No cuss-word shouting, loose living, in the world-staying U2 is not a Christian band, nor do I consider them brothers in Christ.Axver said:
Edit: cleared up some typos
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For anyone who doesn't like Secular music...
- Thread starter peanutbutter12
- Start date
Edit: cleared up some typos
HOW DARE YOU SAY WHO IS AND WHO IS A NOT A CHRISTIAN.
Lucky for you nobody here is pointing out your every sin and then comdeming you to Hell for it.
"in he world-staying US"
I have read over this part several times and have yet to decided what you meant. I have narrowed it down to the following, possible:
1. your grammer choice is wrong
2. You have mistaken the US for U2, yet it still does not make any since
3. You were really talking about the US
4. U2 is going to hell because they are "world-staying"
5. No US bands are Christian (but that would not have anything to do with U2)
6. What you truely meant is none of the above
Lucky for you nobody here is pointing out your every sin and then comdeming you to Hell for it.
"in he world-staying US"
I have read over this part several times and have yet to decided what you meant. I have narrowed it down to the following, possible:
1. your grammer choice is wrong
2. You have mistaken the US for U2, yet it still does not make any since
3. You were really talking about the US
4. U2 is going to hell because they are "world-staying"
5. No US bands are Christian (but that would not have anything to do with U2)
6. What you truely meant is none of the above
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Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. :\ I'm sure they would feel the same about you.PreacherFergy said:
CJ
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fine. don't consider them your brothers in Christ. but they are mine. you choose which people you will accept. and i will choose mine.
funny. these days, people who cuss are considered nonChristians.
but clean up the language, only wear a mask over your black black heart, and wow. you can be an evangelist!
funny. these days, people who cuss are considered nonChristians.
but clean up the language, only wear a mask over your black black heart, and wow. you can be an evangelist!
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Have you not read Matthew 7? We can judge someone by their fruits. Also, James said that if a man cannot bridle his tongue, HIS RELIGION IS VAIN!* kittie * said:
This goes from a pew-warmer to a preacher. An evangelist, pastor, etc. is no different than any other professing Christian. Many volves attempt to enter into God's fold, some as youth teachers, some as preachers, etc. I've been in church my whole life and have personally seen stuff like this happene,
(1) one church the youth pastor was put in jail for molesting 20+ boys
(2) the later pastor was "fired" because he had an affair with his secretary
(3) people in the church run off with other people (seen this at several different churches)
and the list goes on and on and on,
as Paul said,
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Acts 20:29
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Oh my goodness, I can't contain my excitement over this seriously intriguing and thought provoking thread. The arguments are so lucid and intelligent and the rebuttals are equally fascinating. I think I'm going to quit my job and watch with baited breath every waking moment of the day. I can't get enough of this!!! Woweeeeeeeee!!!!
This was just for a smile, I was frustrated, and I take it back......kinda
This was just for a smile, I was frustrated, and I take it back......kinda
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* kittie * said:
hat is horrible true, and sickeningly the truth.
Preacher I have one main problem with you. References are you friends. Stop interpreting the scriptures you are providing, and give the actually scripture itself. I would much rather read what it really says than hear what somebody thinks it might say, and I am sure you probably feel the same towards me.
Your saying we must judge people by their fruits, and numerous people have shown you the good U2 has done, but you counter that by saying you must look and see what's in their heart, so again people give you examples (even though I really don't think any of us can judge what is in someone's heart), and you switch back to saying it is their fruits. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
Fine you can judge people all day long, but the bible also says For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. Mark 7:2 just remember that.
Nobody here is saying that bad people end up in church, I know they do. The only thing I am saying is that it is not YOUR place to decide whether someone is a Christian or not, you may not agree with how they live their life, but that does not give you any right to condemn them to hell.
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blackwasp
Skinless
Not only is Preacher providing you with scripture, but he is also using cross-references to ensure that it is being used correctly! As has been shown repeatedly, IT IS OUR PLACE TO JUDGE THOSE WHO CLAIM THE NAME OF CHRIST!!!Jedi Penguins said:
P.S. I'll avoid the childish urge to pick apart your grammatical shortcomings.
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I was referring to his last post; I do not see the scripture that you are talking about. What I do see is vague references to scripture that does not help me. I want the actual verse, or passage he is talking about so I clearly see if he is right or wrong.
P.S. I honestly do not care if you do pick apart my post for grammatical errors, if youre going to try and bother me you will have to do better. I know my grammar could be better, so try again.
P.S. I honestly do not care if you do pick apart my post for grammatical errors, if youre going to try and bother me you will have to do better. I know my grammar could be better, so try again.
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Childish urge it is. Who cares about grammar? It's not like we're in class. Grammar has nothing to do with truth.
hehe Great movie.
hehe Great movie.
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I have another article for you to read. The person that wrote this can sum up just about everything I have been trying to say much better than I could. I hope you understand where I am coming from by reading this. One thing to note before you do read it, I do not believe what this person says just because THEY said it. I believed what this person said before I knew they said it. It's good to know the difference. Your mind is a wonderful tool, and it CAN help you to decide what you believe is right and is not right. Decide what you believe on your own, NEVER let any other person tell you what you need to be believing.
The Danger of "Christian"
also taken from www.relevantmagazine.com
I have been finding lately I get a queasy feeling when I go into Christian bookstores. It is altogether strange. Here I am, in a place that sells resources intended to help me to grow in my relationship with God, and I feel weird. I feel out of place. I almost feel sick.
Why should I feel sick in a place like that while feeling nothing at all when going into "secular" book and music stores? Shouldnt it be the other way around? At first glance, it seems like it should. But if we look a bit closer, we may discover things arent always what they should be. In fact, many truths of Christianity are things that shouldnt be. The idea that God should take human form and allow His creation to kill Him is one big "shouldnt be." But it is the case nonetheless. That God would give us a second chance shouldnt be. I am thankful that even though it shouldnt be, it is.
I think the biggest reason I feel strange in a Christian bookstore is that it is where I am expected to be. It is where I "should be." Most Christians expect me to buy all of my CDs there if I am serious about following Christ. If I buy music anywhere else, somehow that indicates that I am backsliding or compromising my faith. I am labeled as worldly. The Christian is automatically expected to buy all things "Christian," and only that which is "Christian."
I worry about my brothers and sisters who accept this mentality without question. For one thing, it only serves to dull the healthy intellectual ability to doubt and question. Simply because music is sold in a "Christian" store does not mean it is good for the Christian to buy. A lot of music sold in Christian stores has no real substance. Sure, it passes the criteria by mentioning Jesus or God in most songs and being free of profanity, but it feels like something is missing. Yet, we are told it is good for us to buy. Meanwhile, a lot of music I have bought at "secular" stores God has used in amazing ways to challenge me and draw me closer to Himself. But I am told I should stay away from that stuff. Philippians 4:8 is most often quoted: "Fix your thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Think on things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise."
Its strange the music I listen to might meet all of that criteria, but it is dismissed simply because it is not "Christian." It is also strange the assumption is made that simply because the music may have some questionable content, my thoughts will follow suit for the next umpteen days. This only serves to indicate we are being subconsciously taught to believe whatever goes in to MUST and WILL come out. Doubtless, the music we listen to, the movies we watch and the books we read will have a bearing on how we live our lives. But the discerning, healthy mind is able to evaluateto think, "This is right, and this is wrong." If we only allow the "right" enter our minds, the mind is not exercised. We do not cultivate critical thinking. The mind becomes too weak to throw out the wrong. And therefore we leave ourselves open to accepting a whole lot of wrong, as long as it is labeled "right."
This may be what has happened in the world of Christian marketing. It is scary to think anyone can write a story, make a movie or record a CD, throw the name of Jesus on it, and make a pile of money. It disheartens me to think how many times I have heaped my portion on to that pile simply because it was something I "should" do. I am afraid we may very well have the modern-day equivalent to the moneychangers in the temple in Jesus day. Think about it. Hundreds of thousands of Christians have left themselves open to be financially exploited by people who use the guise of Christ to make themselves money. Five Iron Frenzys Reese Roper puts it poignantly when he sings, "Blind fans, gold mines, you are dollar signs. You are responsible, to watch what you buy, these bands that you love pull the wool over your eyes. So watch them. Watch us."
I am afraid many Christians have become wonderfully sheep-like while making the horrible mistake of failing to look and see who they are following. All too often we have ignorantly followed the sheep in front of us. Is there any good reason that I should restrict my musical selections to those which are "Christian," especially when in our day and age there is very little Christ left in "Christian" music? Is it possible that a musical diet of solely "Christian" music could be detrimental to my spiritual and intellectual health? I think so.
[GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION]
I recently bought Bad Religions CD, The Process of Belief. One day while listening to it, a thought struck me between my ears like a lightening bolt. I get more spiritual benefit from listening to Bad Religion than I do from listening to some "Christian" music. Why? Because Bad Religion has not accepted Christianity, they challenge it. Because they challenge Christianity, they challenge me, the Christian. They are in question, in doubt, and they are searching. They have questions, which they unabashedly ask. When I listen to them, I am forced to answer their questions. Its interesting most Christians run away from their questions simply because Bad Religion is secular (secular=evil).
I really wonder how it must look to Greg Graffin, the front man and lead vocalist of the band. He throws these questions out on the table, and the Christians run away. Will he think the people who run away from the questions have the answer? I think not. He will be more ready to listen to anyone who will embrace the questions and the doubt.
Graffins questions challenge and sharpen me. I want to be able to answer him when he asks, "Who do you believe can put some meaning in your life? Who do you perceive can give you guidance and light? Are they waiting for you in the by and by? Do you even have to try?" I dont want to be the one to answer him when he asks, "Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" I can only guess who he is talking about.
Personally, I think that Bad Religion is so close to the truth. In the song "Sorrow," Graffin sings, "When the only true Messiah rescues us from ourselves, its easy to imagine there will be sorrow no more." Very insightful. I pray God will bring them nearer to Himself that they might come to the wonderful realization of the grace of God.
I am not saying Christian resources are unnecessary or bad. There is a place for them. What I speak out against is the unquestioned acceptance of the mentality that all things labeled "Christian" are good, and everything else is bad. This intellectual must be avoided at all costs. I am not saying all Christians should start listening to bands like Bad Religion either. For some Christians, it could be a spiritual deterrent. We must use our God-given mind and look to the Shepherd (not the sheep) for guidance on these and other issues.
Following the sheep walking two feet in front of you is an easy way to go, but it may not be the right way. We must follow the voice of the Good Shepherd. We know the voice. All we have to do is follow, in EVERY aspect of our lives, including the small things like the selection of the music we listen to. We just might find ourselves surprised at what the voice is saying.
The Danger of "Christian"
also taken from www.relevantmagazine.com
I have been finding lately I get a queasy feeling when I go into Christian bookstores. It is altogether strange. Here I am, in a place that sells resources intended to help me to grow in my relationship with God, and I feel weird. I feel out of place. I almost feel sick.
Why should I feel sick in a place like that while feeling nothing at all when going into "secular" book and music stores? Shouldnt it be the other way around? At first glance, it seems like it should. But if we look a bit closer, we may discover things arent always what they should be. In fact, many truths of Christianity are things that shouldnt be. The idea that God should take human form and allow His creation to kill Him is one big "shouldnt be." But it is the case nonetheless. That God would give us a second chance shouldnt be. I am thankful that even though it shouldnt be, it is.
I think the biggest reason I feel strange in a Christian bookstore is that it is where I am expected to be. It is where I "should be." Most Christians expect me to buy all of my CDs there if I am serious about following Christ. If I buy music anywhere else, somehow that indicates that I am backsliding or compromising my faith. I am labeled as worldly. The Christian is automatically expected to buy all things "Christian," and only that which is "Christian."
I worry about my brothers and sisters who accept this mentality without question. For one thing, it only serves to dull the healthy intellectual ability to doubt and question. Simply because music is sold in a "Christian" store does not mean it is good for the Christian to buy. A lot of music sold in Christian stores has no real substance. Sure, it passes the criteria by mentioning Jesus or God in most songs and being free of profanity, but it feels like something is missing. Yet, we are told it is good for us to buy. Meanwhile, a lot of music I have bought at "secular" stores God has used in amazing ways to challenge me and draw me closer to Himself. But I am told I should stay away from that stuff. Philippians 4:8 is most often quoted: "Fix your thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Think on things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise."
Its strange the music I listen to might meet all of that criteria, but it is dismissed simply because it is not "Christian." It is also strange the assumption is made that simply because the music may have some questionable content, my thoughts will follow suit for the next umpteen days. This only serves to indicate we are being subconsciously taught to believe whatever goes in to MUST and WILL come out. Doubtless, the music we listen to, the movies we watch and the books we read will have a bearing on how we live our lives. But the discerning, healthy mind is able to evaluateto think, "This is right, and this is wrong." If we only allow the "right" enter our minds, the mind is not exercised. We do not cultivate critical thinking. The mind becomes too weak to throw out the wrong. And therefore we leave ourselves open to accepting a whole lot of wrong, as long as it is labeled "right."
This may be what has happened in the world of Christian marketing. It is scary to think anyone can write a story, make a movie or record a CD, throw the name of Jesus on it, and make a pile of money. It disheartens me to think how many times I have heaped my portion on to that pile simply because it was something I "should" do. I am afraid we may very well have the modern-day equivalent to the moneychangers in the temple in Jesus day. Think about it. Hundreds of thousands of Christians have left themselves open to be financially exploited by people who use the guise of Christ to make themselves money. Five Iron Frenzys Reese Roper puts it poignantly when he sings, "Blind fans, gold mines, you are dollar signs. You are responsible, to watch what you buy, these bands that you love pull the wool over your eyes. So watch them. Watch us."
I am afraid many Christians have become wonderfully sheep-like while making the horrible mistake of failing to look and see who they are following. All too often we have ignorantly followed the sheep in front of us. Is there any good reason that I should restrict my musical selections to those which are "Christian," especially when in our day and age there is very little Christ left in "Christian" music? Is it possible that a musical diet of solely "Christian" music could be detrimental to my spiritual and intellectual health? I think so.
[GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION]
I recently bought Bad Religions CD, The Process of Belief. One day while listening to it, a thought struck me between my ears like a lightening bolt. I get more spiritual benefit from listening to Bad Religion than I do from listening to some "Christian" music. Why? Because Bad Religion has not accepted Christianity, they challenge it. Because they challenge Christianity, they challenge me, the Christian. They are in question, in doubt, and they are searching. They have questions, which they unabashedly ask. When I listen to them, I am forced to answer their questions. Its interesting most Christians run away from their questions simply because Bad Religion is secular (secular=evil).
I really wonder how it must look to Greg Graffin, the front man and lead vocalist of the band. He throws these questions out on the table, and the Christians run away. Will he think the people who run away from the questions have the answer? I think not. He will be more ready to listen to anyone who will embrace the questions and the doubt.
Graffins questions challenge and sharpen me. I want to be able to answer him when he asks, "Who do you believe can put some meaning in your life? Who do you perceive can give you guidance and light? Are they waiting for you in the by and by? Do you even have to try?" I dont want to be the one to answer him when he asks, "Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" I can only guess who he is talking about.
Personally, I think that Bad Religion is so close to the truth. In the song "Sorrow," Graffin sings, "When the only true Messiah rescues us from ourselves, its easy to imagine there will be sorrow no more." Very insightful. I pray God will bring them nearer to Himself that they might come to the wonderful realization of the grace of God.
I am not saying Christian resources are unnecessary or bad. There is a place for them. What I speak out against is the unquestioned acceptance of the mentality that all things labeled "Christian" are good, and everything else is bad. This intellectual must be avoided at all costs. I am not saying all Christians should start listening to bands like Bad Religion either. For some Christians, it could be a spiritual deterrent. We must use our God-given mind and look to the Shepherd (not the sheep) for guidance on these and other issues.
Following the sheep walking two feet in front of you is an easy way to go, but it may not be the right way. We must follow the voice of the Good Shepherd. We know the voice. All we have to do is follow, in EVERY aspect of our lives, including the small things like the selection of the music we listen to. We just might find ourselves surprised at what the voice is saying.
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I was not "attacking" preacher's grammar. I had not even thought about his grammar until just now. I was however attacking, if I must use that word, the fact that I did not understand what he meant by something and I was looking for clarification. How dare I!
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Jedi Penguins said:
This is a fantastic article! Sadly, the history of this debate shows me that even if Preacher and his supporters read it, they will offer no tangible argument to counter the position. Jedi, I applaud your efforts. I'm sorry your arguments will fall on deaf ears.
As far as the grammer thing goes, GROW UP PEOPLE!!!
p.s. Yes, this IS a challenge...
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