for the agnostic.....

[Rachel20]

once the knowledge has been acquired it becomes much easier to pass on and prove. That's how education works.

Passed on knowledge is wonderful, but it isn't first-person, which is what we're talking about. And how are you going to prove the knowledge? Build your own Hadron collider to see if your God particle matches theirs? Am I supposed to take your response seriously?

Yes, even to you. What, are you so certain that you're always right? You're never mistaken? It's impossible for you to be mistaken. ... You don't need to, of course.
:
Apparently, if that person is Rachel, she ignores it. She knows she's right.

Why assume these things about me?

I bet that's your favourite! And you know the other person says exactly the same thing, right?
But that's okay. They're just wrong, aren't they?

Yes it's my favorite! It's the other persons favorite for the same reason! Sorry you missed the humor. Your pre-assumptions about me probably had something to do with it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Passed on knowledge is wonderful, but it isn't first-person, which is what we're talking about.

Passed-on knowledge can be better than first person, and often is. Particularly when one wants to know the truth about a proposition.
Again: have you never been wrong before? Is such a thing impossible? Because it seems to me that you're saying you know God exists and can't be mistaken about it. Which is of course what people of other religions say too - and they say you're wrong.

Why assume these things about me?

You tell me who you are, and I believe you.

Yes it's my favorite! It's the other persons favorite for the same reason! Sorry you missed the humor. Your pre-assumptions about me probably had something to do with it.

I don't have any pre-assumptions about you. You're the one who's been following me, I only noticed you just now. All I'm doing is responding to what you said.
And I think it's you who's missing the joke.

 

[ISteveB]

I have not met one Christian who has admitted to me that they have directly observed any of the events claimed in the Bible;

Observe events which took place in history?
Nope.
I have however actually been to Israel.
I saw the locations described in the bible. I saw buildings and structures that were described in the bible.

I find myself wondering if you grasp the nature of history and how to check out if what took place a long time ago can take place today.

they only had faith that those things happened - that is how I define "blind belief".

Ah.

Ok. Let's see if you are a blind faith kind of person.
Do you believe in the big bang?
Do you believe in evolution?
Do you really think that what "science" claims took place millions and billions of years ago actually happened?

Because if you do, you have blind faith.

According to your own definition.

Are you claiming that there a college course I can take that would allow me to observe those events?

Nope.
According to the bible, and according to historical studies, and the scientific method, we can:

Observe the documentation of what happened in history, and then using the methods developed by archaeologists, we can corroborate the events of history.

Then, using the biblical narrative, we can read, learn and engage in applying what the bible says for ourselves, and see if what we learn matches the biblical description of what following Jesus entails.

This was how early beliefs regarding the scientific method were developed.

We who follow Jesus have been engaged in such methods for millennia.

It's been working quite well too.

 

[Rachel20]

You're the one who's been following me

What? Are you mistaking me for someone else?

FYI the whole point of discussing first-person knowledge is to show the vast majority of what we think we "know", myself included, is blind belief using the definition of the other poster. This shouldn't paint me as a person who"thinks she is right about everything". To the contrary I'm questioning how any of us can know much about anything using the other posters definition.

 

[ISteveB]

Well, that's why you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing. This is exactly the place for academic arguments. That's what this forum is for. Have you not read the Statement of Purpose?

Of course I read the statement of purpose.
Did you not read what I stated?
It's not possible to argue a relationship between two people.
You can indeed try, but it won't change anything about the relationship.

Biblical christianity is not a philosophy.

It's a relationship between God and the human being, on an individual basis.

Arguing philosophy is easy. Your opinions based on your experience, arguing with someone else who has their own opinions based on their own experiences.
It's all about you needing to be right and you needing your opponent to be wrong.

A relationship however is about the primary personalities engaged with each other and the dynamics of their interactions with one another.

It's not about winning or losing. It's about working through the process of learning how to interact and communicate with each other.

Steve, you strike me as someone who is deeply conflicted.

I'm sure I do. According to you....

You strike me as an individual who is afraid to take the time to learn to understand and engage with God for yourself.

I can tell that you have grave doubts about your faith.

Oh please. This I have got to read about.
By all means. Develop your opinions.
You'll have to excuse me for finding this one more than slightly amusing.

You see, where I come from, when people make these kinds of statements, whom I believe says that they are in fact talking about themselves.

That's okay, I understand, and I am here to help.

Go for it.
I await your extensive knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

You may say that you are here to convince the unbelievers, you may even believe it at some level of your mind, but I can tell that you are beginning to see the light of truth. Please feel free to be honest about your doubts as to God's existence. I promise you I will not laugh, and together we can explore the contradictions you have begun to find, and help you find your way to intellectual freedom.

Hmmm....

Gee...

Gosh..... so.... you really think that you know what you're talking about.

Ok.

Actually.... I'm simply here to have conversations.

For other people who already have placed their trust in Jesus, I encourage them to learn to increase their trust in Jesus.

For the people who have not yet come to place their trust in Jesus, I explain how they can work through placing their trust in Jesus.
Some people prefer to call it sermonizing, because it makes them feel better about dismissing any real conversation with strangers about so personal a matter.

People who don't want to know God or place their trust in Jesus, I get to watch them embarrass themselves, and work through trying not to laugh my derriere off. I'll admit that at times, it can get really difficult to keep a strong demeanor when it happens. But I do however learn that my job is to simply focus on the conversation and praying for them.

 

[ISteveB]

O.k. I read the remainder of your post this morning. I guess it doesn't resonate with me, but thanks for making an effort.

I wasn't looking for it to resonate with you....whatever that's supposed to mean.... \_(°¿°)_/

I happen to think that people who are willing to take the time to seriously engage in discussion should be given a clear picture of what the bible says and is about.

You are after all created by God, in his own likeness and image. He thinks you're to die for, and demonstrated that by Jesus himself taking the worst humans could throw at him, and he still loved them enough to die for us.
You included.

It seems to me that Christianity needs to be reexamined. There are people like you (and even me to some degree) who have personal experiences suggesting the existence of God and some truth in Christianity.

Then please do.
43 years of my life has been an ongoing demonstration of God showing himself to me in the simple, complex, painful, joyous, sorrowful, anguished, and hopeless times I've lived through and looking back through it all, I see him standing in the middle, walking through it with me.

There have been miracles. There have been chastenings, there have been times when he was silently working through it with me.
But he was always there.

And from what I've heard, I've had a pretty average/standard/normal experience with Jesus.

The problem is the Christian beliefs as commonly understood are not viable.

I would agree.
I left that form of christianity in 1971.
My uncle is still ensconced in it, and clearly believes some incredibly strange things.

My dad left not long after I did, but for entirely different reasons.

My christianity is completely different from anything my ancestral family members have ever known.
For them, it's more social than spiritual.

The difference between them, I think, is that Jesus is actually alive, and interested in having a relationship with us.

I read, and learn to work through engaging the bible in my life.
I don't recall ever once seeing my parents crack open the bible and actually read it.

That should be a hint that either Christianity is not true or the beliefs have been misunderstood and twisted.

It's true,
and it's been misunderstood by many, and therefore twisted to make it easier to deal with by those who just want a social community.
Good catch.

Please.
Take the time to learn to read, learn, understand, and apply the bible to your life.

I started by asking God a simple question.

Are you for real?
Is this Jesus stuff I'm hearing about for real?
Or just another pile of religious bs.

I had no experience whatsoever, and I was not inherently interested in being religious. At all.
God shows himself to those who take him seriously.

He said,

In the day you seek him with a whole heart, in that day he will be found by you.

 

[ISteveB]

God can show me he exists and still give me a choice. The fact that he will not show me he exists is telling me he does not want me to follow him with an informed choice.

Curious....

From what I've read in the bible, he will show himself to those who seek him with a whole heart.
And those who do so, he makes it unmistakable.

Those who don't actually want to know, they'll use whatever excuses they want to avoid culpability for what they learned.

Paul describes this in Romans 1:19-24.

Rom 1:18-24 WEB 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves;
​

It's actually quite sad.

By refusing to acknowledge God, our minds get closed, and we begin thinking futile and vain ideas. Concocting the most foolish and inane ideas.
And while doing so, we see ourselves as intellectually superior, but in reality, our hearts become increasingly darkened, and eventually, we claim God is a concoction of men who need to explain the world around them.

After a while, God says ok. You can have what you want. A life without God. And it just gets darker and darker.

It's written in the bible,

To the pure God shows himself pure. But to the morally bankrupt, he appears perverse.

So.... what do you really want?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Curious....

From what I've read in the bible, he will show himself to those who seek him with a whole heart.
And those who do so, he makes it unmistakable.

Those who don't actually want to know, they'll use whatever excuses they want to avoid culpability for what they learned.

Paul describes this in Romans 1:19-24.

Rom 1:18-24 WEB 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves;
​

It's actually quite sad.

By refusing to acknowledge God, our minds get closed, and we begin thinking futile and vain ideas. Concocting the most foolish and inane ideas.
And while doing so, we see ourselves as intellectually superior, but in reality, our hearts become increasingly darkened, and eventually, we claim God is a concoction of men who need to explain the world around them.

After a while, God says ok. You can have what you want. A life without God. And it just gets darker and darker.

It's written in the bible,

To the pure God shows himself pure. But to the morally bankrupt, he appears perverse.

So.... what do you really want?

I was a sincere believer for 18 years. When I started to have doubts I had many tearful nights begging god to reveal himself so my doubts would go away. He never did. So you can believe I was not sincere enough and that I never really wanted to believe so you can sleep at night. but I know you are wrong.

 

[ISteveB]

I was a sincere believer for 18 years. When I started to have doubts I had many tearful nights begging god to reveal himself so my doubts would go away.

18 years.....
That's a long time.
I would have been 36 at 18 years into my walk with Christ. So 1996.
At 36, my wife had gotten quite sick.
I was just settling down in my career, we were talking about adopting children, and building our own home.
I'd begun investigating doing a master's program for my profession, but because it was located in Germany, I contacted the German Embassy in San Francisco and asked for the phone directory for the purpose of contacting them group I would have been serving.
I found a German speaking woman who was willing to translate my request.
We'd found a piece of property, a builder, and had taken the adoption classes. We were all dialed up and ready to go.

She began having serious problems and saw a doctor who gave her the diagnosis. She went out on disability and everything got put on hold.
I became the sole breadwinner and our lives completely changed.

As we struggled through this, God was not a problem for me.
I think the problem was how to deal with life's problems.

10 months later I was diagnosed with stage 3 metastatic melanoma cancer.
So life went from hard to downright impossible.

All plans for the future went from on hold too-- oh cr88! Now what!!!!

Thinking back about it all..... God's reality wasn't a problem for me.

God's reality was resolved for me on June 27, 1977, around 8:30 to 8:45 pm.
13 months later I was shot in the throat and I was miraculously healed--- according to the ear-nose and throat doctor who did the surgery to remove the bullet.
I'd had enough experience by 1996 that God's reality was a non-issue.

What was the issue was how to learn to understand what was happening to my wife and I. With my cancer, her parents came to live with us. That changed things even more so!

He never did.

I think he did. Just not in the way you wanted.
The fact that you went 18 years without actually knowing him as real.... that's what I find bizarre.
This belief you talk about.... did you grow up in a religious home and at 18 you asked him to make himself knowable?
I think the most important question here is whose name did you come to God in?

Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to Him. John 6:37-40

Joh 6:37-40 WEB 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

He further stated that Jesus is the only way to get to God. John 14:6
In Hebrews 7:25, we read that God will save to the uttermost all who come to him through Jesus Christ.

This is a critical issue.
We don't get to address God apart from Jesus.

We read in Timothy,

There is one God, and one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus.

So, if you didn't come through Jesus, it's no surprise that you never met him.

And while I am sorry if in fact that was your experience, come to Jesus now, and you will be welcomed by God with arms wide open.

So you can believe I was not sincere enough and that I never really wanted to believe so you can sleep at night. but I know you are wrong.

There's only one way to come to God.

Through Jesus Christ.
Joh 6:37 BBE Whatever the Father gives to me will come to me; and I will not send away anyone who comes to me.

 

[Moral Orel]

For years we've heard that Huxley said---

It's not likely God can be known.

Yet, in Jeremiah 24:7, we read---- I will give them a heart to know me.

So..... I have to wonder.....

Why would you believe a guy who's been dead now for a good 140 years, when God clearly stated that he will give you what you need to know him?

And the guy that wrote that Bible verse has been dead for a few thousand years. What does the amount of time folks have been dead have to do with believability?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

What? Are you mistaking me for someone else?

No. you said:

I've seen you use this before in other posts.

But I can't recall having met you before. Of course, maybe I did, and I forgot about it?

FYI the whole point of discussing first-person knowledge is to show the vast majority of what we think we "know", myself included, is blind belief using the definition of the other poster. This shouldn't paint me as a person who"thinks she is right about everything". To the contrary I'm questioning how any of us can know much about anything using the other posters definition.

Maybe you should work on expressing yourself more clearly.

 

[ananda]

Observe events which took place in history?
Nope.
I have however actually been to Israel.
I saw the locations described in the bible. I saw buildings and structures that were described in the bible.

I find myself wondering if you grasp the nature of history and how to check out if what took place a long time ago can take place today.

I understand the nature of history. I've also seen things around me that have been described in various fiction books; that doesn't make those fiction books true.

Ah.

Ok. Let's see if you are a blind faith kind of person.
Do you believe in the big bang?
Do you believe in evolution?
Do you really think that what "science" claims took place millions and billions of years ago actually happened?

Because if you do, you have blind faith.

According to your own definition.

Nope, I do not believe that those things happened, because I have not directly observed them. At the very most, I am agnostic towards those ideas.

Nope.
According to the bible, and according to historical studies, and the scientific method, we can:

Observe the documentation of what happened in history, and then using the methods developed by archaeologists, we can corroborate the events of history.

Then, using the biblical narrative, we can read, learn and engage in applying what the bible says for ourselves, and see if what we learn matches the biblical description of what following Jesus entails.

This was how early beliefs regarding the scientific method were developed.

We who follow Jesus have been engaged in such methods for millennia.

It's been working quite well too.

That's not my standard, however, when it comes to the answering the question about the ultimate good.

For this quetion, I require proof, not mere evidence - e.g. evidence provided by historical studies, scientific methods, archaeologists, etc. Evidence can be interpreted many different ways, but not proof.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

18 years.....
That's a long time.
I would have been 36 at 18 years into my walk with Christ. So 1996.
At 36, my wife had gotten quite sick.
I was just settling down in my career, we were talking about adopting children, and building our own home.
I'd begun investigating doing a master's program for my profession, but because it was located in Germany, I contacted the German Embassy in San Francisco and asked for the phone directory for the purpose of contacting them group I would have been serving.
I found a German speaking woman who was willing to translate my request.
We'd found a piece of property, a builder, and had taken the adoption classes. We were all dialed up and ready to go.

She began having serious problems and saw a doctor who gave her the diagnosis. She went out on disability and everything got put on hold.
I became the sole breadwinner and our lives completely changed.

As we struggled through this, God was not a problem for me.
I think the problem was how to deal with life's problems.

10 months later I was diagnosed with stage 3 metastatic melanoma cancer.
So life went from hard to downright impossible.

All plans for the future went from on hold too-- oh cr88! Now what!!!!

Thinking back about it all..... God's reality wasn't a problem for me.

God's reality was resolved for me on June 27, 1977, around 8:30 to 8:45 pm.
13 months later I was shot in the throat and I was miraculously healed--- according to the ear-nose and throat doctor who did the surgery to remove the bullet.
I'd had enough experience by 1996 that God's reality was a non-issue.

What was the issue was how to learn to understand what was happening to my wife and I. With my cancer, her parents came to live with us. That changed things even more so!

Sorry to hear of these experiences you had, they sound tough. But how does this story relate to my question?

I think he did. Just not in the way you wanted.

This cannot possibly be so. I asked God to show me He exists so if He did in some way that I am unaware of then He didn't show me He exists. Can God not make it clear to me that He exists?

The fact that you went 18 years without actually knowing him as real.... that's what I find bizarre.

I believed He was real because of experiences I had with God. In the end it came down to how could I actually know they were from a God? At the time I believed they were just like you but I later realized that did not have sufficient reasons for that belief. So I asked God to show himself to be clear to me. He never did. How can you know that it was a God that healed you?

This belief you talk about.... did you grow up in a religious home and at 18 you asked him to make himself knowable?

No, I grew up in a house that believed in a god in general but we never went to church or were taught anything about a god. My parents would not have called themselves atheists or agnostics. They believed in a god but not any personal god or a god that needed to be worshiped etc. I became a Christian when I was 30.

I think the most important question here is whose name did you come to God in?

Jesus said that he will not turn away anyone who comes to Him. John 6:37-40

Joh 6:37-40 WEB 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”​

He further stated that Jesus is the only way to get to God. John 14:6
In Hebrews 7:25, we read that God will save to the uttermost all who come to him through Jesus Christ.

This is a critical issue.
We don't get to address God apart from Jesus.

We read in Timothy,

There is one God, and one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus.

So, if you didn't come through Jesus, it's no surprise that you never met him.

I believed in Jesus as God, He died to forgive my sins etc. I was a christian. You can call me a liar if you want but I know the truth.

And while I am sorry if in fact that was your experience, come to Jesus now, and you will be welcomed by God with arms wide open.

There's only one way to come to God.

Through Jesus Christ.
Joh 6:37 BBE Whatever the Father gives to me will come to me; and I will not send away anyone who comes to me.

All I need if for Jesus to show me He exists and I will have no choice but to believe He exists. Why won't He do that? He had the perfect chance when I was losing my faith and was begging Him to reveal himself to me. He can even do that today.

You can try to figure out what I did wrong all day but that will not answer the question of why when sincerely asked would He not reveal himself to me in a way that I would be convinced?

 

[ISteveB]

And the guy that wrote that Bible verse has been dead for a few thousand years. What does the amount of time folks have been dead have to do with believability?

testability.

 

[ISteveB]

Sorry to hear of these experiences you had, they sound tough. But how does this story relate to my question?

I simply told my story, as it relates to where I was at 18 years in. I'm 43 years in, and the issues I'm facing do not include whether or not God is real.
That said, in 2003, ..... that would've been at 25 years in, I was living with a far more profound sense of despair than words can adequately describe. And while it took me another 9 years to understand, looking back, I can see that as Job, God was in the middle of that time with me.
At the time however, I was utterly terrified. I lived in one-heartbeat time units.
I.e., people often use the phrase--- I'm living one day at a time. Well, during that year, I was living one heartbeat at a time. My life felt like it was reduced to one heartbeat intervals.
A year later, at 26 years in, I had what so far has been my last cancer surgery, and based on what my surgeon said, I needed more treatments, so I began a tally of my cancer-related operations, and the increase in frequency, and decrease in time between recurrences. Based on those, I was pretty sure I would be dead by 2006. Yet, here we are, 14-1/2 years later, and I am still alive, and actually doing quite well.

So..... I think I have a rather unique perspective that can help.... IF you're motivated to work through what happened to you at 18 years in.
I'll work with you through it, put in my thoughts, but it's you who has to deal with the truth of what happened to you, during that period.
If not, then nothing I say is going to be easy.

This cannot possibly be so. I asked God to show me He exists so if He did in some way that I am unaware of then He didn't show me He exists. Can God not make it clear to me that He exists?

Well, I guess you have your answer then.
Your statement is not however true.
What did you base your belief on?

I believed He was real because of experiences I had with God. In the end it came down to how could I actually know they were from a God? At the time I believed they were just like you but I later realized that did not have sufficient reasons for that belief. So I asked God to show himself to be clear to me. He never did. How can you know that it was a God that healed you?

So.... you had experiences with God, yet at 18 years, you were asking him to show himself?
What were those experiences?
What was what you believed based on?
Did you have a basis? A book, or collection of writings? Did you believe what people with whom you were acquainted told you?

This is exceedingly critical.
You think you believed as I did, but based on what you've told me so far, your faith was based on something different.
So.... please.... answer the questions I'm asking.

No, I grew up in a house that believed in a god in general but we never went to church or were taught anything about a god. My parents would not have called themselves atheists or agnostics. They believed in a god but not any personal god or a god that needed to be worshiped etc. I became a Christian when I was 30.

Ok, so at 18 years, you would have been 48.
At 48, I was learning to live again, beyond my cancer, after having lost my mom to cancer, my mother in law to kidney failure, from type 2 diabetes, my grandfather to asbestosis cancer (I think they call that mesothelioma), having spent 8 years in college, studying math, physics, learning to code, started a new career.....

I believed in Jesus as God, He died to forgive my sins etc. I was a christian. You can call me a liar if you want but I know the truth.

I'm not calling you a liar.
But I have to wonder..... what did you base all this belief of yours on? Did you have a basis for it?
Was it the bible, or what a preacher told you? This is pretty critical, because real christianity has a basis upon which it's based. An historical basis.

All I need if for Jesus to show me He exists and I will have no choice but to believe He exists. Why won't He do that? He had the perfect chance when I was losing my faith and was begging Him to reveal himself to me. He can even do that today.

Weird.... Based on what the bible says, I would've expected that to have taken place before you "became a christian."
If you hadn't gotten that worked out right away, based on the bible, then you were not a christian. You indeed were a religionist, or what we call-- a Cino--- christian in name only--- but you had not been spiritually regenerated. Aka, the new birth.
Which begs the question---- what did you base your belief on?

You can try to figure out what I did wrong all day but that will not answer the question of why when sincerely asked would He not reveal himself to me in a way that I would be convinced?

I'm trying to understand.
I know who, and what my belief is based on. It's not an emotion. It's not a feeling. It's not an experience at some point in my past.
My belief is based on what God has stated, in the bible, and his Power to make it real to those who believe him.
Not just believe IN his existence, but to believe him, as one would rely on the promise given, regarding something important.
God justified Abraham, and accounted him righteous, because Abe believed God, when God told him he'd make him a father of many nations.

So, I'm trying to understand how you got lost, if you were already found/saved by God.
And from what I read in the bible, I'm asking you questions, so I can help you get back on the trail again.

At the 18 year mark, you had come to a point where you wanted something you did not have before....
A revelation of God's reality.
So.... I'll restate it----
Do you, or do you not want to work through this?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I simply told my story, as it relates to where I was at 18 years in. I'm 43 years in, and the issues I'm facing do not include whether or not God is real.
That said, in 2003, ..... that would've been at 25 years in, I was living with a far more profound sense of despair than words can adequately describe. And while it took me another 9 years to understand, looking back, I can see that as Job, God was in the middle of that time with me.
At the time however, I was utterly terrified. I lived in one-heartbeat time units.
I.e., people often use the phrase--- I'm living one day at a time. Well, during that year, I was living one heartbeat at a time. My life felt like it was reduced to one heartbeat intervals.
A year later, at 26 years in, I had what so far has been my last cancer surgery, and based on what my surgeon said, I needed more treatments, so I began a tally of my cancer-related operations, and the increase in frequency, and decrease in time between recurrences. Based on those, I was pretty sure I would be dead by 2006. Yet, here we are, 14-1/2 years later, and I am still alive, and actually doing quite well.

So..... I think I have a rather unique perspective that can help.... IF you're motivated to work through what happened to you at 18 years in.
I'll work with you through it, put in my thoughts, but it's you who has to deal with the truth of what happened to you, during that period.
If not, then nothing I say is going to be easy.

Nothing happened to me. What did happen is that I studied the bible earnestly to make sure I had a good basis for my beliefs so I could better tell people why it is true. What I found was that the Bible is not coherent, is immoral and is unsupported by sufficient evidence to believe it is from a God. My threshold for belief changed as I learned to skeptically think for myself. The question still stands, Why did God not convince me He exists? All I was and still am asking for is sufficient evidence. God knows what that would be.

Well, I guess you have your answer then.
Your statement is not however true.
What did you base your belief on?

So.... you had experiences with God, yet at 18 years, you were asking him to show himself?
What were those experiences?
What was what you believed based on?
Did you have a basis? A book, or collection of writings? Did you believe what people with whom you were acquainted told you?

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

This is exceedingly critical.
You think you believed as I did, but based on what you've told me so far, your faith was based on something different.
So.... please.... answer the questions I'm asking.

I did above. I am always reluctant to do so because all an individual christian has to do is find one thing they disagree with and they will write me off as if I never believed. Even when Christians cannot agree on what it takes to be saved.

Ok, so at 18 years, you would have been 48.
At 48, I was learning to live again, beyond my cancer, after having lost my mom to cancer, my mother in law to kidney failure, from type 2 diabetes, my grandfather to asbestosis cancer (I think they call that mesothelioma), having spent 8 years in college, studying math, physics, learning to code, started a new career.....

I'm not calling you a liar.
But I have to wonder..... what did you base all this belief of yours on? Did you have a basis for it?
Was it the bible, or what a preacher told you? This is pretty critical, because real christianity has a basis upon which it's based. An historical basis.

See above.

Weird.... Based on what the bible says, I would've expected that to have taken place before you "became a christian."
If you hadn't gotten that worked out right away, based on the bible, then you were not a christian. You indeed were a religionist, or what we call-- a Cino--- christian in name only--- but you had not been spiritually regenerated. Aka, the new birth.
Which begs the question---- what did you base your belief on?

I was a real christian. As I said above all you have to do is find one thing you disagree with in my story and presto I was never a christian.

I'm trying to understand.
I know who, and what my belief is based on. It's not an emotion. It's not a feeling. It's not an experience at some point in my past.
My belief is based on what God has stated, in the bible, and his Power to make it real to those who believe him.
Not just believe IN his existence, but to believe him, as one would rely on the promise given, regarding something important.
God justified Abraham, and accounted him righteous, because Abe believed God, when God told him he'd make him a father of many nations.

So, I'm trying to understand how you got lost, if you were already found/saved by God.
And from what I read in the bible, I'm asking you questions, so I can help you get back on the trail again.

At the 18 year mark, you had come to a point where you wanted something you did not have before....
A revelation of God's reality.
So.... I'll restate it----
Do you, or do you not want to work through this?

Nope. I did not want something I didn't think I had. I knew God existed just like you. But I soon realized everything I based my belief on was insufficient for belief.

Why do you believe?

 

[Moral Orel]

testability.

What does the amount of time that folks have been dead have to do with testability?

 

[ISteveB]

What does the amount of time that folks have been dead have to do with testability?

Simple.
I can demonstrate through doing what YHVH said that it's true, and reliable.

For what Huxley said, I have to base his claim on not knowing what YHVH said 2600 years ago.
I.e., ignorance.

So, I have to wonder--- why would I want to base my life on ignorance, when knowledge allows me to know whether what I'm doing can be verified?

 

[ISteveB]

Nothing happened to me. What did happen is that I studied the bible earnestly to make sure I had a good basis for my beliefs so I could better tell people why it is true. What I found was that the Bible is not coherent, is immoral and is unsupported by sufficient evidence to believe it is from a God. My threshold for belief changed as I learned to skeptically think for myself. The question still stands, Why did God not convince me He exists? All I was and still am asking for is sufficient evidence. God knows what that would be.

Then you have the answer you want.
As long as you believe what you think, instead of YHVH, you're not going to see the truth.
I've been studying the bible for 42 years, and I've found the bible to be quite coherent, very moral, and supported by copious evidence to believe it's from YHVH.

There's a statement in Psalms 18:26---

With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

Another translation states---
He who is holy will see you are Holy. But to the one whose way is not straight, you will be a hard judge.

Yet another states.....
To the pure you show yourself pure. But to the morally bankrupt, you appear to be perverse.

So, your own words state that God is not who he said he is, and his word is not what he said it is.

Psalm 19 states--

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward.​

I based my belief on the bible specifically the gospels. I believed they were eyewitness accounts and were reliable, I had a couple dreams that I attributed to God, I felt Gods presence often when singing and reading the bible, I saw a healing and heard stories and "proof" of my friends healing.

Sounds like God had previously provided you with what you asked..... did this take place before this point at the 18 year mark?

Why did what took place change? According to Malachi 3:6, and Hebrews 13:8--- neither God, nor Jesus change. They remain consistent. So, if they remain consistent, then how did God change?

I did above. I am always reluctant to do so because all an individual christian has to do is find one thing they disagree with and they will write me off as if I never believed. Even when Christians cannot agree on what it takes to be saved.

Well.... it reads to me that you wrote yourself off.

See above.

It reads to me that by your own words--- you wrote yourself off.

I was a real christian. As I said above all you have to do is find one thing you disagree with in my story and presto I was never a christian.

Do you know what this is based on? there's actually a number of passages which allude to this, but there's one passage in particular which explicitly states--- if they left, they did so because they were not actually one of us to begin with. 1 John 2:19.

So, I'm more than a little curious why you think you deserve special treatment when we're all in exactly the same boat.... If I walk away from Jesus, it just demonstrates that I was never following him in the first place. Do you think I like that idea? I guarantee that I don't like it at all....

Jesus then talks about a builder who was going to build, but got half way through, and found he didn't have the resources to finish. He then talked about how those who saw him mocked him because he started and failed to finish. Bringing to bear the idea---- we really need to count the cost before we get started.
I'm sure you saw that passage numerous times-- based on your statement of having studied the gospels.

Nope. I did not want something I didn't think I had. I knew God existed just like you. But I soon realized everything I based my belief on was insufficient for belief.

Yet you left.... It leads me to the question of--- did you understand what biblical faith actually was?
If you know God existed, yet you wanted some special revelation beyond what he already gave you, what did you think had changed about God?

Another translation of Psalms 18:26---
With the pure you will show yourself pure, and with the obstinate you will show yourself stubborn.

Israel saw God's reality throughout the Exodus. They were fed, given water, their clothing did not fail, their sandals survived for 40 years, they watched a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night, guide them from Egypt to the promise land. They saw God fight against their enemies..... 10 specific activities, which made God's reality irrefutable, and unquestionable. Yet, they did not believe him, and as such, excluded themselves from benefiting from God's Grace, and as a result, experienced God's Judgment. Numbers 14, and Hebrews 4:2.

Why do you believe?

God has demonstrated himself exactly as the bible describes him.
To the pure, he's demonstrated himself pure.

when I was stubborn, and opposed, he opposed me.
He's faithful to what he's said in the bible.

I've found in my 43+ years of learning to follow Jesus, the proverb which says---

3 Let not mercy and truth forsake you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,

And lean not on your own understanding;

6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,

And He shall direct your paths.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh,
And strength to your bones.​

is quite true.
Just as true as where Jesus said---

23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?​

We've been invited to come follow Jesus. The gift he gives is eternal life. Living in a world where evil is all around us, where beauty, joy, sorrow, sadness, pain, heartache, hope, despair, etc..... ad infinitum, surround us, he told us--- life will get far worse, and be a nightmare. He also gives us the gift of himself to be with us, throughout our lives..... Just not how we think.

It's taken me over 20 years of being married before I understood what Jesus said about living under the same roof as me.... John 14:23.

If you keep my teachings, you will show you love me, and you will be loved by my Father, and we will come and make our home with you. ​

Living as a married man, for 30+ years now, I've come to understand that God's presence in my life is both subtle, and profound. Simple, and like a deep river, is calming, and sure.

I believe because I know he's real, and I know he's knowable.

I think you were a believer. And I think God really did come make his home with you. I also think you got deceived as to what it means to follow Jesus, and trusted your own understanding, more than you did God's Wisdom. He's right where he was when you left.
All he's asking is for you to turn to him, from your sin, and place your trust in Jesus.

 

[Moral Orel]

Simple.
I can demonstrate through doing what YHVH said that it's true, and reliable.

What does that have to do with how long someone's been dead, though? Would this change if Huxley was still alive? Or if he died yesterday or a million years ago?

For what Huxley said, I have to base his claim on not knowing what YHVH said 2600 years ago.
I.e., ignorance.

I don't know what God said, if anything, a long time ago. I know what Jeremiah said, and you're claiming I can test that. Okay, fine, but what does any of that have to do with how long folks have been dead? If Jeremiah just made that statement yesterday, I'd still be able to test it, right?

So, I have to wonder--- why would I want to base my life on ignorance, when knowledge allows me to know whether what I'm doing can be verified?

You don't really have a choice but to base your life on ignorance. You can't act in accordance with something you don't know.