"For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14)

GenemZ

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Romans 1 18-20 is not referring to those drawn by God. It refers to all humans, and makes clear that He evidences Himself to all. This does not mean He draws all.

That is the drawing of God 101.....

For, why are they without "excuse?"

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against
all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress
the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known

about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible
qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."


Yet? According to your skidded way of thinking? They still would have to be with excuse.

That excuse would be? "You did not irresistibly make me believe!" (Its all God's fault)

As always.... I am looking for intellectual honesty.

How can God honor someone's non choice? Or, condemn someone's non choice?

God is not insane. Your doctrine is.
 
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inquiring mind

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That is the drawing of God 101.....

For, why are they without "excuse?"

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against
all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress
the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known

about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible
qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."


Yet? According to your skidded way of thinking? They still would have to be with excuse.

That excuse would be? "You did not irresistibly make me believe!" (Its all God's fault)

As always.... I am looking for intellectual honesty.

How can God honor someone's non choice? Or, condemn someone's non choice?

God is not insane. Your doctrine is.
Never mind my question... I think this response answers it as well.
 
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GenemZ

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Yes, we need God's grace to even hear His call, but do you not consider this (bold) a point of personal 'choice' for us??? Or, are you saying this is a robotic decision after God's intervention?
I am not saying that. Calvinist of a certain ilk say that God forces belief. That we can not choose to believe Nor can we be made free to choose. They fail to differentiate between the body and what is the soul.

The reason man can not believe without God's grace is because our flesh is sinful and tyrannizes the soul within. Its like being so drunk (sin nature) one can not walk, nor drive. Grace sobers up the body so that the soul can see what the issue is. It is the soul that chooses.

It says that God saved our soul, not our flesh! The condemned flesh God crucified in Christ on the Cross!

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I
live by faith (faith comes by hearing the Word!) in the Son of God,
who loved me and gave Himself for me." Gal 2:20​


During drawing grace? Once the flesh has been suppressed and can no longer tyrannize the flesh? The soul that had been tyrannized is made free to choose for, or against God. Just like the angels chose!

If that soul refuses to believe? It can not be called sin. For the sin nature was held down by God's power! Grace during God's drawing held down the tyrannical sin nature making the soul able to choose.

Now if that freed soul chooses to reject God? Like Satan and his angels did? Its not called sin without the sin nature involved. Its called EVIL! Satan and his angels were evil towards the Lord. Satan and his angels never stopped being spiritual.For they are 'spirits.' They understood the issue and made an inexcusable choice. They chose evil, which in turn caused them to fall into becoming sinners.

Jesus did not die for evil! He could not. He would have to reject Himself if He did die for evil. Jesus died for our sins. Sins is what our flesh produces and encourages.

More to think about.

Its not superficial and glib! Like some become after they choose to lock onto a false doctrine that is contradictory to the Love and Justice of God.
 
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inquiring mind

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I am not saying that. Calvinist of a certain ilk say that God forces belief. That we can not choose to believe Nor can we be made free to choose. They fail to differentiate between the body and what is the soul.

The reason man can not believe without God's grace is because our flesh is sinful and tyrannizes the soul within. Its like being so drunk (sin nature) one can not walk, nor drive. Grace sobers up the body so that the soul can see what the issue is. It is the soul that chooses.

It says that God saved our soul, not our flesh! The condemned flesh God crucified in Christ on the Cross!

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I
live by faith (faith comes by hearing the Word!) in the Son of God,
who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Gal 2:20​


During drawing grace? Once the flesh has been suppressed and can no longer tyrannize the flesh? The soul that had been tyrannized is made free to choose for, or against God. Just like the angels chose!

If that soul refuses to believe? It can not be called sin. For the sin nature was held down by God's power! Grace during God's drawing held down the tyrannical sin nature making the soul able to choose.

Now if that freed soul chooses to reject God? Like Satan and his angels did? Its not called sin without the sin nature involved. Its called EVIL! Satan and his angels were evil towards the Lord. Satan and his angels never stopped being spiritual.For they are 'spirits.' They understood the issue and made an inexcusable choice. They chose evil...
Interesting articulation of the subject.
 
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GenemZ

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Interesting articulation of the subject.

Thank you. There has got to be an answer if God is not to be accused of being an author of confusion. Its not going to be some irrational idiocy in the guise of pseudo intellectualism.

Satan frustrates and smirks as he tries to catch a believer in a technicality that was constructed by avoiding the full context of the entire realm of the Scriptures!

Our ignorance is Satan's entrapment power.
 
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GenemZ

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After God's initial drawing .. Those who accept the drawing and believes enters into a new phase of a constant drawing of the believer into becoming transformed by the Spirit into the image of Christ! Progressive Sanctification!


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh is antagonistic against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;and these are in open conflict with one another, so that you can not do the things that you wish"
Gal 5:16-17​

That passage shows how God the Holy Spirit must control our flesh after we are saved! When so protected by God its our soul that God wants to keep feeding more truth. Truth the manna to grow stronger in Him by.

If we are willing? God's Grace (God's enabling power) will suppress our sin nature as long as our soul continues to agree with God. Our agreement is to keep growing in grace and knowledge.

That kind of positive attitude is God's cue to keep on suppressing our flesh's desires. (Religion counterfeits it.) God's grace suppression of our flesh is the enabling of our souls. Grace given to those who take up their own cross and deny self will find that God's grace power for our life becomes our capacity for life and tranquility of soul. God gives greater grace to the humble.

During when God is drawing men God does it in increments. Draws and at various times in our pre salvation life. Its when a soul passes over God's determined finish line in being drawn that God the Father gives that soul over to the Son. Given to Jesus so the saved soul can now see the One who was drawing Him in a way that soul can relate to God readily. To see Jesus is to see the Father! See the Father in a way we are able to relate to.

The fully drawn soul after he enters salvation then enters into a CONSTANT state like one who was being drawn by God before salvation! For once saved? God now desires to be constantly drawing us deeper and deeper into his state of sanctification. That only can be fulfilled by hungering more and more for sound doctrinal teachings as the Spirit backs up the truth we receive with the power of His grace! Jesus was the Word made flesh. We are to become more and more like Jesus became.... And, more and more, understand how He now has returned to being.

grace and peace...
 
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Carl Emerson

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That is the drawing of God 101.....

For, why are they without "excuse?"

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against
all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress
the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known

about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible
qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."


Yet? According to your skidded way of thinking? They still would have to be with excuse.

That excuse would be? "You did not irresistibly make me believe!" (Its all God's fault)

As always.... I am looking for intellectual honesty.

How can God honor someone's non choice? Or, condemn someone's non choice?

God is not insane. Your doctrine is.


Being given evidence of God and being drawn by God are two quite seperate issues.

These verses particularly cover the issue of remote peoples with no contact with the gospel.

Some honour the 'unknown God' and even worship Him before Christian contact and others presented with the same evidence in nature don't.

The New Zealand Maori were a prime example, some elders honoured a 'God above all' they called IO in high places before the missionaries came. When the gospel arrived the impact was immediate.

There are plenty of examples where the opposite has occurred. They kill the missionaries reject the message are are without excuse.

So these verses in Romans 1 show the consistent universal justice of God even to the extent of extending salvation through conscience and intuition pre-gospel.
 
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inquiring mind

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Being given evidence of God and being drawn by God are two quite seperate issues.
Why would God have provided evidence to all (Romans 1:18-20) from the creation, if not drawing all? Maybe few are chosen (Matthew 22:14) because many choose to ignore Him (Matthew 22:5).
 
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GenemZ

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Being given evidence of God and being drawn by God are two quite seperate issues.

You make it easy for yourself, way too easily. Skimming the surface.

To say what you did? Is a contradiction in logic.

Read what it says in detail? Why would God provide evidence?

And make that truth evident in their souls?

So much so, made it evident, that they need to create wickedness to suppress the truth they received? (like Satan suppressed the truth he was presented in order to break away from God)...!

Why would God do all that, if God was not attempting to draw those who ended up being unbelievers y their own choice?

And, how could they be without excuse? For, if God refused to make known to them what they ended up knowing, and then rejected? There could be a huge excuse for not believing. How? You did not make me able to believe like the others. Am I more depraved than total depravity?

Note! "Am I more depraved than total depravity?"

Please? Make sense with what it actually states.. All you offered are fruit of the indoctrination of hyper Calvinist talking points. In that manner, it becomes a mantra, not life.

If God must make it so irresistible so that no one can resist? How in God's name could he make those rejecting Him accountable? That would put the burden of unbelief on God's shoulders.

Is God insane? Please make sense.

Man is totally depraved as long as the Sin Nature in man's body is not dealt with. Our human parents produced our fallen bodies. Yet? God creates the soul. Will God create that which is depraved? Its the body that corrupts the soul!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Why would God have provided evidence to all (Romans 1:18-20) from the creation, if not drawing all? Maybe few are chosen (Matthew 22:14) because many choose to ignore Him (Matthew 22:5).

Yes that is pretty much it...
 
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Carl Emerson

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You make it easy for yourself, way too easily. Skimming the surface.

To say what you did? Is a contradiction in logic.

Read what it says in detail? Why would God provide evidence?

And make that truth evident in their souls?

So much so, made it evident, that they need to create wickedness to suppress the truth they received? (like Satan suppressed the truth he was presented in order to break away from God)...!

Why would God do all that, if God was not attempting to draw those who ended up being unbelievers y their own choice?

And, how could they be without excuse? For, if God refused to make known to them what they ended up knowing, and then rejected? There could be a huge excuse for not believing. How? You did not make me able to believe like the others. Am I more depraved than total depravity?

Note! "Am I more depraved than total depravity?"

Please? Make sense with what it actually states.. All you offered are fruit of the indoctrination of hyper Calvinist talking points. In that manner, it becomes a mantra, not life.

If God must make it so irresistible so that no one can resist? How in God's name could he make those rejecting Him accountable? That would put the burden of unbelief on God's shoulders.

Is God insane? Please make sense.

Man is totally depraved as long as the Sin Nature in man's body is not dealt with. Our human parents produced our fallen bodies. Yet? God creates the soul. Will God create that which is depraved? Its the body that corrupts the soul!

The why would God questions - you will have to ask Him.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light. I didn't make it easy He did.

My bible study has not been indoctrination - I have not been taught in a denominational setting. My main intensive study has been five years reading scripture without any other input. I dont think labels honour the person but foster division. It sounds like you have a lot of questions to hand upstairs...
 
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hedrick

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I checked three commentaries. All agree that "many" means all and "few" here is simply "less than all." But they disagree whether "chosen" means that whether they get in depends upon their preparation or whether there's at least some implication of election. The Greek word is ἐκλεκτός, which I think has a bit less ambiguity than "chosen," in implying election. But in the parable itself, individuals do make choices. Davies takes an intermediate position, which is probably the best:

"In either case the use of ‘chosen’ coheres nicely with the rest of the parable, in which God has been the chief actor and in total control from the beginning. Still, it is quite clear from the parable that individuals make their own choices: the parable itself does not teach an Augustinian doctrine of election, and we do not havand [sic] he either the pessimism of 4 Ezra or a numerical estimate of how many will fail the last judgement. Rather we have paraenesis, exhortation"

Davies, W. D., & Allison, D. C., Jr. (2004). A critical and exegetical commentary on the Gospel according to Saint Matthew (Vol. 3, p. 207). London; New York: T&T Clark International.
 
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GenemZ

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The why would God questions - you will have to ask Him.

Why ask while you keep ignoring what he already tells us?

His yoke is easy and His burden is light. I didn't make it easy He did.



Tell that to Paul.

Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with
stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a
day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move.
I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits,
in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in
danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea;
and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled
and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger
and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been
cold and naked."
2 Cor 11:24-27​

That verse you flipped out was intended for a totally different context.

My bible study has not been indoctrination - I have not been taught in a denominational setting. My main intensive study has been five years reading scripture without any other input. I dont think labels honour the person but foster division. It sounds like you have a lot of questions to hand upstairs...

I had handed this enigma to the Lord. If you grow more to better understand the nature of God you would have to be forced to question your position (which is hyper Calvinism).

At one time I had been confronted by the same apparent dilemma that you have too quickly surrendered to. I did not throw up my hands and surrender. I knew that God could not be that way. For it makes God out to be an arbitrary and a respecter of persons, while the believer who accepts it, shrugs.. and allows God to appear to be evil while claiming God is sovereign and can do what ever he wants.

Instead of surrender, I persisted in prayer and kept seeking. Over time God's grace provided refreshingly sane answers as God's Word was skillfully delineated before my ears.

The waiting period needed (to test and grow the believer's patience) causes suffering for righteousness sake. For we must go through a season of deep personal suffering when we choose the right path. Yet.. As Jesus warned. Many will refuse to suffer for righteousness sake. Instead they prefer a smug (when pushed) and easy form of Christianity. They chose the broad (open minded) and wide way (having many variations of false doctrines to choose from to please one's personal inclination).

So be it.

God brought to me (and others) to sane and sound answers by means of several genuinely dedicated, gifted men of God who were perpetual deep students of the Word of God. Hebrew and Greek were always being exegeted. Greek and Hebrew with their moods and tenses expounded reveal a glorious insight into the light.

Here's the problem.

Calvin was coming out of corrupted and bankrupt form of Christianity. He was starting off fresh. He was what we would call today a "baby Christian." By himself he only could gain so much understanding in his few short years. Since then? Many having stood on his (and others) shoulders were able to see beyond what he was failing to see....

The Word of God is alive and powerful. We are in turn to become alive and powerful in our minds and in our spirits... w It happens when we are truly finding hidden treasures that many were not willing suffer for. Needing to wait, while no answer was immediately given.

When a believer is willing to give up his life's ambitions and accepted the needed suffering required for righteousness sake? When he looks around? Those heavy burdens that discourage light minded believers and weigh them down when it comes to their neighborhood? To the one having been properly trained by the Spirit for gained righteousness? What is too heavy to other believers becomes 'light' and easy" to bear. Even having to face martyrdom (if it ever came down to that) is (by grace) light and easy. That is how His burden becomes light. Because when we have a strong and accurate understanding of God's Word? He 'shares' that yoke with us.

grace and peace...
 
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hedrick

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One more thing pointed out by Davies. Up through vs 10, we have the Jewish leaders rejected and the whole world invited. If you stop there (as the version in Luke does), Christians could congratulate themselves about responding to Jesus' call. But 11 - 13 show that even those who are in the banquet because they accepted the call had better be properly prepared.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Why ask while you keep ignoring what he already tells us?





Tell that to Paul.

Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with
stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a
day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move.
I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits,
in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in
danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea;
and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled
and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger
and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been
cold and naked."
2 Cor 11:24-27​

That verse you flipped out was intended for a totally different context.



I had handed this enigma to the Lord. If you grow more to better understand the nature of God you would have to be forced to question your position (which is hyper Calvinism).

At one time I had been confronted by the same apparent dilemma that you have too quickly surrendered to. I did not throw up my hands and surrender. I knew that God could not be that way. For it makes God out to be an arbitrary and a respecter of persons, while the believer who accepts it, shrugs.. and allows God to appear to be evil while claiming God is sovereign and can do what ever he wants.

Instead of surrender, I persisted in prayer and kept seeking. Over time God's grace provided refreshingly sane answers as God's Word was skillfully delineated before my ears.

The waiting period needed (to test and grow the believer's patience) causes suffering for righteousness sake. For we must go through a season of deep personal suffering when we choose the right path. Yet.. As Jesus warned. Many will refuse to suffer for righteousness sake. Instead they prefer a smug (when pushed) and easy form of Christianity. They chose the broad (open minded) and wide way (having many variations of false doctrines to choose from to please one's personal inclination).

So be it.

God brought to me (and others) to sane and sound answers by means of several genuinely dedicated, gifted men of God who were perpetual deep students of the Word of God. Hebrew and Greek were always being exegeted. Greek and Hebrew with their moods and tenses expounded reveal a glorious insight into the light.

Here's the problem.

Calvin was coming out of corrupted and bankrupt form of Christianity. He was starting off fresh. He was what we would call today a "baby Christian." By himself he only could gain so much understanding in his few short years. Since then? Many having stood on his (and others) shoulders were able to see beyond what he was failing to see....

The Word of God is alive and powerful. We are in turn to become alive and powerful in our minds and in our spirits... w It happens when we are truly finding hidden treasures that many were not willing suffer for. Needing to wait, while no answer was immediately given.

When a believer is willing to give up his life's ambitions and accepted the needed suffering required for righteousness sake? When he looks around? Those heavy burdens that discourage light minded believers and weigh them down when it comes to their neighborhood? To the one having been properly trained by the Spirit for gained righteousness? What is too heavy to other believers becomes 'light' and easy" to bear. Even having to face martyrdom (if it ever came down to that) is (by grace) light and easy. That is how His burden becomes light. Because when we have a strong and accurate understanding of God's Word? He 'shares' that yoke with us.

grace and peace...

Well you have certainly perfected your delivery...

If I wasn't confident in my faith I would surely feel the most pitiful condemned deceiver who dared to suggest that God loves us and keeps us from falling...

I have never understood why my understanding causes folks to think I am taking some easy path when in fact it has been anything but. As for light minded - folks think of me as anything but.

I think a better way to access the validity of a theology is to look at the fruit. When you walk with this understanding are folks healed and released from bondage?
 
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GenemZ

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Well you have certainly perfected your delivery...

If I wasn't confident in my faith I would surely feel the most pitiful condemned deceiver who dared to suggest that God loves us and keeps us from falling...

I have never understood why my understanding causes folks to think I am taking some easy path when in fact it has been anything but. As for light minded - folks think of me as anything but.

I think a better way to access the validity of a theology is to look at the fruit. When you walk with this understanding are folks healed and released from bondage?
Its not an "easy" path. Its sounds right to you. Its not accurately Biblical.

For if we are totally depraved? What is there to save? Save what? What ever it might be? That would be depraved, too, if we are totally depraved.
 
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GenemZ

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If I wasn't confident in my faith I would surely feel the most pitiful condemned deceiver who dared to suggest that God loves us and keeps us from falling...

What you just said? Are you saying that means that when one becomes a believer he can not sin anymore?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Its not an "easy" path. Its sounds right to you. Its not accurately Biblical.

For if we are totally depraved? What is there to save? Save what? What ever it might be? That would be depraved, too, if we are totally depraved.

Is there not an infinite chasm between our pitiful 'righteousness' and His Holiness ??
Did not Isaiah see this?
I have, and know that there is no good in me of myself.
This is in the heart of scripture that we have nothing of ourselves worthy of His Grace.
Our 'righteousness' is as filthy rags.

Anything else is arrogance and pride.

This is totally accurate biblically.
 
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Carl Emerson

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What you just said? Are you saying that means that when one becomes a believer he can not sin anymore?

Not at all, compared to the righteousness of Jesus we fall short every instant. That is why we trust His righteousness not ours.
 
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