for the agnostic.....

[ISteveB]

Steve you are so cocky. I am completely with IA whose overly generic screen name doesn't actually pose me a practical problem (my priest didn't christen me after St Amittai).

ok.... and this is supposed to tell me......
what?

Steve your "reason" is not the kind God asks you for. He wants you to beg Him to send people in your life to potentise your gifts so you can potentise ours. It seems to me that in starting this thread you didn't really have a purpose.

Well, I've given you the means by which you can ask God to potentize your life yourself.
My purpose was quite simple.Just like the gospel is simple.

God-- YHVH-- gives us a heart to know him.
As we've killed our heart as a result of our sin, he's offering to make it possible for us to know Him. And as Jesus said eternal life consists of knowing God, and Jesus whom God sent, knowing God is the goal.

And for those who think this is impossible-- Jesus said-- that which is impossible for man, IS Possible for God. For all things are possible to those who believe Him.

As an agnostic I claim "non-denominationality" (the nearest I seem to get to "multi-denominationality") so as not to get excluded from contributing in areas I know about. There's never been anything wrong in being agnostic and IA has stated explicity he is one too.

The question here isn't whether being without knowledge/awareness of YHVH is reasonable.
Based entirely on the layout of this forum, and the requirements to begin posting in this forum, it's clear that people who post here don't know God is real, or that he is knowable.

So, the question here becomes---
Do you want to know God?
Do you want to become aware, and know him?
Because according to Jeremiah 24:7, God is providing the means/wherewithal to make it possible for you to know him.

I will give them a heart to know me, says YHVH!

 

[Amittai]

... The Bible is like a textbook ...

It mostly isn't like a textbook because it is mostly more oblique than a textbook. Real meanings were meant to be taught alongside the text (to who wanted) and neither is the proper substitute for the other as persons lacking in integrity maintain. My explanation is not intended by me, and does not as it stands entail, any claim on anyone other than plain noting as it is, and that it is of me. This is why I hold agnosticism, from 0.1 to 6.9, as supreme. As a "sort of believer" I am anti-apologetics according to any known manner of practising the genre. I only offer what until recently was offered to all mankind: your free investigation, your free inference by your free degrees, my goodwill.

 

[Amittai]

... that only atheists want to talk about the nasty stuff in the Bible like genocide and slavery and rape, and Christians only want to talk about the positive inspirational stuff like Proverbs and Psalms and a lot of the NT? Because people want the positive stuff to be true and they want the ugly stuff to not exist ...

In passing, Scripture is (as was pointed out by a commentator elsewhere) largely a record of how an attempt at theocracy imploded (by copying what it shouldn't have been and what it shouldn't have pretended not to be).

Your main point in this post is strong: no help to put emotion and inference in what ought to be their true places. This very thing you describe damaged me no end for over half my life, and countless people around me.

 

[ISteveB]

Steve your version of slapstick is inappropriate to these threads.

Uh...... slapstick is a visual form of comedy.
This is a written medium, so I'm not doing slapstick here.
In fact, since you don't appear to understand what slapstick is, here's a couple of examples for you.

This one provides a definition of slapstick.
Why Slapstick Is More Than a Low Form of Humor

Here's a video from Laurel and Hardy, as well as the 3 Stooges.
THIS is Classic slapstick--- without any profanity.

So, there's no slapstick in what I post. Sardonic wit, yes. Perhaps even some sarcasm. But no slapstick.

Why would you dare to insult Scriptures and the public?

In what way have I insulted scripture, or the public?

I heard about those "weddings" you hold in the States (and south Italy). Even "alleyways" get a mention . . . Oh and life being over. (Sick slapstick alert)

You'll have to tell me about the weddings in the states, and south Italy. I've never been to Italy, and the only weddings I've attended in the states are in Calif. and Nevada. Whatever celebrations occur here stop after the first day. In ancient biblical Israel, they lasted for 7 days, with rare stories of upwards of 30 years. But apparently, those were for the really wealthy.

So you've known millions of us better than we know ourselves - for all of a full 43 (Forty Three) lengthy and long years, and how our much thinking is not thinking, and how your no thinking is much thinking.

I don't recall saying I've known millions of you better than you know yourself.
I am however known by Him who knows everything there is to know about us.
So much so, he says--

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.​

and

1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

​

So.... I encourage you to take up your cause with Him. This way you can learn firsthand that he is knowable.

He tells us--- God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

 

[ISteveB]

The trouble is twofold Steve, you're not being asked, and you're not defending.

Then you have nothing to concern yourself with.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So.... I encourage you to take up your cause with Him. This way you can learn firsthand that he is knowable.

You keep saying this but when people tell you their experience in honestly seeking God with all their heart and get nothing back you dismiss it and just say they must have done something wrong. So you have setup a win-win situation for yourself. If someone hears God then you are right if they don't then you are right. Can't you see the problem with this?

 

[Amittai]

ok.... and this is supposed to tell me......
what?
This was solely the small point that you thought there was a problem with IA's slightly bland screen name.
Well, I've given you the means by which you can ask God to potentize your life yourself.
My purpose was quite simple.Just like the gospel is simple.

God-- YHVH-- gives us a heart to know him.
As we've killed our heart as a result of our sin, he's offering to make it possible for us to know Him. And as Jesus said eternal life consists of knowing God, and Jesus whom God sent, knowing God is the goal.

And for those who think this is impossible-- Jesus said-- that which is impossible for man, IS Possible for God. For all things are possible to those who believe Him.

This and more, looks relevant to some of us, and not to others.

The question here isn't whether being without knowledge/awareness of YHVH is reasonable.
Based entirely on the layout of this forum, and the requirements to begin posting in this forum, it's clear that people who post here don't know God is real, or that he is knowable.

- some of -

So, the question here becomes---
Do you want to know God?
Do you want to become aware, and know him?

Not necessarily, according to the "requirements to begin posting in this forum" as IA helpfully reminded us an hour ago.

Because according to Jeremiah 24:7, God is providing the means/wherewithal to make it possible for you to know him.

I will give them a heart to know me, says YHVH!

Thank you; one of my favourite verses; this comes over to me differently from how it comes over to some others (quasi-indexicality).

 

[Amittai]

Then you have nothing to concern yourself with.

Given that public threads are for reference of a wide readership, I like to be of help to them by complementing others' contributions.

 

[ISteveB]

Given that knowledge is partial, individuals with overlapping knowledge - which has always been the general case among humanity and anyone non-doctrinnaire in all the sciences - can both be right, which goes all the more to prove this is a non-issue (IA you are swallowing Kuhlmannist propaganda - more or less identical to Steve's - wholesale, instead of distancing yourself from it).

Actually, doctrinaire is spelled with one n.
doctrinaire - Google Search

And I'm not the one who is claiming that knowledge among humans is complete.
Indeed, if knowledge among humans was complete, there'd be no need for education.
Even Paul states that in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.​

There is one however who knows all things.

1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”
Even the night shall be light about me;
12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.​

and

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.​

So, I'd encourage you to stop considering that you know enough to think you alone have more knowledge than the eternal God, YHVH.

 

[Amittai]

... Perhaps even some sarcasm ...

Things that are going to befall us are sarcasm, as apologetics (a genre that was supposed to be addressed to Muslims incidentally).

You are in burned-over country. Do you have a potential gift to share with and receive from Christians?

In what way have I insulted scripture, or the public?

How do you understand quasi-indexicality?

You'll have to tell me about the weddings in the states, and south Italy. I've never been to Italy, and the only weddings I've attended in the states are in Calif. and Nevada. Whatever celebrations occur here stop after the first day. In ancient biblical Israel, they lasted for 7 days, with rare stories of upwards of 30 years. But apparently, those were for the really wealthy.

Oh did I get the sarcasm wrong?

I don't recall saying I've known millions of you better than you know yourself ...

You seemed to imply this is the fruit of 43 years.

 

[Par5]

Hi Par.
I actually have a basis for why I use the bible to emphasize, and support my points.

The bible is the basis for why we follow Jesus.

As Peter tells us in his letters.

God has given us everything we need for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us by his own glory and virtue. 2 Peter 1:3.

God tells us in Hosea 4:6 that his people perish because of the lack of knowledge.

So, I can argue with people about what they don't want to know, or I can simply present the truth, and let them decide whether they want to actually know God for themselves.

Especially since God actually provided the truth for us.

Isa 55:8-11 WEB 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways,” says Yahweh. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky, and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth, and makes it grow and bud, and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater; 11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth: it will not return to me void, but it will accomplish that which I please, and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

I.e., God has imparted his word to have his life-giving power.
His purpose is to give life to all who believe him.
Moreover, as part of his life-giving Word, there's an innate attribute, which results in our deaths if we refuse to believe him.

I.e., it achieves His purposes.

Jesus said

Joh 3:16-21 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”



of course. It's the standard excuse given by people who prefer their sin over the truth.

Joh 3:16-21 WEB 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only born Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”

It's a curious thing.
I find excuses speak more to a bad justification for condemning yourself to an eternity separated from God and living in abject misery forever.



Of course.
You apparently missed the part where it says that the preaching of the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.
It says elsewhere that there comes a point in an individual's life where they lose their faculty to reason clearly.

1 Corinthians 1:18-29, Romans 1:18-24, Hosea 9:7.



Yes, that's what it says in 1 Corinthians 2.
Jesus said that his words are Spirit and they are life.

So, what you feel is gibberish, silly, or superstitious nonsense....

God has explicitly said brings eternal life to those who believe him.


Then you will have exactly what you want.



Do I look forward to the return of Jesus?
Absolutely!
That is part of God's Grace, through which we are saved, by believing God.

Tit 2:11-14 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.

So, what you appear to misunderstand is that God gave his only son to save us from the consequences of our sin.

As he described in Romans 5.

Rom 5:6-12 WEB 6 For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man. Yet perhaps for a good person someone would even dare to die. 8 But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Then, in Ezekiel 18, God pleads with us,

Why will you die?
I take no pleasure in the death of those who die.

Some interesting things in your post Steve. You stated that those who say the quickest way for someone to become an atheist is to get them to read the bible are just using the standard excuse of those who prefer their sin over the truth.
Now I am assuming that you consider me to belong to that group of people, but I would like to ask you, what is sin, and whose truth are you talking about?
You give the impression of being critical of people you know nothing about simply because they don't believe as you believe.

 

[Amittai]

You keep saying this but when people tell you their experience in honestly seeking God with all their heart and get nothing back you dismiss it and just say they must have done something wrong. So you have setup a win-win situation for yourself. If someone hears God then you are right if they don't then you are right. Can't you see the problem with this?

CWC, this criticism is justified. As for me, I would say i) give time time (and I don't know what that's going to be like) and ii) I don't define the qualities of God as narrowly as it's possibly reasonable for you to deduce Steve is doing. There are genuine evangelisers and by chance I'm not one myself.

 

[ISteveB]

I thought you said that you started believing in Christianity after God answered your prayer to confirm that Christianity was true.

I didn't start believing in Christianity at all. I actually abandoned churchianity, often known as christianity, when I was 11-12, in 1971-2.
I placed my Trust in Jesus when God demonstrated himself real to me in June 1977, after I asked him if he was real, if this Jesus stuff I'd been hearing about, or just another pile of religious BS.

Big difference.
We who follow Jesus are not asking you to believe in a collection of religious ideas/ideals.
We're asking you to come to Jesus, and then let him demonstrate himself to you, so you can decide for yourselves.

I don't believe in an institution, or in a book.
I believe in a man, whom God gave to take my place in judgment due my sin, and then raised from the dead to demonstrate that he was fully satisfied with the offering of Jesus, once and for all.

Over the course of the past 43+ years now, I've found that the book, or actually, collection of writings known as the bible, is in fact God's Word to the human race, so we can actually know him. I've done this by learning what it says, aka reading, and then learning to apply what I've read, and obtaining the results stated would in fact occur to those who do.

The Bible is like a textbook. Is history true because the events happened or because a textbook says they happened? Ideally the textbook does not prove historical events are true - a person should be skeptical and dig deeper. In time a person might trust a textbook, but not at first.

The events that are described in the bible as history are true because they actually took place.

They've been recorded by eyewitnesses, and those who documented them.
I'm not sure who told you that the historicity of the events are proven by a book, or that they're even repeatable, in the scientific methodology manner. Any more than you can create the cosmos again.
History is history. It took place. History is a one time event, and can only be known because it was documented. Otherwise, it's lost to antiquity forever, unknown to any except those who were present to observe it occur.

Are the truths in the Pauline epistles true because Paul wrote them or did Paul write them BECAUSE they are true?

Paul wrote them because he demonstrated them in his own life, so they were true, by virtue of their having been verified by action.
And they are verifiable to all who will take the time to learn, and then do what he said.

The Bible records truths - it doesn't prove truths.

Yes. it does.
The proof is not in the documentation of them. The proof is in the doing, which presents the results.

Eg.,
Scientific journal articles written to document scientific research, are not themselves proof of the claims made. They are simply documenting what the researchers did, the question, the methodology used, and the results.

If you want proof that what they said in the article is true, you have to follow their description.
If you get the same results they did, then you know what they said is true.

It's the same with biblical Christianity.
To know if it's true, you have to do what the writers said.
Just reading it.... it's going to sound exactly like Paul told us it'd sound like....
Foolishness and offensive. 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

It's in the doing, in the taking of the time to read, learn, then apply what is described which demonstrates the veracity of the biblical narrative.
History is still history. It cannot be repeated. We can however do the parts which are described as doable, and it's at that point we can know the history is actually accurately described.

Muslims believe that people can be convert to Islam simply by hearing the Quran read in Arabic - even if they don't understand Arabic. I suppose there might be passages in the Bible that awaken the potential Christian within the skeptic simply by hearing them. I don't know. In that case I suppose the Bible quotes might serve a purpose.

Apparently the Muslims who don't understand Arabic didn't get that memo.
A Wind In The House Of Islam | How God is drawing Muslims around the world to faith in Jesus Christ

these the stories of Muslims who are turning to Jesus throughout the Islamic world, from Indonesia, to western Africa.

 

[Amittai]

Actually, doctrinaire is spelled with one n.
doctrinaire - Google Search

It's not like me to be ungenerous with my jots and my tittles.

So, I'd encourage you to stop considering that you know enough to think you alone have more knowledge than the eternal God, YHVH.

Erm, I'm VERY VERY sorry I gave such an outrageous impression, I really am, believe me.

 

[ISteveB]

Quoting the Bible to atheists is not a good debating tactic. We don't believe in it. So why should it matter to us what the Bible says?

So you're just not paying attention.
Your disbelief doesn't matter.
It's true, and it carries with it an inherent power that gives life to those who believe, and increases wrath to the already existing condemnation to those who disbelieve.

For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?​

Your belief is only a requirement if you actually want to know the truth.
Your unbelief will leave you in your present state. Condemned, and under increasing wrath.

it's fine to quote the Bible if you're in a debate with another Christian. It's fine to quote the Bible if you're debating with an atheist about the meaning of a passage in the Bible. But if you're quoting the Bible to an atheist to prove that God exists, you're wasting your time. Once again, you are called on here to present logical arguments. "What I am saying is true because the Bible says so" is not acceptable.

Again you've misunderstood.
The quote is not proof of God's existence. The existence of the bible is not proof of God's existence.
The bible, the quotes, they all point to a means/method by which you have to decide whether or not you will engage, so God himself will demonstrate himself to you.

It's been this way since the beginning.
God has always existed, and always will exist.
Our sin killed the only means by which we may know him.
God is offering to provide you with the means by which you may actually know him, which will result in your knowing him to be real.

If however, you don't actually want to know him, then acknowledging his reality is immaterial. You'll find out he's real after you die, and at which point it'll be too late to do anything about it, and you'll have chosen your fate.

you asked me by what authority I could tell you what to say. Simple. The Statement of Purpose of this forum. Other Christians seem to have no trouble following it.

IF all you want is an argument, I'll provide you with a list of books.
I don't provide what you call an argument because I've learned over the past 55 years that they mean nothing. At best they give you reason to stop and consider, but if you don't actually want to know God, then they become nothing more than interesting trivia.

As Paul told the Corinthians---- If I provide you with an argument for God's reality, then someone who has greater eloquence can provide a counter argument, and we can continue going back and forth with increasingly eloquent arguments, until the end of time, and it'll not achieve a single thing.
So, which would you like?
Do you just want to sit around and philosophize, or do you actually want to know the truth?

You say you simply want to speak the truth. Exactly. You're not here (in a debating forum, as you say you are aware) to debate. You're here to preach. Would you mind.not doing it, please?

Nobody is forcing you to be on a Christian website where the truth is made known.

We who follow Jesus aren't here so you can debate esoteric ideas.
The very existence of christianity is for the sole purpose of knowing God, as Father, and Jesus as brother.
It's not so you can feel like you have that one straw on the proverbial camel's back to win, and definitively prove that God is not real.

 

[ISteveB]

Here are a handful of books for those who need something to debate.

https://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-B...ler,+the+reason+for+God&qid=1601913909&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense...ler,+the+reason+for+God&qid=1601913992&sr=8-4

Shop - John Lennox

Books – Os Guinness

Books - Official Site | CSLewis.com

Let My People Think

The problem with "arguing" to "prove" God is that it never ends.
Far more educated men, and women who have sought to argue against the existence of God, have found themselves face to face with God, when they got real, and honest. Do you have that level of genuine honesty?

It's rather interesting that in Isaiah 1:18, and Isaiah 41:1, and Isaiah 41:21, God invites us to come and reason, argue, and present our case to Him.
Not to his people. But to him, directly.
I've found in my times of wanting to argue with God, he just listens.
Job, in the old testament was a guy who had a great life, and then in one day, his entire life was turned upside down. He lost family, friends, property, cattle, etc.... It was so bad that his own wife turned against him. Indeed, his body turned against him, in that he got boils, some kind of an infection that laid him waste. So, he sat down in a pile of ash, in silence for a week.
Of all his friends and family, 4 guys whom he'd known for a long, long time heard of his misfortune, and traveled a great distance. They showed up to offer consolation. When they saw him, they were stunned beyond words. They had nothing, so they sat there, with him, in silence.....
After a week, he opened his mouth, and bemoaned the day of his birth.
The book of Job is 42 chapter. there are 4 back and forth debates, and finally, at the end, Job got exactly what he wanted--- God to show up.
Nobody knows how long this total period of time lasted for Job. How long the arguments and debates went back and forth. But his 4 best friends even accused him of doing some crime that was deserving of punishment for him to get what happened to him.

God is not afraid of your doubts, questions, mockings, etc...
He'll let you rant for as long as you want.
But arguing with strangers, on an internet forum, so you can hide behind purported intellectual superiority... it's not going to get you what you really want.

He'd rather you come talk to him.

“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.​

“Keep silence before Me, O coastlands,
And let the people renew their strength!
Let them come near, then let them speak;
Let us come near together for judgment.​

“Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob​

So..... Come talk to God.
And don't tell me you don't believe God is real. If you didn't believe God was real, you wouldn't be on a Christian website seeking arguments with total strangers about matters you don't want to know.

 

[ISteveB]

misattributed quote. It's not like me to be ungenerous with my jots and my tittles.

Erm, I'm VERY VERY sorry I gave such an outrageous impression, I really am, believe me.

I see you're now changing what I've stated, and imposing your own sarcasm onto my posts.

I'm curious if you comprehend how disingenuous that is.

this statement--- it's yours, not mine.



take your junk out of my comments.

 

[ISteveB]

Some interesting things in your post Steve.

good. I'm glad you're reading.

You stated that those who say the quickest way for someone to become an atheist is to get them to read the bible are just using the standard excuse of those who prefer their sin over the truth.

I did not state that-... YOU did.
I stated that I have heard that.
I further stated that I think it's an excuse used by those who prefer their sin over the truth.
So, please--- get your facts straight.

Now I am assuming that you consider me to belong to that group of people, but I would like to ask you, what is sin, and whose truth are you talking about?

That's up to you.
Do you care about the truth, or your own ideas.
Preferring one's own sin includes their own ideas.

John tells us in his first letter, chapter 3---- sin is lawlessness.
I.e., sin is choosing to reject God's Law.
YHVH's Truth.
Jesus said-- I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, except through me. John 14:6.

You give the impression of being critical of people you know nothing about simply because they don't believe as you believe.

I'm not being critical of anyone.
I've simply stated what my observations have been for several decades, all the way back to my childhood. And I'm included in those observations.
Their belief is completely irrelevant, and unnecessary for Truth to be Truth, and the previously stated comments' veracity.

Jesus was quite clear about the matter.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


We are being invited by God, YHVH to come to Jesus, and have our condemnation wiped away, given a clean slate, to become completely new, inside out.

Or.... continue as you are, and remain under the existing condemnation.

God takes no pleasure in this condemnation the human race has been under. It's explicitly why he's given us his son. He's given his son so we may be made free from condemnation, and be adopted as sons and daughters.

 

[ISteveB]

Given that public threads are for reference of a wide readership, I like to be of help to them by complementing others' contributions.

Indeed, I simply found the statement made non sequitur.

 

[ISteveB]

Thank you; one of my favourite verses; this comes over to me differently from how it comes over to some others (quasi-indexicality).

I'm curious... is there a point to your placing your own ideas I did not state in my comments?

It strikes me as rather immature.