For me, it's either theistic evolution or nothing.

[rjs330]

I don’t know all the specifics I just know that the evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

No it's not. At least not as presented by the evolutionists where everything came from a common ancestor. There is not one single iota of evidence that shows that.

 

[rjs330]

Huh? You said that God wrote the Bible, not that he inspired those who did write. Two very different things. In Islam, the Koran was written by God, but that has never been a common Christian belief.

Perhaps you don't deal to often with those who make that claim and so misunderstand what they mean. I don't know if anyone who actually believes God wrote the Bible himself like he actually penned the words to paper using his own ink and will. It actually makes me wonder if you are trying to stir the pot here.

Did you actually think that's what was meant?

What is understood by 99.9999999% of people who say God wrote the Scriptures is that he did exactly what the scriptures say happened. And none of them say he wrote it in his own hand using his own paper, ink and pen.

I hope this helps so you don't get confused in the future when some says God wrote the Scriptures. And if someone says they didn't mean that he wrote it in his own hand then just accept they meant inspiration and move on. No need to nit pick.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is the Lord’s command. But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored" (1 Corinthians 14:36-38).

Yup. "I am writing you", that means that Paul is writing it.

And just so you know, Paul is a human. A human author. Unless you think God changed His name to Paul.

See, that conclusion isn't so hard to make.

You seem to be confused about the difference between God writing the Bible, like Mormons believe, in comparison to God inspiring people who then wrote the Bible, like Christians believe. Are you Mormon?

 

[sfs]

Perhaps you don't deal to often with those who make that claim and so misunderstand what they mean. I don't know if anyone who actually believes God wrote the Bible himself like he actually penned the words to paper using his own ink and will. It actually makes me wonder if you are trying to stir the pot here.

Did you actually think that's what was meant?

You've misunderstood my meaning. I think it's quite likely that he meant that every word in the Bible was dictated by God as the perfect expression of his intended meaning. That is what I take 'God wrote the Bible' to mean, not that God used pen and ink. That is one possible view on inspiration but it is hardly the only one.

 

[rjs330]

You've misunderstood my meaning. I think it's quite likely that he meant that every word in the Bible was dictated by God as the perfect expression of his intended meaning. That is what I take 'God wrote the Bible' to mean, not that God used pen and ink. That is one possible view on inspiration but it is hardly the only one.

In 378 he clarified the what was meant when he talked about inspiration. You continued to question the proposition. You think it's quite likely? Why do you think that? Why didn't you just ask him the question?

You may have just taken it wrong. And based upon post 378 and the fact that he identifies as presbyterian should give clues.

But I could be wrong. He might believe God dictated and the prophets and apostles acted as secretaries. We have a tendency as humans to jump immediately to conclusions without clarifying.

That's why I asked you the question, to clarify what you meant. And you did. That's good.

Come on everyone, instead of jumping to conclusions just ask the guy. He's out brother after all. I will start.

 

[rjs330]

If you have the mindset that the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the writers of the Bible, then there is nothing more I can say.

Perhaps you too are misunderstanding the question.

I think we all agree that God inspired the authors to write. And that through the process of inspiration God wrote the Bible because God inspired them to write what he wanted them to.

The question people are wondering is what is your understanding of that process.

1. Did God inspire them to write using their own language and individuality to do so.
OR
2. Did God inspire them to the point where he dictated word for word what he wanted them to say?

Example:
As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant. Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice, of all deceit, hypocrisy and envy, and of all the ways there are of speaking against people; and be like newborn babies, thirsty for the pure milk of the Word; so that by it, you may grow up into deliverance. For you have tasted that is good.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 1:14, 1 Peter 2:1, 1 Peter 2:2, 1 Peter 2:3 - Complete Jewish Bible

Was every word in that passage dictated by God for Peter to write or did God inspire Peter to write that and Peter used his own words and personality to write the passage?

I'm not challenging you at all. Just trying to clarify so people can know your meaning when you say God wrote the Bible using inspiration to do so.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yup. "I am writing you", that means that Paul is writing it.

And just so you know, Paul is a human. A human author. Unless you think God changed His name to Paul.

See, that conclusion isn't so hard to make.

You seem to be confused about the difference between God writing the Bible, like Mormons believe, in comparison to God inspiring people who then wrote the Bible, like Christians believe. Are you Mormon?

Being inspired by the Holy Spirit makes Paul's letters very different from any other Christian writing. I can write a book, say, about the true Gospel of Christ, but I can't say it is inspired in the same way that Paul was inspired to write his letters. Paul was an Apostle of Christ, so that when the Holy Spirit inspired him, what he wrote became Holy Scripture. So the inspiration that came to Paul was a direct inspiration that gave him to confidence to say that what he wrote were the commands of Christ. This gave his writing an authority that no other devotional writing had or has. Sure, he was the one who put pen to paper, so in that sense he wrote the letters, but by a supernatural process, what he wrote was what the Holy Spirit wanted him to write.

The book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. Large sections of it were copied from the KJV version of the Bible. While the Bible itself was totally consistent in its message through all its books. The book of Mormon has no consistency with the Bible, therefore it could not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit in the same way that He inspired Paul.

Actually, your argument about whether the Holy Spirit or Paul wrote his letters is splitting hairs, really. If Paul wrote what the Holy Spirit taught him, then we can quite confidently say that Jesus caused Paul to write what He wanted believers to know.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Perhaps you too are misunderstanding the question.

I think we all agree that God inspired the authors to write. And that through the process of inspiration God wrote the Bible because God inspired them to write what he wanted them to.

The question people are wondering is what is your understanding of that process.

1. Did God inspire them to write using their own language and individuality to do so.
OR
2. Did God inspire them to the point where he dictated word for word what he wanted them to say?

Example:
As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant. Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice, of all deceit, hypocrisy and envy, and of all the ways there are of speaking against people; and be like newborn babies, thirsty for the pure milk of the Word; so that by it, you may grow up into deliverance. For you have tasted that is good.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 1:14, 1 Peter 2:1, 1 Peter 2:2, 1 Peter 2:3 - Complete Jewish Bible

Was every word in that passage dictated by God for Peter to write or did God inspire Peter to write that and Peter used his own words and personality to write the passage?

I'm not challenging you at all. Just trying to clarify so people can know your meaning when you say God wrote the Bible using inspiration to do so.

I believe that the letters of the Apostles, written in the original languages were more or less dictated by the Holy Spirit. This is the basis of the Bible being the inerrant Word of God. This is why we hear the voice of God when we read the Bible. However, because of minor changes brought about by translating the Bible into modern languages, then the literary style of the translators may have a bearing on the text. This does not mean that the modern language text (and I include all English texts right from the first one in the 17th Century) has been altered significantly from the original, but words have changed their meaning since the 17th Century when the KJV was translated. But these are fairly minor cosmetic changes and the basic message of the Gospel has not changed. To determine the meaning of Scriptural passages there is the skill of exegesis, to find out what the author meant by the text, and how his contemporaries understood it. Once that is established, hermeneutics is the method about how we apply the text to modern readers. Sometimes theologians get it right, other times they get it wrong. This is why we have different theologies with them arguing against each other.

This is why we have to do our own praying and study of the Scriptures to establish what the Holy Spirit is really saying, so that we don't end up barking up the wrong tree.

 

[DJWhalen]

I have read most the post and they brought up some instrening (sp) ideas. So I am going to say you came from a one cell ogarnsism. Is that right?

 

[rjs330]

This is why we have to do our own praying and study of the Scriptures to establish what the Holy Spirit is really saying, so that we don't end up barking up the wrong tree.

Lol, I think we have real problems with this. People say they are praying and studying and yet have two different thoughts on a passage. Like the doctrine of speaking in tongues or the doctrine or predestination. Both sincerely believe they are correct and the other is barking up the wrong tree.

I agree with you in regards to the translations. It's difficult to be absolutely precise with some words.

If Paul uses a specific Greek word in a passage, it's my understanding that you believe God told him to use that specific word. Which I effect would mean every word was specifically dictated by God to the writer. Which has the affect of taking away the writers autonomy. Yet we can see their personality in their writings.

Anyway, you are entitled to believe what you wish in this matter. Because it doesn't have any real bearing on what is written. The scriptures are God's word to us and profitable for instruction and doctrine, faith and trust. It's God speaking to us.

 

[sfs]

In 378 he clarified the what was meant when he talked about inspiration. You continued to question the proposition. You think it's quite likely? Why do you think that? Why didn't you just ask him the question?

True, I could have asked the question. As it turns out, yes, that's indeed what he meant.

 

[sfs]

So the inspiration that came to Paul was a direct inspiration that gave him to confidence to say that what he wrote were the commands of Christ.

One of my problems with this view of inspiration is that Paul actually does the opposite: he distinguishes between what he commands and commands that come from Jesus. Nowhere does he claim that he is infallible, nor does he claim that his written words have any more authority than his spoken words. He claims authority as an apostle and as one who has the spirit of God. Anything more than that is a later invention.

 

[Job 33:6]

Being inspired by the Holy Spirit makes Paul's letters very different from any other Christian writing. I can write a book, say, about the true Gospel of Christ, but I can't say it is inspired in the same way that Paul was inspired to write his letters. Paul was an Apostle of Christ, so that when the Holy Spirit inspired him, what he wrote became Holy Scripture. So the inspiration that came to Paul was a direct inspiration that gave him to confidence to say that what he wrote were the commands of Christ. This gave his writing an authority that no other devotional writing had or has. Sure, he was the one who put pen to paper, so in that sense he wrote the letters, but by a supernatural process, what he wrote was what the Holy Spirit wanted him to write.

The book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. Large sections of it were copied from the KJV version of the Bible. While the Bible itself was totally consistent in its message through all its books. The book of Mormon has no consistency with the Bible, therefore it could not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit in the same way that He inspired Paul.

Actually, your argument about whether the Holy Spirit or Paul wrote his letters is splitting hairs, really. If Paul wrote what the Holy Spirit taught him, then we can quite confidently say that Jesus caused Paul to write what He wanted believers to know.

You're just rambling now. God didn't write the Bible. Inspired people did.

 

[Fervent]

I'm not sure adding "theistic" to evolution adds anything to our understanding, especially since evolution by natural selection isn't necessarily atheistic unless we presume that nature is without a Creator. Unless it is seen that there is a real conflict between the Biblical text and the theory of evolution, which is a tension we can't simply ignore but must address in some way. Personally I don't care how many people are convinced that any particular theory is correct no matter what qualifications they have, because my personal experience aligns with Christianity so I must trust the word of God above all else. God be true, and every man a liar.

Now I do not say this to imply that I disbelieve evolution, because I am inclined to accepting theories that enjoy robust support from human observations and subsequent explanation as well-founded and likely true. But if I somehow was told by God that the entire enterprise is a great delusion sent to give those who do not desire the kind of God Jesus is as their God an excuse to disbelieve tomorrow, I would have no problem believing as much. Again, God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Diamond7]

I believe Him.

There is an issue of translation and interpretation. We have all heard the story of the two blind men and the elephant. One has the tail and the other has the trunk and they are having an argument over what an elephant is. My favorite is the drawing of Adam and Eve wearing a leaf. They made clothing back then the same way they do today out of the fiber. You have to spin it, weave it and sow it.

 

[Diamond7]

God didn't write the Bible. Inspired people did.

God declares the end from the beginning. He watches over His word to perform what he said He is going to do. "God said" is used many times in Genesis.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You're just rambling now. God didn't write the Bible. Inspired people did.

That's basically Post Modern Liberal theology that makes God as a concept, the ultimate cause, instead of a real Person. So it would be true for the Liberal that a concept can't write Holy Scripture, and so avoiding that God is a real Person enables him to avoid having to be morally responsible to Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is an issue of translation and interpretation. We have all heard the story of the two blind men and the elephant. One has the tail and the other has the trunk and they are having an argument over what an elephant is. My favorite is the drawing of Adam and Eve wearing a leaf. They made clothing back then the same way they do today out of the fiber. You have to spin it, weave it and sow it.

We are told that Adam and Eve made aprons out of leaves, making the art showing them wearing just one leaf inaccurate. How they were able to sew the leaves together to make the aprons, we are not told. Maybe God thinks that we have enough common sense to work that out for ourselves. Also, the prominent experts in textual criticism of the Bible state that in all the thousands of manuscripts that we have, there are none that show any variation of the foundation message of the Gospel of Christ, and any textual variations are very minor cosmetic ones such as misspelling or punctuation, and that the majority of our translations are totally true to the Greek manuscripts (excluding the paraphrases such as the Living Bible, Message, Passion, and New World versions that were compiled from the KJV by people who are not Biblical Greek scholars). Also, because the Bible was written so that common people could freely understand it, there is no mysterious sub-text, but the literal text says what it means and means what it says. Of course, anyone can make the Bible say what they want by cobbling together a string of verses twisted out of their natural context.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's basically Post Modern Liberal theology that makes God as a concept, the ultimate cause, instead of a real Person. So it would be true for the Liberal that a concept can't write Holy Scripture, and so avoiding that God is a real Person enables him to avoid having to be morally responsible to Him.

Ancient near east cosmology in the old testament is not "modern liberal theology". It's actually the original conservative context of Genesis. The only thing liberal here is your woke interpretation of the Bible, reading it like a science textbook.

Genesis is an ancient near east text. It describes ancient near east cosmology. Just read the Bible.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1
Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

 

[Job 33:6]

That's basically Post Modern Liberal theology that makes God as a concept, the ultimate cause, instead of a real Person. So it would be true for the Liberal that a concept can't write Holy Scripture, and so avoiding that God is a real Person enables him to avoid having to be morally responsible to Him.

This guy thinks that bereshit rabba midrash 4 from 300 AD is "post modern liberal theology".

Just a complete lack of awareness of tradition.

If that isn't ancient enough, the videos reference second temple period texts, and then even older texts and artifacts dating back to ancient Egypt, Babylon, and the broader mesopotamia. It's anything but "liberal theology". It's the original context. It's the most conservative understanding of context there is.