for the agnostic.....

[ISteveB]

It still seems to me that if Christianity is true then God is giving a lot of earnest seekers the cold shoulder.

I've long wondered that too....
from my observations, and the occasionally genuinely honest "earnest seeker's" response, they're not actually seeking God.
They're seeking religion. They're seeking to avoid God, so they dance all around it, like someone who's given instructions on where/when we can meet, and then goes all over, to every place except where/when I'd stated I could be found, and then after whatever energy/effort they were willing to invest is expended, they walk off, and start telling others--- he's not real. I followed his instructions, and never met him.
Yet, they did not follow my instructions.
I provided a very specific place/time I could be met. they went everywhere, except where I stated.

So.... this I find rather a curious claim.

Jesus was quite clear--- I will by no means turn away anyone who comes to me.

As I know Jesus to be true, and real, those who claim to seek him, but failed..... they failed by virtue of their own refusal to do what Jesus said.

 

[ISteveB]

@ISteveB
I think you're in the wrong place. Read the Must-Read statement of Purpose. This isn't the time or place for preaching.

"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs. Christians may start threads to present an argument in support of the Christian faith."

If you're not here to rationally defend your beliefs, or to start a thread to present an argument in support of the Christian faith (which is not the same as starting an argument in support of the Christian faith) then you're conceding defeat. And while it's nice to see a Christian come in and tell us that they know they don't have any reasons for believing, I don't think that's what you meant to say.

The passage from which this "present an argument" is based is

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;​

The word- reason- is the greek word-- apologia. The greek word's meaning is--- a defense.
A defense is--- the reasons I believe. The basis upon which I've come to the place of confidence in Jesus.

It's not an argument--- as in academic terms of an argument.
It's not a philosophical construct-- where ideas are academically debated, constructed, and deconstructed.

It's a relationship with God, through his son, Jesus Christ.
We've been invited to become adopted sons, and daughters of God, and the bride of Jesus.
So, this is the most intimate of relationships that exist.

The gospel is simply--- good news.

the good news is that while we were once enemies of God, because we'd violated his statutes-- what God calls Sin, He's taken on our sin, paid the price for our sin, and been raised from the dead, so we can be restored in totality. Full-relational interaction, with God, as his adopted children. All for believing what he's said regarding Jesus.

That's it. It's really THAT simple.

You can indeed try to complicate it, make it more difficult, or devolve it into that which it is not, but that means you're having a discussion about something that is entirely different, and not the same as what is presented by Jesus.

So.... if you feel as though you need some academic arguments, so you can feel superior, and win... I'll be more than happy to provide you with numerous resources. And I'm sure that you can provide an equal number of resources which you feel are valid counters to what I've presented. We can do this back and forth for years (it'll take decades to read all the books/lectures/resources/webpages/etc.... we provide one another), and you'll be no closer to the truth than you are right now.
I've simply done the work necessary to know, and have stripped all the hogwash down to its barebones minimum so you can choose, for yourself what you really want.

Jesus made this as simple as possible....

According to John 14:20-24, the following is stated.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

Which do you prefer? Decades of debate, arguments, counter-arguments, etc....
Or a simple question, and answer, directly from God himself on this matter?
I've found that like is too precarious, and brief to spend decades arguing over matters which have a simple answer that's available in moments.
This allows me to focus on more important matters, which will carry with them eternal implications, and outcomes.

 

[ISteveB]

@ISteveB , you have actually presented a good proof that your faith is flawed.

flawed according to whose standards?
Yours?
How do you know that your standard is the accurate standard against which a valid judgment or assessment may be established?

You have faith that anybody seeking God will get confirmation of the truth of God and Christianity. In fact, you claim the confirmation should come as quickly and easily as it came to you. When presented with the fact that many who seek God do not get that confirmation you seem to have no response except to repeat your original claim that everybody should get confirmation.

No. I have faith that God will do exactly as he said he would, and if someone doesn't receive what God said he'd do, they're not doing what God said is necessary.

If I go to my employer, and he tells me the instructions of what he wants me to do, and then to follow those instructions, and I'll accomplish the job, but I get something completely different from what he told me I should get.....
Where's the first place he's going to look for the reasons why my output does not match the input?

It's not going to be his instructions.... It's going to be whether or not I actually followed those instructions.

So, it's not unreasonable to do the same for someone who claims they did not get what God said he'd do.

What you should do now is to drop your claim, because it has been proven false by counterexample. Not everybody who seeks God finds God. You can believe in God still, but you need to be honest with yourself and accept that your claim is false. Maybe you misunderstood those Bible verses or took them out of context or something.

As has yours.

If I hand you a book on programming, or using a software program, or driving a car, or anything else in life, and you do not get the stated results from the book, are you actually going to expect me to believe that your counter-examples of validating falsehood are legit?
Thanks...
I can present thousands of "counter-examples" to your claimed counter-examples which demonstrate that you have chosen to validate ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and lack of awareness.

Jesus was really clear about this.

Do what he said, and you will show that you love him. As a result, God will love you, and they will come and make their home with you.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

I for one have experienced this. the failures of others are their failures. Saying that their failures of definitive proof that it's all a lie, is like saying that divorce is proof that marriage is a lie, in spite of the fact that even divorced people seek to remarry.

So.... nice try, but you're using bad logic.

 

[ISteveB]

It's not a matter of blind belief in one teaching or the other.

biblical faith is NEVER blind belief.
God never demands blind faith.
He provides us with the truth, and we choose.

"it's not likely God can be known" is self-evident in this agnostic's own life.
"I will give them a heart to know me" is not self-evident.

so..... you think that if you refuse to take the time to go to college, that it's not likely you can study college level materials?

I was a high school drop out. I hated school, and thought it was a waste of time. I grew up in the era of the Paul Simon song- Kodachrome.

the opening stanza is---

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall"​

https://genius.com/Paul-simon-kodachrome-lyrics

This was a standard in my day.

In 1997 I was diagnosed with stage 3 metastatic melanoma cancer, and following initial treatments, I found that I had the opportunity to attend college, because I could not longer ply my craft of sheet metal construction due to the danger of amputation of my left leg.

My wife had asked me not long after we married, if I'd ever won the lottery, would I consider returning to college, and getting a degree. Over the years, I thought that'd be interesting, so by the time I was on the mend from my cancer treatments, I said yes.
I got my papers, and funding in order, and began attending college. For all the loathing I felt towards high school, 20+ years earlier, I now found myself enjoying college. I eventually got an AS in Math, and when I went to the university, I studied physics. It started as a dare, but quickly became something I excelled at.
Even the dept chair told me one day that I am one of the "can do" crowd of physics students.

If I follow your logic, I should never have attended college. I should never have studied physics.
Not because it wasn't possible, but because.... well... I lacked the "self-evident" nature of having enjoyed high school, where most physics students get their start.
Indeed, I was in my early 40's when physics even came on my radar as a valid topic of interest/study.

So.... I find myself wondering..... is that going to be your justification for your life?

"My lack of experience in life is self-evident"
My failures were due to what was self-evident instead of what could have been.

following Jesus is more like an apprenticeship.
It's something that is not a short-lived event, and when you don't like what's happening anymore, you quit.

Success is not found in the short-term. It's found at the end of the long haul.

 

[Lost4words]

That's not what you said in post #12. This is what you said in post #12.


OB

Exactly! There are many who just cant be called 'lost sheep' because they are running off in a totally different direction! Willingly so. With closed ears!

 

[cloudyday2]

flawed according to whose standards?
Yours?
How do you know that your standard is the accurate standard against which a valid judgment or assessment may be established?





No. I have faith that God will do exactly as he said he would, and if someone doesn't receive what God said he'd do, they're not doing what God said is necessary.

If I go to my employer, and he tells me the instructions of what he wants me to do, and then to follow those instructions, and I'll accomplish the job, but I get something completely different from what he told me I should get.....
Where's the first place he's going to look for the reasons why my output does not match the input?

It's not going to be his instructions.... It's going to be whether or not I actually followed those instructions.

So, it's not unreasonable to do the same for someone who claims they did not get what God said he'd do.




As has yours.

If I hand you a book on programming, or using a software program, or driving a car, or anything else in life, and you do not get the stated results from the book, are you actually going to expect me to believe that your counter-examples of validating falsehood are legit?
Thanks...
I can present thousands of "counter-examples" to your claimed counter-examples which demonstrate that you have chosen to validate ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and lack of awareness.

Jesus was really clear about this.

Do what he said, and you will show that you love him. As a result, God will love you, and they will come and make their home with you.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.​

I for one have experienced this. the failures of others are their failures. Saying that their failures of definitive proof that it's all a lie, is like saying that divorce is proof that marriage is a lie, in spite of the fact that even divorced people seek to remarry.

So.... nice try, but you're using bad logic.

The divorce analogy is not applicable, because nobody claims that ALL marriages will succeed. However, you seem to have claimed that quotes such as "knock and the door will be opened to you" mean that ALL seekers will find God. In 1977 the door was opened to you almost before you knocked, but there are many others who have been knocking on the door for decades without getting an answer. You dismiss that counterexample by claiming that there must be additional requirements that they failed to satisfy. The quote simply says "knock and the door will be opened to you". There is nothing about studying computer languages or even being a good person. Many people go to their graves knocking on the door and wondering why God won't open the door.

It seems to me that the meaning of those verses must be subtly misunderstood if they were truly inspired by God. What does it mean for "the door to be opened"? Maybe it doesn't mean what we assume it means. ... Just brainstorming.

 

[Occams Barber]

Exactly! There are many who just cant be called 'lost sheep' because they are running off in a totally different direction! Willingly so. With closed ears!

LOL. I bet you can also wriggle through very narrow gaps in the fence.

 

[ISteveB]

The divorce analogy is not applicable, because nobody claims that ALL marriages will succeed.

Oh, I don't know. I think it's perfectly suited.
the gospels, and letters are chock-full of passages/warnings of people leaving, false teachers/ideas popping up, but have you ever noticed those are ignored in favor of the idea--- well, I never met God, so it must not be real/true. Well, I tried...... but nothing every happened, so it can't be real.......

It seems to me that this issue is rife with false ideas, but people are not willing to consider that they're simply wrong.

However, you seem to have claimed that quotes such as "knock and the door will be opened to you" mean that ALL seekers will find God.

that is what the passage says.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. Whosoever opens the door, I will come in, and we will dine together.

Ironically--- that passage is talking about a church on the west side of Turkey.
The scary thing is--- this is a church we're talking about. How does Jesus get outside the church, and telling them he's knocking on their door, asking to be let in?
This alone should give some credence to the idea that it's possible to claim you believe something, and yet missed it.
Especially when you're outside, complaining you were never part of it to begin with.

In 1977 the door was opened to you almost before you knocked, but there are many others who have been knocking on the door for decades without getting an answer.

Here's the part you appear to miss....
I didn't knock on God's door.... God was knocking on my door! This is what that passage says!
Jesus is standing at the door knocking.

We do read in Isaiah 55--- seek the Lord while he may be found. Call on him while he's near.
In 2 Corinthians 6, we read--- behold! Now is the time, Today is the day of salvation.....

there are other passages which seem to make it pretty clear--- if you don't respond when God is knocking, he will leave you to your devices.

You dismiss that counterexample by claiming that there must be additional requirements that they failed to satisfy. The quote simply says "knock and the door will be opened to you". There is nothing about studying computer languages or even being a good person. Many people go to their graves knocking on the door and wondering why God won't open the door.

Actually, it says---
Ask and it shall be given to you.
Seek and you shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened.

It doesn't say it'll happen right away, or soon, or some time off in the distant future.
It simply says--- ask- you WILL receive, seek- you WILL find, knock- the door WILL be opened.

It seems to me that the meaning of those verses must be subtly misunderstood if they were truly inspired by God. What does it mean for "the door to be opened"? Maybe it doesn't mean what we assume it means. ... Just brainstorming.

Well, using your logic, it doesn't mean what is says at all.

Here's a novel though for you.....

You, those who experience your experience.... you didn't get what you thought it was supposed to be, so you quit.

Jesus said--- in your patience you possess your souls.

Paul tells us--- Colossians 1:23

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

The writer of Hebrews tells us---Hebrews 3:6

but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end​

The good news is--- there's full restoration.
God says he welcomes all returnees.

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Knowing the True—Rejecting the False​

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.​

And

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

We tell you these things because we want you to experience God, and dwell with him forever-- in a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.

‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​

or.... you can have what wasn't prepared for you, or with you in mind at all.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

A kingdom prepared for you, from the foundation of the world...... Preparation, ongoing, since the foundation was laid..... millennia.....
Let's say the cosmos really is billions of years old.... just how much work do you think went into preparing a place for you which has been ongoing since before the beginning?

Or... a place which was prepared for a race of beings who wanted nothing to do with God, so he gave them the barebones, which was designed only as a prison, to prevent them from destroying what he's made for us. A place with everlasting fire. I don't know about you.... but that doesn't sound very interesting to me.


This really is the only reason we have this discussion.

 

[cloudyday2]

that is what the passage says.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. Whosoever opens the door, I will come in, and we will dine together.

Ironically--- that passage is talking about a church on the west side of Turkey.
The scary thing is--- this is a church we're talking about. How does Jesus get outside the church, and telling them he's knocking on their door, asking to be let in?
This alone should give some credence to the idea that it's possible to claim you believe something, and yet missed it.
Especially when you're outside, complaining you were never part of it to begin with.

Sorry I should have made a direct quote to avoid confusion. I was referring to Matthew 7:7 NIV
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:7 - New International Version

I didn't read the rest of your post yet. You have a lot of information there, and I am getting sleepy.

 

[Lost4words]

LOL. I bet you can also wriggle through very narrow gaps in the fence.

When you have faith in God, anything is possible...

 

[ananda]

biblical faith is NEVER blind belief.
God never demands blind faith.
He provides us with the truth, and we choose.

so..... you think that if you refuse to take the time to go to college, that it's not likely you can study college level materials?

I was a high school drop out. I hated school, and thought it was a waste of time. I grew up in the era of the Paul Simon song- Kodachrome.

the opening stanza is---

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall"​

https://genius.com/Paul-simon-kodachrome-lyrics

This was a standard in my day.

In 1997 I was diagnosed with stage 3 metastatic melanoma cancer, and following initial treatments, I found that I had the opportunity to attend college, because I could not longer ply my craft of sheet metal construction due to the danger of amputation of my left leg.

My wife had asked me not long after we married, if I'd ever won the lottery, would I consider returning to college, and getting a degree. Over the years, I thought that'd be interesting, so by the time I was on the mend from my cancer treatments, I said yes.
I got my papers, and funding in order, and began attending college. For all the loathing I felt towards high school, 20+ years earlier, I now found myself enjoying college. I eventually got an AS in Math, and when I went to the university, I studied physics. It started as a dare, but quickly became something I excelled at.
Even the dept chair told me one day that I am one of the "can do" crowd of physics students.

If I follow your logic, I should never have attended college. I should never have studied physics.
Not because it wasn't possible, but because.... well... I lacked the "self-evident" nature of having enjoyed high school, where most physics students get their start.
Indeed, I was in my early 40's when physics even came on my radar as a valid topic of interest/study.

So.... I find myself wondering..... is that going to be your justification for your life?

"My lack of experience in life is self-evident"
My failures were due to what was self-evident instead of what could have been.

following Jesus is more like an apprenticeship.
It's something that is not a short-lived event, and when you don't like what's happening anymore, you quit.

Success is not found in the short-term. It's found at the end of the long haul.

I have not met one Christian who has admitted to me that they have directly observed any of the events claimed in the Bible; they only had faith that those things happened - that is how I define "blind belief". Are you claiming that there a college course I can take that would allow me to observe those events?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It's not an argument--- as in academic terms of an argument.
It's not a philosophical construct-- where ideas are academically debated, constructed, and deconstructed.

Well, that's why you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing. This is exactly the place for academic arguments. That's what this forum is for. Have you not read the Statement of Purpose?

You can indeed try to complicate it, make it more difficult, or devolve it into that which it is not, but that means you're having a discussion about something that is entirely different, and not the same as what is presented by Jesus.

Steve, you strike me as someone who is deeply conflicted. I can tell that you have grave doubts about your faith. That's okay, I understand, and I am here to help.
You may say that you are here to convince the unbelievers, you may even believe it at some level of your mind, but I can tell that you are beginning to see the light of truth. Please feel free to be honest about your doubts as to God's existence. I promise you I will not laugh, and together we can explore the contradictions you have begun to find, and help you find your way to intellectual freedom.

 

[cloudyday2]

Oh, I don't know. I think it's perfectly suited.
the gospels, and letters are chock-full of passages/warnings of people leaving, false teachers/ideas popping up, but have you ever noticed those are ignored in favor of the idea--- well, I never met God, so it must not be real/true. Well, I tried...... but nothing every happened, so it can't be real.......

It seems to me that this issue is rife with false ideas, but people are not willing to consider that they're simply wrong.






that is what the passage says.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. Whosoever opens the door, I will come in, and we will dine together.

Ironically--- that passage is talking about a church on the west side of Turkey.
The scary thing is--- this is a church we're talking about. How does Jesus get outside the church, and telling them he's knocking on their door, asking to be let in?
This alone should give some credence to the idea that it's possible to claim you believe something, and yet missed it.
Especially when you're outside, complaining you were never part of it to begin with.




Here's the part you appear to miss....
I didn't knock on God's door.... God was knocking on my door! This is what that passage says!
Jesus is standing at the door knocking.

We do read in Isaiah 55--- seek the Lord while he may be found. Call on him while he's near.
In 2 Corinthians 6, we read--- behold! Now is the time, Today is the day of salvation.....

there are other passages which seem to make it pretty clear--- if you don't respond when God is knocking, he will leave you to your devices.




Actually, it says---
Ask and it shall be given to you.
Seek and you shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened.

It doesn't say it'll happen right away, or soon, or some time off in the distant future.
It simply says--- ask- you WILL receive, seek- you WILL find, knock- the door WILL be opened.





Well, using your logic, it doesn't mean what is says at all.

Here's a novel though for you.....

You, those who experience your experience.... you didn't get what you thought it was supposed to be, so you quit.

Jesus said--- in your patience you possess your souls.

Paul tells us--- Colossians 1:23

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

The writer of Hebrews tells us---Hebrews 3:6

but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end​

The good news is--- there's full restoration.
God says he welcomes all returnees.

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Knowing the True—Rejecting the False​

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.​

And

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.​

We tell you these things because we want you to experience God, and dwell with him forever-- in a paradise designed explicitly with you in mind.

‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:​

or.... you can have what wasn't prepared for you, or with you in mind at all.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

A kingdom prepared for you, from the foundation of the world...... Preparation, ongoing, since the foundation was laid..... millennia.....
Let's say the cosmos really is billions of years old.... just how much work do you think went into preparing a place for you which has been ongoing since before the beginning?

Or... a place which was prepared for a race of beings who wanted nothing to do with God, so he gave them the barebones, which was designed only as a prison, to prevent them from destroying what he's made for us. A place with everlasting fire. I don't know about you.... but that doesn't sound very interesting to me.


This really is the only reason we have this discussion.

O.k. I read the remainder of your post this morning. I guess it doesn't resonate with me, but thanks for making an effort.

It seems to me that Christianity needs to be reexamined. There are people like you (and even me to some degree) who have personal experiences suggesting the existence of God and some truth in Christianity. The problem is the Christian beliefs as commonly understood are not viable. That should be a hint that either Christianity is not true or the beliefs have been misunderstood and twisted.

 

[Rachel20]

I have not met one Christian who has admitted to me that they have directly observed any of the events claimed in the Bible; they only had faith that those things happened - that is how I define "blind belief". Are you claiming that there a college course I can take that would allow me to observe those events?

How do we know what we know? If it isn't "blind faith" as you've defined it, then we personally know next to nothing about anything. History, science, astronomy, ... Anything we've been taught that wasn't personally verified due to lack of time, training, ability, or funding. The things I can (and do) experience first-person include the spiritual and the things of God. Unfortunately, these greatest of evidences to me will be of little value to others.

 

[ananda]

How do we know what we know? If it isn't "blind faith" as you've defined it, then we personally know next to nothing about anything. History, science, astronomy, ... Anything we've been taught that wasn't personally verified due to lack of time, training, ability, or funding.

For a Buddhist like myself, we understand that there are degrees of knowledge. The strongest & most certain knowledge is obtained through direct experience, followed by knowledge obtained from reasoning, then finally knowledge from hearsay - the least certain. History is mostly hearsay with some reasoning; science & astronomy is often a mix of all three.

The things I can (and do) experience first-person include the spiritual and the things of God. Unfortunately, these greatest of evidences to me will be of little value to others.

Agreed.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

How do we know what we know? If it isn't "blind faith" as you've defined it, then we personally know next to nothing about anything. History, science, astronomy, ... Anything we've been taught that wasn't personally verified due to lack of time, training, ability, or funding. The things I can (and do) experience first-person include the spiritual and the things of God. Unfortunately, these greatest of evidences to me will be of little value to others.

You're right. There are many different branches of science and science-related subjects - astronomy, evolution and engineering, for example - that I really don't understand fully; and so when a scientist or expert tells me some things, I just have to take them on faith, trusting that they know what they're talking about, just as Christians have to take on faith everything their religion says is really true.

But there is a difference. I could go to university and take a course in being a scientist of any particular discipline, and then I would no longer have to take what they say on faith. What university can a Christian go to in order to acquire the proof that God actually exists?

Don't insult science by saying that both it and religion are based on faith. They are nothing of the sort. Your "first person" experiences are of very little value at all - even to you, I'm afraid - because there are many other people in the world who also say they have first-person experiences of divinity, and whose ideas about it contradict yours directly. You can't both be right. But you can both be wrong.

 

[Rachel20]

I could go to university and take a course in being a scientist of any particular discipline, and then I would no longer have to take what they say on faith.

Do you really think you could personally conduct all the tests that brought the discipline to where it is today? Foundations that took decades or centuries to build upon by multiple individuals from multiple disciplines dedicating whole lifetimes? Who would have the time? The study of astronomy alone would require we build our own Hubble to personally verify its reliability. Now we need an engineering degree as well. We're talking about what we can personally know to be true.

What university can a Christian go to in order to acquire the proof that God actually exists?

That would be none. And what university can an atheist go to in order to acquire proof he doesn't exist? It leaves us in a pretty amusing predicament that aligns quite well with 1 Corinthians 1:21-22

Your "first person" experiences are of very little value at all - even to you

Even to me? I think that claim requires you solve the hard problem of consciousness first. I'll nominate you for a Nobel if you have.

there are many other people in the world who also say they have first-person experiences of divinity, and whose ideas about it contradict yours directly.

To be clearer, my "qualia" is of little value to others since they can't share mine inorder to validate my claims about them. Theirs are likewise of little value to me.

 

[Rachel20]

You can't both be right but you can both be wrong

I've seen you use this before in other posts. It seems you selectively omit my favorite part of this truth table, that I can be right and the other wrong

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The reason is quite simple---- he wants you to have a choice in the matter. What the world views as foolish, absurd, inept, insignificant, worthless, useless, and void of any real value.... God has chosen to put to silence, shame, and embarrassment the people of the world who are wise, smart, erudite, strong, powerful, and think of themselves as superior.

So, yes.... I'm sure there are probably wiser, more erudite, stronger, and more profound ways to force you to bow to God, and Jesus. But that's not what he's asking here.
He's asking you to come, of your own volition, to Jesus, and receive the gift of eternal life, forgiveness of sin, and become a new human being, from the inside out. He's inviting you to become an adopted child of God, through placing your trust in Jesus.

God can show me he exists and still give me a choice. The fact that he will not show me he exists is telling me he does not want me to follow him with an informed choice.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do you really think you could personally conduct all the tests that brought the discipline to where it is today? Foundations that took decades or centuries to build upon by multiple individuals from multiple disciplines dedicating whole lifetimes? Who would have the time? The study of astronomy alone would require we build our own Hubble to personally verify its reliability. Now we need an engineering degree as well. We're talking about what we can personally know to be true.

While it may require lifetimes of work to acquire knowledge and prove it, once the knowledge has been acquired it becomes much easier to pass on and prove.
That's how education works.

That would be none.

Well, exactly. There is no university that you can go to to get a degree in proving that God exists.

And what university can an atheist go to in order to acquire proof he doesn't exist? It leaves us in a pretty amusing predicament that aligns quite well with 1 Corinthians 1:21-22

It's incredibly simple to prove that an atheist doesn't exist. All you have to do is prove that God exists, and the atheist will no longer be an atheist.

Even to me? I think that claim requires you solve the hard problem of consciousness first. I'll nominate you for a Nobel if you have.

Yes, even to you. What, are you so certain that you're always right? You're never mistaken? It's impossible for you to be mistaken. The fact that other people use exactly the same means as you to give diametrically opposite conclusions should give you pause to think. You don't need to, of course.

To be clearer, my "qualia" is of little value to others since they can't share mine inorder to validate my claims about them. Theirs are likewise of little value to me.

See above. What happens when a person who insists that the evidence points one way meets another person who insist the same evidence points another way?
Apparently, if that person is Rachel, she ignores it. She knows she's right.

I've seen you use this before in other posts. It seems you selectively omit my favorite part of this truth table, that I can be right and the other wrong

I bet that's your favourite! And you know the other person says exactly the same thing, right?
But that's okay. They're just wrong, aren't they?