Jesus told us to pay attention, and watch out for false teachers. Why Paul told us to test all things, abhor that which was evil, and cling to that which was good. Why Luke tells us in Acts that the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true or not.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I am still waiting for a response to my post 68.

This is the problem....

You think it's someone else's "criteria."

If you don't care, then it won't matter until it's too late to do anything about it, and you'll have screwed yourself out of an eternity in paradise.

Now there is no criteria? You provided the criteria earlier. I do care about truth and that includes if God exists.

This is entirely about whether or not you want to know God/Jesus.

It's ceased being about your justifications for why you experienced failure.

the bible says that it's possible to actually know. And it gives us the means/actions/choices so we may know.

Yes and I wanted to know more than anything and took the actions the bible says. You just don't want to deal with these facts.

So..... your joining the cast and crew of lemmings running off a cliff is my fault?
Really?

I never said anything was your fault.

You've plainly stated that at one point in your life, you sensed the presence of God.
You then said AFTERWARDS you read the bible, and decided with your own intellect that it didn't "meet the standard" of evidence.

Two problems I see in the bible with your idea of WHAT is the standard of evidence.

the bible is telling us HOW to know God.
It provides us with the actions we are to take to know God.

It further tells us that failure to do what God has said.... will result in your not knowing God.

I.e., Jesus, James, John, Peter, Moses, the prophets, Paul all tell us in various ways what James said so succinctly.

21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.


The problem here is that just reading words in a book was never supposed to be evidence.

DOING what those words say and getting the stated/defined results IS the evidence.

I've been reading the bible for 43+ years, and I never once was ever taught that just reading the bible was evidence.
I was taught that evidence is the results of doing what the bible says.

I even saw that in my physics and math classes.
Do the results match the claims?
If not, then a number of things must be taken into account.
1- did I do what it actually stated?
2- did I misunderstand what it stated, and therefore did it wrong?
3- am I just going to quit, and blame my own laziness on the fact that I didn't do what it stated correctly?

Nobody gets a degree in anything if they quit because they didn't like how it works.

Inconvenience or level of difficulty doesn't fly here.

Each and every single one of us are in the same boat.

So, if you want evidence, then DO WHAT JESUS SAID.

You will NEVER find evidence simply by reading a book. And if anyone ever told you that's how you would find evidence.... even if they did so "sincerely", "as they understood it", "believed that's how it worked", etc..... they were wrong.....

Which is EXACTLY why Jesus told us to pay attention, and watch out for false teachers. Why Paul told us to test all things, abhor that which was evil, and cling to that which was good. Why Luke tells us in Acts that the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true or not.

Sigh. Respond to post 68, I deal with a lot of this there. Your stawman arguments are getting old.

 

[ISteveB]

I am still waiting for a response to my post 68.

Pretty simple--- you know the bible is false because of personal experience.
You have what you want.
I'm sure glad I don't take your word for it.
If I followed your logic, I never would've succeeded at studying physics at the university.
One such class/example I had was a physics lab in the upper division. We used a michelson-morley device to check the speed of light.
I set it all up, got it working, and did my experiment. I got back a result that was orders of magnitude slower than the previously determined speed of light. I told my professor and he said I did it wrong.
He then told me to do it again, in spite of my protestations.
I did, and I found that I was in fact wrong.
So, when people like you tell me that you found it to be false, I am reminded of my lightspeed experiment in my upper division physics lab course.

So.... You're wrong. Do what Jesus said.... AGAIN.

Now there is no criteria? You provided the criteria earlier. I do care about truth and that includes if God exists.

You don't pay attention very well.... do you.
Is this a standard atheist routine? Because I have to say, every atheist I've ever engaged..... they use this as their standard excuse.... It'd be one thing if it was just on this forum, then I'd think you might have a valid leg to stand on. But for the past 20 years.... It's like atheists attend the same jr high school classes.

That's not what I stated. YOU stated---

I was a christian and met all of your criteria for God to reveal himself to me.​

It's not MY Criteria.
I'm provided you what the bible states. The bible has been around for 1925 years at least, so you're arguing the wrong argument.

Yes and I wanted to know more than anything and took the actions the bible says. You just don't want to deal with these facts.

If you wanted to do what the bible said..... did you do what the bible said to do?
And if so, what things does the bible say to do, in order to know that God is real, true, and knowable?

I never said anything was your fault.

No. You stated

I am not alone, most atheists I know are atheists because they took their faith seriously and sought after answers and evidence. We know what you say is untrue because we have tried it and it failed. This is the reason your line of reasoning here is not convincing.​

Sigh. Respond to post 68, I deal with a lot of this there. Your stawman arguments are getting old.

He has plainly stated he will make himself knowable to all who come to him, and place their trust in Jesus.

I know this to be untrue from personal experience.​

Nobody said you had to. As a matter of fact-- I don't want you to take my word for it. I want you to take the time to do what Jesus said for yourself, and he'll demonstrate himself to you. Exactly as he said he would in John 14:20-24.

Again, I know this to be untrue from personal experience.

​

That pretty much cinches post 68.

Since you know that your failures are definitive proof that God's not real, or true, that you cannot know God..... this pretty much kills the point for any further discussion.

I still am reminded of my Michelson-Morley experiment in my physics lab course. My failure to obtain the correct light speed, the first round of experiments did not in fact that hundreds of thousands of scientists before me were wrong.

Nor does your failure to know God prove that hundreds of millions of Jesus followers are wrong.

It does however prove that you simply gave up.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

What follows is a rather long reply that repeats the main point many times.
I hope that you will understand that main point. Just in case, let me spell it out for you:
This is a debating forum, not a church for you to preach in.

Okay, here goes.

Ironic..... The words strung together in a complete sentence, and then a series of sentences strung together in a coherent paragraph..... seemed pretty understandable to me.

A bit of advice: don't boast about your lack of reading comprehension.

It's a pity you never understood that god demonstrates himself to all who seek him with a whole heart.

We have a whole forum here of people who sought God with a whole heart for decades and never found Him. So your words are demonstrably falase.

This failure to understand is why you never met him, and instead think that your ignorance is somehow a superior position.

The position I hold is one of simple common sense: I don't believe in things unless there is reason to do so. I'm not necessarily saying that your position is inferior to me. I assume that you have the same attitude, but just think there is reason to believe in God.
Surely you don't say that you believe in God without any good reason, do you?

A veteran of what?
This forum or of military service?
I may a newcomer to this forum, but I've been talking with people about Jesus, and the bible since the late 90's. I began a focused and directed series of discussions with atheists and agnostics in October 2003.
So..... telling me your a veteran means nothing unless you can tell me what you're a veteran of.

I told you.
Look on the left.
You'll see my profile picture. It's not me, it's a character from television that it amuses me to think of.
Underneath is my username, InterestedAtheist.
Underneath that is the word "Veteran."
This means I've been on this forum for a long time. See?

That's generally the excuse offered up by people who think that a relationship can be turned into an argument, and then won, as though it was a wrestling match.

I'm not interested in a relationship with you, which is why I'm on a debating frum.

If you want to argue, I'll provide you with a series of books to read, and then you can argue with the authors. Most of them are still alive.

Again: debating forum.

If you'd heard of it before, I find myself wondering--- why are you not following Jesus?
And if you have no interest in following Jesus, why are you throwing what life you have remaining away trying to argue with strangers about matters which are beyond argumentation?

Am I to take it that you've never heard the arguments for Islam before?
Because if you have, and you found them unconvincing and decided to remain a Christian, then you understand exactly what I mean. Or, if I have to spell it out for you: I've heard the arguments for Christianity many times before, and found them unconvincing.

And as astonishing as it may appear to you--- I never thought you were waiting for me.
Like so may others, I'm simply passing through. Jesus said we're to deliver the message and move on. If they don't want to listen to you, wipe the dust off your feet as a testimony against them, and keep going.

This is a debating forum, for believers to defend their beliefs rationally. You are in the wrong place.

So..... if you don't like the truth, don't want to deal with the truth, and would rather act all pompous, like some kind of special somebody, a veteran, as you call it..... then just say so.

I don't think it's me who's being pompous and wasting people's time.

Considering that I've been at this job for a number of decades now, by all means.... tell me.
What is my job here?
Do you know what your state of being is here?
Because your state of being is far more important than what you think my job is.

I thought you said you'd read the Statement of Purpose. If you had, you'd know what your job here is, if you wish to stay here. You don't have to, you know.

Ok. Why don't you provide a definition for what YOU think an apologist is, and the job description of the apologist. I know what the bible says the job is. So..... you obviously think you know better than the bible.

And no dictionaries. I have plenty of dictionaries from which I can use the world's definition.

Since you clearly believe that you're the forum's thought police, I want YOUR ideas.

Uh - okay. I thought you said you're read the Statement of Purpose, though, which is there to answer exactly this question.
An apologist is a person who can defend the beliefs of their religion using reasoned argument and evidence.

I'm not really concerned that you think truth is a mistake. I've stated truth. It's entirely on you how you'll handle the truth.
It's the same with all of us. We all have to deal with the truth and then decide how we'll respond to it.

No, as I've stated before, your job on this forum is to provide arguments, evidence and logic to maintain your position. If you don't want to do that or can't do that, fine. But then you are breaking the forum rules, in spirit, if not in letter.
Look. Steve. May I call you Steve?
Let's just look at the reason this forum was set up. Here it is for you to read: MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
Let's forget about the fact that I'm an atheist and you're a Christian for a moment. Forget that we both think the other person is wrong about everything. Instead, please just consider me a fellow user of the forum, and take it to heart when I tell you: you're behaving improperly and being impolite. Is that really what you want?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Pretty simple--- you know the bible is false because of personal experience.

No, I am not claiming the entire bible is false. I am claiming that these verses (and others) are false based on personal experience.

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jer 29:10.

Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found;
Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him. Psalms 32:6

“I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. Proverbs 8:17

You have what you want.
I'm sure glad I don't take your word for it.
If I followed your logic, I never would've succeeded at studying physics at the university.
One such class/example I had was a physics lab in the upper division. We used a michelson-morley device to check the speed of light.
I set it all up, got it working, and did my experiment. I got back a result that was orders of magnitude slower than the previously determined speed of light. I told my professor and he said I did it wrong.
He then told me to do it again, in spite of my protestations.
I did, and I found that I was in fact wrong.
So, when people like you tell me that you found it to be false, I am reminded of my lightspeed experiment in my upper division physics lab course.

So.... You're wrong. Do what Jesus said.... AGAIN.

How did your teacher know you were wrong? He knew because that experiment has been repeated over and over with converging results, also there are other ways to determine the speed of light which converges on the same number. There is nothing like this for finding God.

You don't pay attention very well.... do you.
Is this a standard atheist routine? Because I have to say, every atheist I've ever engaged..... they use this as their standard excuse.... It'd be one thing if it was just on this forum, then I'd think you might have a valid leg to stand on. But for the past 20 years.... It's like atheists attend the same jr high school classes.

What is the purpose of this?

That's not what I stated. YOU stated---

I was a christian and met all of your criteria for God to reveal himself to me.​

It's not MY Criteria.
I'm provided you what the bible states. The bible has been around for 1925 years at least, so you're arguing the wrong argument.

Which is your criteria or your interpretation of the criteria. Other Christians have different criteria to find god. Why should I believe your interpretation over theirs?

If you wanted to do what the bible said..... did you do what the bible said to do?
And if so, what things does the bible say to do, in order to know that God is real, true, and knowable?

Refer to those verses above. I sought God with all my heart for months and I received nothing.

No. You stated

I am not alone, most atheists I know are atheists because they took their faith seriously and sought after answers and evidence. We know what you say is untrue because we have tried it and it failed. This is the reason your line of reasoning here is not convincing.​

He has plainly stated he will make himself knowable to all who come to him, and place their trust in Jesus.​

How can someone put trust in someone before they even know they exist?

​

Since you know that your failures are definitive proof that God's not real, or true, that you cannot know God..... this pretty much kills the point for any further discussion.

Sigh. I have never said God is not real, I have said I do not believe God is real.

I still am reminded of my Michelson-Morley experiment in my physics lab course. My failure to obtain the correct light speed, the first round of experiments did not in fact that hundreds of thousands of scientists before me were wrong.

Nor does your failure to know God prove that hundreds of millions of Jesus followers are wrong.

It does however prove that you simply gave up.

Nope. The speed of light is as proven of a fact as we can get so if your number is different then most likely you did something wrong. Knowing that God exists cannot be demonstrated to be true. Argument from popularity is a false argument but if you want to play that game the fact is that more people don't believe in your God than do. Why should I not believe them?

 

[ISteveB]

What follows is a rather long reply that repeats the main point many times.

hmm.... I'm sure I'll survive. the question is more--- will you.

I'm often told I write rather lengthy posts, and may shortly find I need to break this up into smaller sections. As a matter of fact. That’s what I’m going to do. This will be a 3 part post, because I actually want you to get what I’m saying. Otherwise, it's a painfully long 9 page, 3600+ word post

I hope that you will understand that main point. Just in case, let me spell it out for you:

This is a debating forum, not a church for you to preach in.

That you think I thought it was a church is what's amusing here. Just how great is your contempt for church?

Furthermore, your apparent having heard the message of the gospel before obviously hasn't helped you understand.


Allow me to state this in the most concise terms possible.


For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.


It really doesn't get any simpler than this....

Stated from the guy who had several decades of engaging in the distribution of the message, and in the end, lost his head (literally decapitated), because he wouldn't recant, or capitulate with the power mongers who thought they knew better. So.... why would I think you know better if the Roman Emperor didn't know better?

God has explicitly chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save those who believe him. This was done so, explicitly because God's wisdom is infinitely greater than our own. Indeed, we read further down in 1 Corinthians 1, that the foolishness of God is wiser than the greatest wisdom of man.

It's akin to the difference between the strength of a microbe, compared to the strength of the human.

In an arm wrestling match, the microbe will lose every time.

the way the microbe succeeds, is by following its design. So, I'm following the design parameters with which the gospel was made.

It's the difference between a win, and success.

Okay, here goes.
A bit of advice: don't boast about your lack of reading comprehension.

I'm not the one having a problem with reading comprehension here.

You demonstrate poor reading comprehension in your relationship statement. Come on IA. Don't accuse me of things you do with great alacrity.

We have a whole forum here of people who sought God with a whole heart for decades and never found Him. So your words are demonstrably falase.

falase......

Well.... aside from the rushed typing, your failures, the failures of others for decades speaks more to your and their failures than it does the falsehood of what I've stated.

And they are not my words.

They're actually YHVH's words.

Jeremiah 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says YHVH



So, telling me that YHVH is lying, because you and others have failed, after myself, and hundreds of millions, indeed, billions, over the course of millennia, have demonstrated them true, speaks more to your own failures, and the falsehoods of your failures.

The position I hold is one of simple common sense: I don't believe in things unless there is reason to do so. I'm not necessarily saying that your position is inferior to me. I assume that you have the same attitude, but just think there is reason to believe in God.

Surely you don't say that you believe in God without any good reason, do you?

yeah... common-human sense.

I tried common sense when it came to God stuff, and I found it failed.

I then took the time to learn God's common sense, and found it 100% reliable, and operable, and works exactly as it says.

It wound it being the same for mathematics sense, and physics sense, and chemistry sense, programming sense, etc....

I recall my early studies in mathematics, I was struggling, and didn't understand why. I asked a tutor, and they tutored me with the statement--- math is a foreign language. You need to learn the rules, language, vernacular, etc... of math in order to do it.

I later learned that the same rule applied to physics, to programming, and following Jesus too.

So.... telling me that you used human sense to engage in the life of God..... that is a screaming claim to ignorance of God's Sense.I.e., you did not do it God's Way. You're looking at it your way. That my dear fellow human being is a massive fail.

Jesus was really clear about this--- If anyone WANTS to be my follower, let them pick up their cross, deny themselves daily, and follow me.

In Proverbs 3, we're told--- trust in YHVH with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he shall direct your paths.


So.... by telling me that you and others here have done something, but used common sense, and never found God, you're telling me that you did not seek God with a whole heart. You're telling me that you used your common sense. Your OWN sense. Jesus said to deny yourself daily.....

THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER FOUND HIM....

You did not deny yourself. You did not pick up your cross.

Paul tells us in Colossians 3:1-4, that we're dead, and raised with Jesus. That our life is hid with Christ, in God. That when Jesus, who is our life, returns, we will return with him in glory.

So.... picking up one's cross means acknowledging that you are dead. That you assign your life, to be Christ's life.

Following one's own common sense is a declaration that you did not do these things.


Here's some ancient, simple, and true wisdom for you.


The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,

But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[ISteveB]

I told you.

Look on the left.

You'll see my profile picture. It's not me, it's a character from television that it amuses me to think of.

Underneath is my username, InterestedAtheist.

Underneath that is the word "Veteran."

This means I've been on this forum for a long time. See?

hmm..... so. your longevity on this forum is supposed to impress me..... why?

This isn't meant to be disrespectful of you as a human, but when someone tells me such things, I find myself thinking---

Yeah?

And?

So?

I've been talking with people on various forums, and the old bbs servers since 1998.

The copyright of this forum's software only dates back to 2010. So.... veteran means you've been here how long ?

In 2010, I had already been up to my neck in unrestricted dialogue with atheists, agnostics, and others, on a large variety of topics, at a major newspaper's forum since 2006, and had expanded by 2012 to other papers around the country. I'd been on an atheist forum starting in 2003, and then started the newspapers in 2006.... I'd been on Netscape's forums dating back to 2000, and AOL's chatrooms to 1998, and to 1997. So, my total time on the internet is now 23 years.

This doesn't include time on the MSDN newsgroups/forums discussing programming, craft/trade forums discussing repair work, or project ideas around the home with craft professionals, handyman forums, regarding repairs on household items, appliance repair forums discussing learning how to repair appliances that had broken down, auto-repair forums for the newer vehicles we owned, etc.... throughout that time.

So..... having experienced great success in such engagements, I'm not really bothered when people don't like the things I have to say.


As far as user name, I selected my real name, with my real picture, because I don't believe in hiding.

I think that's a Jesus thing. If we happened to pass each other in the street, you'd have opportunity to engage me in a face to face dialogue, and ask me about my posts, or other things you were curious about regarding me.

Not having a real picture of you, or a real name.... and you came up to me, I'd be left wondering why.

And in today's American society, where violence is increasingly the norm..... it places in me in a position of heightened guardedness.

I'm not interested in a relationship with you, which is why I'm on a debating frum.

hmm..... it's a pity your reading comprehension isn't as good as you appear to believe it is.

I never said anything about a relationship between you and I.

I explicitly stated that:

Biblical Christianity is not a philosophical construct which can be debated, it's a relationship between us and God, on an individual basis, which is engaged in.


So, you either want to be involved in a relationship with God, as an adopted child, and the brother of Jesus.... or you don't. If you don't, a collection of arguments in the form of a debate will not convince you that you're wrong. They will however just further harden your opposition against God, and ensure your destruction in that place nobody likes talking about, and annihilation is not part of that one. Those who go there will exist in a state of sheer agony forever.

It's why Jesus came. He died, and rose again so people may enjoy eternal life in a paradise prepared explicitly with them in mind.


therefore... please... PAY ATTENTION.

Don't make mocking comments about my reading comprehension, and then do it even worse.

It shows poor comprehension, and a disconnect from the conversation.

Again: debating forum.

so..... what topics of debate are allowed on your forum?

I see you said below that you're just a fellow user, so what makes you think your version of debate is the sole approved version?


Furthermore, if you think your version is the sole approved version, why would you then try to manipulate others into dialoguing on your terms? That sounds rather egocentric to me.

Am I to take it that you've never heard the arguments for Islam before?

Because if you have, and you found them unconvincing and decided to remain a Christian, then you understand exactly what I mean. Or, if I have to spell it out for you: I've heard the arguments for Christianity many times before, and found them unconvincing.

Islam..... I don't follow islam because I'm not interested in committing suicide, and murdering large numbers of infidels, while yelling--- allahu akbar. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what Islam teaches. Because from what I've read, the ISIS group--- they're the true believers of islam. Them, and those people who murder others in the name of their god. It's ironic that not even muslims can agree on the true version of islam.


And your having found them unconvincing is your problem. Since you've found them unconvincing, I find your presence on a christian forum quite amusing, even disingenuous. You obviously did not find them unconvincing enough. Because if you did--- you'd be out living life, instead of seeking to silence others who don't think like you. It's your presence here, and your need to act like the neighborhood police that tells me you do think that it's very convincing, but prefer your sin, and self-life, to the life of Jesus. Which is pretty much what Jesus said.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


As He said--- you don't want to come to the light, lest your lifestyle choices be exposed as the evil they are. So.... you hide.... And as self-impressed as you are with what you perceive as the sheer elegance, and erudition of your self-impressed skills.... it's still a mask, and this post of yours exposes that it's just a mask. One that apparently you need to readjust each time a new poster shows up to talk about Jesus.


You see, when I was living the atheist lifestyle, I did what I wanted, didn't care about the consequences, lived as I pleased, and just didn't think about such matters as this one.

And had YHVH not interrupted my life, I would've continued with that lifestyle, and based on now past observations, I'm pretty sure I would've wound up in the grave a long time ago.

So..... please don't try to deceive me with your failed experiment routine. I've listened to atheists play that card too many times, and have seen its failures over, and over and over and over and over...........

..................................................................................

................................................................................................

........................... and over.......................................................................and over again.


Oh.... did I say--- and over again?

This is a debating forum, for believers to defend their beliefs rationally. You are in the wrong place.

As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue. Similarly, threads started by Christians should contain an argument why Christian beliefs are true and correct. All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith. All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence.


Curious..... I'm not seeing debate in here.


I do however see where I have in fact presented my points with a means through which evidence can be obtained.

So, the problem here isn't that my posts are without evidence, you're just saying you don't like what I have to say, and are seeking to hide that behind what you want the rules to say.


Furthermore, if you think that your claim to fame is failure, as a valid identifiable argument against the christian faith, I'm not seeing it.

You know the people who I know have failed at mathematics?

People who quit.

You know the people who I know have failed at physics?

People who have quit.

You know the people who I know who have failed at computer programming?

People who've quit.


You know the people who I know have failed at meeting God?

People who quit.


You know the common theme to all those?

People who did not take the time to learn the correct means at doing them.


You know what's so strange about that?

Jesus said--- unless you become as a little child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

I.e., he made it simple enough for a child to enter God's Kingdom.


So.... when people tell me that they need to debate something a child can grasp.... I find myself wondering---- what planet does this person live on?

they claim to have heard it all before, and been unconvinced. Yet they think that it's something that can be disproven by an academic debate.


So.... here's where I'm going to ask you a question....


Do you really think that something which is simple enough for a child to get is somehow going to be successfully disproven by oratory eloquence?


As I learned across the past 43 years.... there's only one way to prove it's true, and only one way to prove it's a lie/false.


Do what Jesus said.


Do nothing.

I don't think it's me who's being pompous and wasting people's time.

and yet here you are acting like the forum's thought police, deigning to tell someone whom you think is inferior to you..... you have to follow what I say, or else.

that sounds pretty pompous to me.

I thought you said you'd read the Statement of Purpose. If you had, you'd know what your job here is, if you wish to stay here. You don't have to, you know.

Yes, actually I had read the statement of purpose. From what I read, it was a requirement to get permission to post in here.

So...... Perhaps you should spend less time seeking to manipulate others into your mindset, and focus on your own issues.

 

[ISteveB]

Uh - okay. I thought you said you're read the Statement of Purpose, though, which is there to answer exactly this question.

An apologist is a person who can defend the beliefs of their religion using reasoned argument and evidence.

I've found that getting definitions from others helps to clarify expectations, and ideas.

And based on your statement, I am "defending my beliefs, using reasoned argument and evidence" exactly as the bible says I am to do.

So, your problem here is not with me, but with your own ideas and expectations.

Do you have an approved source, and methodology that I'm allowed to use?

Or am I allowed to do it in the manner which I've been taught--- in spite of its obvious disavowal by you?


You see.... God has a pretty basic program laid out.

He sees a problem.

He doesn't like the problem.

He's developed a solution.

He's calling to us, to invite us to recognize the problem, acknowledge that the problem exists, and then learn the solution, through what he himself says is the foolishness of preaching. He acknowledges the sheer madness of the solution, and yet has choosen the solution, because it solve the problem in the most complete, and thorough manner possible.

At which point, the problem is no longer his, but ours, and he acknowledges that too, but has made it clear that he's not able to make it any simpler a solution than it is-- because it's as simple as it can possibly be.


the problem is that sin killed us, and we're dying. there's no other means to solve this problem.

The solution is Jesus.

All God is asking is that we acknowledge our sin, turn to him from that sin, and place our trust in Jesus.

No, as I've stated before, your job on this forum is to provide arguments, evidence and logic to maintain your position. If you don't want to do that or can't do that, fine. But then you are breaking the forum rules, in spirit, if not in letter.

And here's that pompousness thing..... You think far too highly of yourself, and your opinions.

I am providing arguments, evidence, and logic, to maintain my position.


This just demonstrates to me that you don't see the arguments, evidence, and logic that I use as valid.

Which is why you're an atheist.

Your approval is not a requirement for the methods, means, and materials I use. If it was, then this would be your forum, where all the staff is paid by you. And having actually been on REAL atheist forums before, I've learned, noted, and observed that atheists don't talk bible talk, because it challenges their beliefs. They prefer confirmation bias talks--- repeating the same old ideas over and over again, so they can feel comfortable in their beliefs of unbelief.

If I ever want to go insinuate myself in such an environment again, I already know where to go.

But thank you for telling me what I am and am not allowed to do, say, and post.

Look. Steve. May I call you Steve?

That is my name.

Since you don't have a real name posted, I'll address you as IA. Or, maybe as Interested, or as Iath, or some variation thereof. It'll change over time I'm sure.

Let's just look at the reason this forum was set up. Here it is for you to read: MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose

Let's forget about the fact that I'm an atheist and you're a Christian for a moment. Forget that we both think the other person is wrong about everything. Instead, please just consider me a fellow user of the forum, and take it to heart when I tell you: you're behaving improperly and being impolite. Is that really what you want?

Since your user name is Interested Atheist, I find it pretty much impossible to separate you from your user name.


I think that your statement that you believe I'm wrong about everything speaks more to you than it does me. I haven't said I think you're wrong about everything. Just about Jesus. And that's only because God says your wrong about Jesus/God.

We haven't had any other discussions, so I have no idea what you think, know, don't know, work-experience, etc....

So, telling me that you think I'm wrong about everything--- that my dear fellow human being is solely a YOU thing.



Really?

Because I thought that was the whole point if this interaction--- you're the "Veteran" kahuna, and I'm supposed to bow to your superior magnificence, and no other means, and methodology will be tolerated. That IS the whole point of your monologue here, isn't it?

Ironic... I thought it was you who was behaving improper, and acting impolite.


So, if you want to demand that I follow your interpretation of the rules, guidelines, protocols, etiquette, etc..., you're going to have to take a different tact. Playing "veteran" kahuna doesn't fly with me.

I'm not your groupie, nor your follower. I actually have someone else whom I follow, and it's him whom I discuss.


If you want to discuss other topics, then ask. Don't deign to tell me that I'm not allowed to use millennias' old means and methods to making the truth known.

Especially when Jesus said it's simple enough for a child to get.

 

[ISteveB]

No, I am not claiming the entire bible is false. I am claiming that these verses (and others) are false based on personal experience.

Yeah.... when someonetells me they failed, and they're not saying why, or what their process was, when I ask.... that's just telling me that you didn't want to know, so you didn't follow through.

When hundreds of millions have experienced success for millennia, just how do you think I'm going to view your statements?

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jer 29:10.

Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found;
Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him. Psalms 32:6

“I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. Proverbs 8:17

And?
Ever read Isaiah 59:1-3?
How about 1 John 1:5-2:2?
Matthew 11:25-30?
Philippians 4:6-9?
Luke 9:23-25?
So.... telling me that you didn't experience God when God says he will give us a heart to know him, and we will find him when we seek him with a whole heart, and numerous others..... It really does raise all kinds of questions about what you actually did. And not telling me details (most likely because the root cause will be found out, and it'll look poorly on you), only raises more questions, and results in your veracity and integrity being called into question.
This is one of those childhood--- whodunit issues. The parent tells the child to do something, and it doesn't get done. So the questions start, and the child keeps responding--- I dunno. It wasn't me. and numerous other one liner, shortly worded, self-justifications.
I'm guessing that you're an adult, and so I will not play games with you.
You either want to know God or you don't. God makes this simple enough for children. So much so that Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:3--- unless you become as a little child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So.... when I read that, and I read your comments about not meeting God--- I see an individual who refused to become as a little child.
and then when I read what you say about specific verses being false..... that's telling me that you did not do what they said. You then use that failure to justify your belief that it's false.

You can either be, and experience justification with God, or maintain your own innocence. With one, you win, and the other you lose. And the loss is eternal.

How did your teacher know you were wrong? He knew because that experiment has been repeated over and over with converging results, also there are other ways to determine the speed of light which converges on the same number. There is nothing like this for finding God.

Experience! 2 decades of experience.
And yes. there is something like this for finding God.
Jesus made it really clear.

16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

and

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

What is the purpose of this?

To try to understand why you used it.
Such a tactic doesn't work, so I wanted to point out the sheer immaturity I see when I read what you'd posted to me.

Which is your criteria or your interpretation of the criteria. Other Christians have different criteria to find god. Why should I believe your interpretation over theirs?

If I did not copy the passages as they are written, and just used my own words to state them, then I'd agree with this.
It's not interpretation.
Peter even tells us in his 2nd letter---

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.​

In fact, this statement of yours, it tells me that you're deliberately choosing to disavow reading comprehension, and seek to avoid culpability.

So, using that claim.... it's another sign of immaturity. There's a word for it, but most people take great offense at it.
A means to justify yourself, while appearing erudite in the process.

This one doesn't fly with me. You're more than capable of reading for yourself.
You can see for yourself what the words say. Or do you really expect me to believe that each word used, strung together in the order they are, in their respective sentences, to make up those paragraphs actually something other than what they are saying?

Refer to those verses above. I sought God with all my heart for months and I received nothing.

How can someone put trust in someone before they even know they exist?
​

​

Then explain the process. Give me a reason to believe you. Because I have 4 millennia of documentation, and experience which says otherwise.

Sigh. I have never said God is not real, I have said I do not believe God is real.

And He's saying he'll give you the means-- a new heart--- to know he is real. Jeremiah 24:7.
He's stated that he will save to the uttermost, ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7:25
Jesus said-- I will not turn away anyone who comes to me. John 6

Nope. The speed of light is as proven of a fact as we can get so if your number is different then most likely you did something wrong. Knowing that God exists cannot be demonstrated to be true. Argument from popularity is a false argument but if you want to play that game the fact is that more people don't believe in your God than do. Why should I not believe them?

How was it proven?

Did you prove it, or did you just accept, without question what a stranger told you?
Because that class--- I'd accepted, without question, what I was told up until then, and then I was assigned-- we all were--- to do the experiment ourselves, with the same apparatus that all others before us, and since, have used to corroborate the claim.


And yes. God can be demonstrated to be true.
You just refuse to find out.
We who follow Jesus enjoy engaging him on a daily basis.
In Philippians 4:6-7, we learn how to get rid of our anxieties, and be surrounded by God's peace in our hearts and minds.

In Isaiah 26:3-4, we learn how to remain in constant peace.
same with Philippians 4:8-9. In there, we're told how to enjoy God's presence--- all the time.
In Isaiah 30:15, we read how we can know salvation, as well as confidence, and quietness of being.
In Romans 8:4-8, we learn how we can actually live in obedience to God's Law.
Paul tells us yet again that by living a life of Love, we can fulfill the law, in Romans 13:8-10.
In 2 Peter 1:2-13, we find out how we can become partakers of God's Divine Nature, and escape the corruption that is in this world because of evil desires. Subsequently, we learn how we are able to experience great success in our walk with Jesus.

I can keep going for days on end here.
Peter tells us in that passage from above--- God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who has called us by his own glory and virtue.

So..... it is indeed possible to actually know God, and become his adopted son or daughter.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yeah.... when someonetells me they failed, and they're not saying why, or what their process was, when I ask.... that's just telling me that you didn't want to know, so you didn't follow through.

This is not a logically sound conclusion.

When hundreds of millions have experienced success for millennia, just how do you think I'm going to view your statements?

You are forgetting the hundreds of millions that are non believers as well.

And?
Ever read Isaiah 59:1-3?
How about 1 John 1:5-2:2?
Matthew 11:25-30?
Philippians 4:6-9?
Luke 9:23-25?
So.... telling me that you didn't experience God when God says he will give us a heart to know him, and we will find him when we seek him with a whole heart, and numerous others..... It really does raise all kinds of questions about what you actually did. And not telling me details (most likely because the root cause will be found out, and it'll look poorly on you), only raises more questions, and results in your veracity and integrity being called into question.

I sought God will all my heart as the passage says. You won't believe me because you think the bible is infallible which you cannot provide sufficient evidence for.

This is one of those childhood--- whodunit issues. The parent tells the child to do something, and it doesn't get done. So the questions start, and the child keeps responding--- I dunno. It wasn't me. and numerous other one liner, shortly worded, self-justifications.
I'm guessing that you're an adult, and so I will not play games with you.
You either want to know God or you don't. God makes this simple enough for children. So much so that Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:3--- unless you become as a little child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

I sought God with all my heart for a long time. Believe me or not.

So.... when I read that, and I read your comments about not meeting God--- I see an individual who refused to become as a little child.

More moving the goal posts. Now you are adding in I must be like a child. I have been through this before no matter what I tell someone they will find one thing that they disagree with and tell themselves that is why they are not a christian.

In the end it does not matter.

Does God want me to believe in him?
Can God convince me He exists?

No matter how you answer these questions it still leaves it as Gods fault as to why I do not believe He exists.

and then when I read what you say about specific verses being false..... that's telling me that you did not do what they said. You then use that failure to justify your belief that it's false.

Yes, because you believe the verses are true. So of course they cannot be wrong, right? Demonstrate that the verses are true then we can talk.

​

To try to understand why you used it.
Such a tactic doesn't work, so I wanted to point out the sheer immaturity I see when I read what you'd posted to me.

And I see your lack of understanding what makes good epistemology.

If I did not copy the passages as they are written, and just used my own words to state them, then I'd agree with this.
It's not interpretation.
Peter even tells us in his 2nd letter---

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.​

In fact, this statement of yours, it tells me that you're deliberately choosing to disavow reading comprehension, and seek to avoid culpability.

Oh my goodness. I can go to 10 different Christians and get 10 different interpretations of these verses. Why should I believe yours?

So, using that claim.... it's another sign of immaturity. There's a word for it, but most people take great offense at it.
A means to justify yourself, while appearing erudite in the process.

Demonstrate that the Bible is the word of God and we will talk.

This one doesn't fly with me. You're more than capable of reading for yourself.
You can see for yourself what the words say. Or do you really expect me to believe that each word used, strung together in the order they are, in their respective sentences, to make up those paragraphs actually something other than what they are saying?

Then why are there differences of opinion on every christian doctrine?

​

Then explain the process. Give me a reason to believe you. Because I have 4 millennia of documentation, and experience which says otherwise.

So do I.

How was it proven?

Did you prove it, or did you just accept, without question what a stranger told you?
Because that class--- I'd accepted, without question, what I was told up until then, and then I was assigned-- we all were--- to do the experiment ourselves, with the same apparatus that all others before us, and since, have used to corroborate the claim.

Because it has been verified by millions of actual scientists by different methods and it stays consistent. If you don't like scene then OK but the process converges on truth more than the bible ever can.

And yes. God can be demonstrated to be true.
You just refuse to find out.
We who follow Jesus enjoy engaging him on a daily basis.
In Philippians 4:6-7, we learn how to get rid of our anxieties, and be surrounded by God's peace in our hearts and minds.

Can He be demonstrated to be true to anyone other than yourself? Then demonstrate Him to me?

In Isaiah 26:3-4, we learn how to remain in constant peace.
same with Philippians 4:8-9. In there, we're told how to enjoy God's presence--- all the time.
In Isaiah 30:15, we read how we can know salvation, as well as confidence, and quietness of being.
In Romans 8:4-8, we learn how we can actually live in obedience to God's Law.
Paul tells us yet again that by living a life of Love, we can fulfill the law, in Romans 13:8-10.
In 2 Peter 1:2-13, we find out how we can become partakers of God's Divine Nature, and escape the corruption that is in this world because of evil desires. Subsequently, we learn how we are able to experience great success in our walk with Jesus.

I can keep going for days on end here.

Until you show that the bible is true more bible verses means nothing to me. Remember I care bout truth.

So..... it is indeed possible to actually know God, and become his adopted son or daughter.

You just cannot show He exists to anyone else.

 

[ISteveB]

This is not a logically sound conclusion.

Only one problem with that. According to Isaiah 55:

8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.​

So... whose logic? Man's? the finite, constrained to live on a tiny planet, on some backwoods solar system, in a smaller galaxy up of untold billions of stars, most larger than ours, in a neighborhood of hundreds of millions, if not billions of galaxies, in a universe of an unknown size?
And according to the God who spoke it all into existence- Psalm 33:6-9-- in Isaiah 40:12--- he holds the entirety of the cosmos in the span of his hand.... And you're going to tell me that it doesn't fit your comprehension of logic?

You are forgetting the hundreds of millions that are non believers as well.

Nope.

Jesus said--- strive to enter in the narrow gate, for many will seek to enter, and will not be able.
Luke 13:23 And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.​

So... haven't forgotten a single person.

I sought God will all my heart as the passage says. You won't believe me because you think the bible is infallible which you cannot provide sufficient evidence for.

I sought God with all my heart for a long time. Believe me or not.

Not according to what you say below here.
For someone who studied the bible, and didn't find it convincing, your statement below regarding the becoming a child, and goalpost moving--- you are batting 0.000.

More moving the goal posts. Now you are adding in I must be like a child. I have been through this before no matter what I tell someone they will find one thing that they disagree with and tell themselves that is why they are not a christian.

It's always been there. Jesus said it while he was here on earth. Matthew 18:3.
So, this makes me wonder if you ever actually paid attention to when you claimed to have read the bible.
So.... moving goal posts? Not even remotely. The goal post has remained the same for millennia!
Telling me this only shows you were not paying attention in the first place.
Which raises the issue of--- are you sure you sought him with a whole heart?

In the end it does not matter.

You'll think otherwise when you get there should you, in the end, choose wrongly.

Does God want me to believe in him?
Can God convince me He exists?

HE plainly states---

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

And

“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;​

and

“For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”​

So.... you tell me... based on these 3 passages, does he want you to believe him?

No matter how you answer these questions it still leaves it as Gods fault as to why I do not believe He exists.

Well then, duly noted. According to Malachi 3:16, he's documented this in his books, and will be talking with you about it on the day of judgment.

Yes, because you believe the verses are true. So of course they cannot be wrong, right? Demonstrate that the verses are true then we can talk.

And why do you think I believe the verses are true?
Do you think that it just might be that i believe them to be true, because I've spent 43 years doing them?
Or do you think that your lack of experience is what truth is?

And I see your lack of understanding what makes good epistemology.

yeah, says the individual who refuses to answer questions.

Oh my goodness. I can go to 10 different Christians and get 10 different interpretations of these verses. Why should I believe yours?

I didn't need you to. You however clearly need me to believe you.
Furthermore--- it's your eternity.

Demonstrate that the Bible is the word of God and we will talk.

I already have. You keep dismissing it, and refuse to even explain what you did to not know.

Then why are there differences of opinion on every christian doctrine?

Human nature.
It's called--- being made in God's Likeness and Image.

So do I.

Not giving me a reason to believe you tells me that you don't actually want to be believed. Further demonstrating that you're not interested in dealing with this. To which I can only ask--- why are you even here?

Because it has been verified by millions of actual scientists by different methods and it stays consistent. If you don't like scene then OK but the process converges on truth more than the bible ever can.

Millions, eh....?
Engineers never go far enough to actually know.
Chemists don't get taught it.
Neither do biologists.
and according to a recent Physics Today magazine article, there are somewhere between 360,000 to 964,000 physicists.
so.... who are the other--- millions?
Then, do you have any idea why the physicists actually know what the speed of light is?

We actually did the experiments. We followed the instructions provided, and did what we were told, and verified what they claimed!
No different from a Jesus follower doing what Jesus told us, what his original followers told us, and then verified what he claimed.

Can He be demonstrated to be true to anyone other than yourself? Then demonstrate Him to me?

Until you show that the bible is true more bible verses means nothing to me. Remember I care bout truth.

You just cannot show He exists to anyone else.

Which do you want....
an argument that you'll dismiss, or God to show you himself that he exists?

Personally, I'd prefer God himself show me.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I've found that getting definitions from others helps to clarify expectations, and ideas.

And based on your statement, I am "defending my beliefs, using reasoned argument and evidence" exactly as the bible says I am to do.

So, your problem here is not with me, but with your own ideas and expectations.

Do you have an approved source, and methodology that I'm allowed to use?

Or am I allowed to do it in the manner which I've been taught--- in spite of its obvious disavowal by you?


You see.... God has a pretty basic program laid out.

He sees a problem.

He doesn't like the problem.

He's developed a solution.

He's calling to us, to invite us to recognize the problem, acknowledge that the problem exists, and then learn the solution, through what he himself says is the foolishness of preaching. He acknowledges the sheer madness of the solution, and yet has choosen the solution, because it solve the problem in the most complete, and thorough manner possible.

At which point, the problem is no longer his, but ours, and he acknowledges that too, but has made it clear that he's not able to make it any simpler a solution than it is-- because it's as simple as it can possibly be.


the problem is that sin killed us, and we're dying. there's no other means to solve this problem.

The solution is Jesus.

All God is asking is that we acknowledge our sin, turn to him from that sin, and place our trust in Jesus.






And here's that pompousness thing..... You think far too highly of yourself, and your opinions.

I am providing arguments, evidence, and logic, to maintain my position.


This just demonstrates to me that you don't see the arguments, evidence, and logic that I use as valid.

Which is why you're an atheist.

Your approval is not a requirement for the methods, means, and materials I use. If it was, then this would be your forum, where all the staff is paid by you. And having actually been on REAL atheist forums before, I've learned, noted, and observed that atheists don't talk bible talk, because it challenges their beliefs. They prefer confirmation bias talks--- repeating the same old ideas over and over again, so they can feel comfortable in their beliefs of unbelief.

If I ever want to go insinuate myself in such an environment again, I already know where to go.

But thank you for telling me what I am and am not allowed to do, say, and post.






That is my name.

Since you don't have a real name posted, I'll address you as IA. Or, maybe as Interested, or as Iath, or some variation thereof. It'll change over time I'm sure.





Since your user name is Interested Atheist, I find it pretty much impossible to separate you from your user name.


I think that your statement that you believe I'm wrong about everything speaks more to you than it does me. I haven't said I think you're wrong about everything. Just about Jesus. And that's only because God says your wrong about Jesus/God.

We haven't had any other discussions, so I have no idea what you think, know, don't know, work-experience, etc....

So, telling me that you think I'm wrong about everything--- that my dear fellow human being is solely a YOU thing.



Really?

Because I thought that was the whole point if this interaction--- you're the "Veteran" kahuna, and I'm supposed to bow to your superior magnificence, and no other means, and methodology will be tolerated. That IS the whole point of your monologue here, isn't it?

Ironic... I thought it was you who was behaving improper, and acting impolite.


So, if you want to demand that I follow your interpretation of the rules, guidelines, protocols, etiquette, etc..., you're going to have to take a different tact. Playing "veteran" kahuna doesn't fly with me.

I'm not your groupie, nor your follower. I actually have someone else whom I follow, and it's him whom I discuss.


If you want to discuss other topics, then ask. Don't deign to tell me that I'm not allowed to use millennias' old means and methods to making the truth known.

Especially when Jesus said it's simple enough for a child to get.

I'm sorry, Steve. I did try to read through your three posts. I got three quarters of the way through the first one before I decided that it wasn't really worth my time answering.

You've been given a friendly warning that you're preaching on a debating forum, instead of debating. You've been given another friendly warning that you're being impolite in doing so. You wish to ignore both of these warnings. Fine. Well, in that case, I'm off to talk to some other people who are actually here to debate, because that's what this forum is about.

As for you, I hope you learn to stick to the rules and don't get banned.

Take care.

 

[ISteveB]

I'm sorry, Steve. I did try to read through your three posts. I got three quarters of the way through the first one before I decided that it wasn't really worth my time answering.

You've been given a friendly warning that you're preaching on a debating forum, instead of debating. You've been given another friendly warning that you're being impolite in doing so. You wish to ignore both of these warnings. Fine. Well, in that case, I'm off to talk to some other people who are actually here to debate, because that's what this forum is about.

As for you, I hope you learn to stick to the rules and don't get banned.

Take care.

You too.

When people make this kind of a statement, I've learned over the past 20 years they do so because they are not able to control the discussion.

So, yeah, no surprise there.

I did just see a rather interesting statement by a mathematical physicist.

If they need an atheist for a debate, they go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use.


As I considered that, I realized that atheism only has value in the realm of the speculative, and is worthless in the realm of reality.

So, you take care too.

My prayer for you is that you recognize the truth of Jesus and engage him on his terms.
I look forward to seeing you in God's Kingdom.

 

[Rodan6]

You too.

When people make this kind of a statement, I've learned over the past 20 years they do so because they are not able to control the discussion.

So, yeah, no surprise there.

I did just see a rather interesting statement by a mathematical physicist.

If they need an atheist for a debate, they go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use.


As I considered that, I realized that atheism only has value in the realm of the speculative, and is worthless in the realm of reality.

So, you take care too.

My prayer for you is that you recognize the truth of Jesus and engage him on his terms.
I look forward to seeing you in God's Kingdom.

I read the last few pages of your discussion with InterestedAethist and was impressed with your argument of "doing" as the way to find God. It really is the only way to find Him. So many Christians fail to follow the teachings of Christ. Perhaps their faith is such that they believe the claim of Christianity is sufficient as insurance against poor choices.

On the same vein however, I have come to believe that many agnostics and so-called atheists will one day find salvation because they choose to follow Jesus' teachings (even if they fail to recognize it). Many souls will choose Him on that fateful judgement day because their faithful indwelling spirit led them and they willinging followed that path. God will sort such things out on that day. I have observed the Spirit at work in many people over the years and sometimes we can see the fruits of that labor in the choices that they make. I am convinced that gates of heaven are wide open to the honest doubter.

 

[Par5]

Yeah.... when someonetells me they failed, and they're not saying why, or what their process was, when I ask.... that's just telling me that you didn't want to know, so you didn't follow through.

When hundreds of millions have experienced success for millennia, just how do you think I'm going to view your statements?



And?
Ever read Isaiah 59:1-3?
How about 1 John 1:5-2:2?
Matthew 11:25-30?
Philippians 4:6-9?
Luke 9:23-25?
So.... telling me that you didn't experience God when God says he will give us a heart to know him, and we will find him when we seek him with a whole heart, and numerous others..... It really does raise all kinds of questions about what you actually did. And not telling me details (most likely because the root cause will be found out, and it'll look poorly on you), only raises more questions, and results in your veracity and integrity being called into question.
This is one of those childhood--- whodunit issues. The parent tells the child to do something, and it doesn't get done. So the questions start, and the child keeps responding--- I dunno. It wasn't me. and numerous other one liner, shortly worded, self-justifications.
I'm guessing that you're an adult, and so I will not play games with you.
You either want to know God or you don't. God makes this simple enough for children. So much so that Jesus tells us in Matthew 18:3--- unless you become as a little child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So.... when I read that, and I read your comments about not meeting God--- I see an individual who refused to become as a little child.
and then when I read what you say about specific verses being false..... that's telling me that you did not do what they said. You then use that failure to justify your belief that it's false.

You can either be, and experience justification with God, or maintain your own innocence. With one, you win, and the other you lose. And the loss is eternal.



Experience! 2 decades of experience.
And yes. there is something like this for finding God.
Jesus made it really clear.

16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.​

and

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

To try to understand why you used it.
Such a tactic doesn't work, so I wanted to point out the sheer immaturity I see when I read what you'd posted to me.



If I did not copy the passages as they are written, and just used my own words to state them, then I'd agree with this.
It's not interpretation.
Peter even tells us in his 2nd letter---

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.​

In fact, this statement of yours, it tells me that you're deliberately choosing to disavow reading comprehension, and seek to avoid culpability.

So, using that claim.... it's another sign of immaturity. There's a word for it, but most people take great offense at it.
A means to justify yourself, while appearing erudite in the process.

This one doesn't fly with me. You're more than capable of reading for yourself.
You can see for yourself what the words say. Or do you really expect me to believe that each word used, strung together in the order they are, in their respective sentences, to make up those paragraphs actually something other than what they are saying?

​

Then explain the process. Give me a reason to believe you. Because I have 4 millennia of documentation, and experience which says otherwise.



And He's saying he'll give you the means-- a new heart--- to know he is real. Jeremiah 24:7.
He's stated that he will save to the uttermost, ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ. Hebrews 7:25
Jesus said-- I will not turn away anyone who comes to me. John 6




How was it proven?

Did you prove it, or did you just accept, without question what a stranger told you?
Because that class--- I'd accepted, without question, what I was told up until then, and then I was assigned-- we all were--- to do the experiment ourselves, with the same apparatus that all others before us, and since, have used to corroborate the claim.


And yes. God can be demonstrated to be true.
You just refuse to find out.
We who follow Jesus enjoy engaging him on a daily basis.
In Philippians 4:6-7, we learn how to get rid of our anxieties, and be surrounded by God's peace in our hearts and minds.

In Isaiah 26:3-4, we learn how to remain in constant peace.
same with Philippians 4:8-9. In there, we're told how to enjoy God's presence--- all the time.
In Isaiah 30:15, we read how we can know salvation, as well as confidence, and quietness of being.
In Romans 8:4-8, we learn how we can actually live in obedience to God's Law.
Paul tells us yet again that by living a life of Love, we can fulfill the law, in Romans 13:8-10.
In 2 Peter 1:2-13, we find out how we can become partakers of God's Divine Nature, and escape the corruption that is in this world because of evil desires. Subsequently, we learn how we are able to experience great success in our walk with Jesus.

I can keep going for days on end here.
Peter tells us in that passage from above--- God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who has called us by his own glory and virtue.

So..... it is indeed possible to actually know God, and become his adopted son or daughter.

Steve, your posts quite simply suffocate people with bible verses to the point where I for one say, oh what the heck, and stop reading.
I am sure you have heard it said that the quickest way to get someone to be an atheist is to get them to read the bible.
I have read the bible and a lot of it I dismiss as just plain silly or superstitious nonsense. Other bits I just don't have the foggiest idea what it means, but there are bits that I do understand what is being said, and they are the bits that worry me most.
Those bits portray your god as being a very unpleasant character who kills in fits of anger, who even sends his own son to suffer a terrible death. I find the idea of human sacrifice to be barbaric, to say the least.
The biblical god does seem to have calmed down some when you read the new testament, but I feel he is just saving himself in order to have one final hooray on judgment day. Bet you can't wait Steve!

 

[Amittai]

Steve you are so cocky. I am completely with IA whose overly generic screen name doesn't actually pose me a practical problem (my priest didn't christen me after St Amittai).

Steve your "reason" is not the kind God asks you for. He wants you to beg Him to send people in your life to potentise your gifts so you can potentise ours. It seems to me that in starting this thread you didn't really have a purpose.

As an agnostic I claim "non-denominationality" (the nearest I seem to get to "multi-denominationality") so as not to get excluded from contributing in areas I know about. There's never been anything wrong in being agnostic and IA has stated explicity he is one too.

 

[Amittai]

Good morning OB.
It's a pity you didn't actually pay attention.
So, let me make this really easy for you ... Please read this very closely.

Thanks OB.
As stated, I've been at this for several decades now, and have actually been talking with atheists, agnostics, etc... online, for the past 2 decades, and have paid very close attention to their claims, lack of claims, ideas, lack of ideas, professions, and lack of professions. I've examined their ideas, and found them to be based entirely on a lack of knowledge, a lack of experience, and a lack of awareness, or understanding.
So, while I appreciate your telling me these things, you're the one who is perishing, and without an everlasting hope. You may indeed have a hope for this life, but once this life is over--- eternity begins, regardless of whether you think eternity is real or not. I'm just one of the guys who's been told to come to the highways, byways, alleyways, etc....
Your wedding invitation has been delivered. What you do with it is on you.

Steve your version of slapstick is inappropriate to these threads.

Why would you dare to insult Scriptures and the public?

I heard about those "weddings" you hold in the States (and south Italy). Even "alleyways" get a mention . . . Oh and life being over. (Sick slapstick alert)

So you've known millions of us better than we know ourselves - for all of a full 43 (Forty Three) lengthy and long years, and how our much thinking is not thinking, and how your no thinking is much thinking.

 

[Amittai]

...

The trouble is twofold Steve, you're not being asked, and you're not defending.

 

[Amittai]

... there are many other people in the world who also say they have first-person experiences of divinity, and whose ideas about it contradict yours directly. You can't both be right. But you can both be wrong.

Given that knowledge is partial, individuals with overlapping knowledge - which has always been the general case among humanity and anyone non-doctrinnaire in all the sciences - can both be right, which goes all the more to prove this is a non-issue (IA you are swallowing Kuhlmannist propaganda - more or less identical to Steve's - wholesale, instead of distancing yourself from it).