Focal Point of the Liturgy

[Shane R]

I was contemplating the liturgy earlier today, and especially the eucharist. I think it can be accurately said that the focal point of a Catholic or Orthodox liturgy is the eucharist. The Lutheran liturgy attempts to strike a perfect balance between word and sacrament but in practice - and I attended Lutheran churches for 2 1/2 yrs. - tends to imbalance toward the word, evidenced by the spotty availability of weekly communion in many Lutheran bodies. The Anglican liturgy seems - and I attended a continuing church for 9 months - to really celebrate the liturgy itself, the preparatory prayers and graduals, with no particular emphasis either way; borne out best in the morning prayer service.

If one believes the eucharist to be sacramental, a vehicle of grace to the one who receives in faith - which all 5 bodies at least officially teach - it should be the focal point of the service. If the sacrament is not going to be offered a congregation had as well have a lay led morning prayer type of service.

This is no excuse for some of the truly awful preaching I have heard at times. Whether it be from an incompetent ill-prepared Catholic priest or an Orthodox priest who dwells only on theory and never makes an application or an overly evangelical Lutheran or an essentially theologically neutral Anglican attempting to avoid any sort of strong statement, there is some bad preaching out there. These churches have the valuable tool of the lectionary to give some coherent direction for the homily.

 

[Shane R]

I've been thinking about this so much because I am relocating and will need to find a new church. Military chaplains wore me out with bad preaching, and I don't know if I could last in a church that doesn't engage me in the sermons. I also can't bring myself to affiliate with a church that has the marathon-length bilingual liturgy. And I don't feel like I'm going to church when the service is low church, really almost evangelical.

Ultimately, I think the chief factor is regular service of the eucharist. One of the churches I am looking at only has a presiding clergyman every other week. That is different from churches that have a clergyman every week and choose to omit the sacrament, as was common with some churches I attended in the past - a practice which I never agreed with.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

Nowadays, I cannot imagine a church service without the Eucharist. That would be kind of like a service without a sermon. I was a Lutheran for years and I noticed some churches practicing Communion every other week or even less frequently. It always seemed a little odd or something was a bit off or something was missing during those services that did not include communion. Now, there are some Lutheran churches that have the Eucharist with each service. I have been going to an Anglo-Catholic ACNA church and the Eucharist is such an important part of the service, every service - really at its center. It has become an important part of each week for me. It is a time where I try to let go of the problems and garbage from the previous week and try to start the new week afresh. But there is more to it than a time of reflection or its symbolism. Why wouldn't any church that believes Christ is truly present in the Eucharist want to celebrate that at every service?

 

[Cappadocious]

Well, we have non-Eucharistic services in all churches mentioned here.

 

[Albion]

I was contemplating the liturgy earlier today, and especially the eucharist. I think it can be accurately said that the focal point of a Catholic or Orthodox liturgy is the eucharist. The Lutheran liturgy attempts to strike a perfect balance between word and sacrament but in practice - and I attended Lutheran churches for 2 1/2 yrs. - tends to imbalance toward the word, evidenced by the spotty availability of weekly communion in many Lutheran bodies. The Anglican liturgy seems - and I attended a continuing church for 9 months - to really celebrate the liturgy itself, the preparatory prayers and graduals, with no particular emphasis either way; borne out best in the morning prayer service.

If one believes the eucharist to be sacramental, a vehicle of grace to the one who receives in faith - which all 5 bodies at least officially teach - it should be the focal point of the service. If the sacrament is not going to be offered a congregation had as well have a lay led morning prayer type of service.

I think that, generally speaking, your message here is reasonable. However, I think several parts of it might not be quite as you have said.

For one, it could be argued that to have the Eucharist every other week, as is characteristic of many parishes, doesn't diminish the Holy Communion services when offered. As you know, churches that do this often say that that it keeps the Order for Holy Communion from becoming routine and, hence, less valued. If that is true, it means that the perspective wants to make the Eucharist even more important.

And, after all, if receiving Communion as often as is physically possible is some sort of ideal, then we ought to be having one daily, not just weekly. Or maybe we could have two of them back to back and everyone who attended the first service could get in another that same morning. I'm not making a serious proposal, of course, but it can't be that "as many as possible as often as possible" is the height of appreciating the sacrament.

And then, the idea of laymen officiating at non-Eucharistic services. That is done in some cases, to be sure, but I don't see any reason to think that Morning Prayer is so unimportant that we wouldn't even bother the pastor to officiate.

 

[Sean611]

The Lutheran liturgy attempts to strike a perfect balance between word and sacrament but in practice - and I attended Lutheran churches for 2 1/2 yrs. - tends to imbalance toward the word, evidenced by the spotty availability of weekly communion in many Lutheran bodies.

I know that many LCMS Lutherans really wish communion was once a week and there has been a movement to that format in many parishes. I also tend to agree that they try to balance word and sacrament, however, whether they tend to go one way or the other is really dependent on the parish. Also, most ELCA Lutheran parishes celebrate communion at least once a week.

If one believes the eucharist to be sacramental, a vehicle of grace to the one who receives in faith - which all 5 bodies at least officially teach - it should be the focal point of the service. If the sacrament is not going to be offered a congregation had as well have a lay led morning prayer type of service.

This is no excuse for some of the truly awful preaching I have heard at times. Whether it be from an incompetent ill-prepared Catholic priest or an Orthodox priest who dwells only on theory and never makes an application or an overly evangelical Lutheran or an essentially theologically neutral Anglican attempting to avoid any sort of strong statement, there is some bad preaching out there. These churches have the valuable tool of the lectionary to give some coherent direction for the homily.

I am very thankful that my priest follows the lectionary. I've heard about one Episcopal priest that preaches on the environment every single Sunday, regardless of the lessons contained in the lectionary.

 

[Kalevalatar]

In the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, then, I believe we have a good balance of the Word and the Sacrament. The Mass, Communion Service, is the weekly norm. The liturgy has four parts: Gathering, God's Word, the Lord's Supper, and Conclusion. Services of the Word (i.e. without Communion) are rare, whereas we offer weekly morning, midday, and evening Communion services which last about 30 minutes and don't have a sermon at all.

In special services such as Ordination Masses, retirement or first sermons, rightly or wrongly, the focus may be more on the sermon and speaker at the expense of the Communion. It's only humane to be eager to hear what kind of sermon and sermon style the brand new vicar, archbishop, bishop or parish pastor has. Apart from the parish pastors, vicars/cathedral and county deans, bishops and archbishop are the organisational and spiritual overseers of their dioceses and parishes, so historically, the focus and subject of their first and Ordination sermons have been significant and indicative, hence the attention.

 

[Shane R]

In the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, then, I believe we have a good balance of the Word and the Sacrament. The Mass, Communion Service, is the weekly norm. The liturgy has four parts: Gathering, God's Word, the Lord's Supper, and Conclusion. Services of the Word (i.e. without Communion) are rare, whereas we offer weekly morning, midday, and evening Communion services which last about 30 minutes and don't have a sermon at all.

In special services such as Ordination Masses, retirement or first sermons, rightly or wrongly, the focus may be more on the sermon and speaker at the expense of the Communion. It's only humane to be eager to hear what kind of sermon and sermon style the brand new vicar, archbishop, bishop or parish pastor has. Apart from the parish pastors, vicars/cathedral and county deans, bishops and archbishop are the organisational and spiritual overseers of their dioceses and parishes, so historically, the focus and subject of their first and Ordination sermons have been significant and indicative, hence the attention.

I am always interested by your perspective. I think the Finnish Lutheran Church is more high church than most American expressions of Lutheranism.

 

[FireDragon76]

Elevating the Sacrament above the Word is very problematic, at least from my perspective. If the Word were not important, why did Jesus bother to leave us so many spoken words recorded in the Gospels?

 

[Cappadocious]

To contemplate the Word apart from the Eucharist is to have already rent asunder what God ordered together.

 

[Shane R]

I visited a church today. The church was a small Byzantine Catholic fellowship. I enjoyed the service though the tones of the chant were a little foreign to my ear. The celebrant was a wonderful chanter and his homily was thoughtful and meaningful. He emphasized the feast day, All Saints, rather than Father's Day which I like since the last Lutheran church I attended had the tendency to forget the church calendar completely in favor of whatever was going on with the secular calendar.

I was quite surprised that the Father communed my wife and I. I had expected a blessing in lieu of the sacrament. He was ordained as an Orthodox priest and celebrated in that manner for 10 years before seeking fellowship with Rome. My wife had never been to a Divine Liturgy and was awed by the continuous chant, the rythym of the liturgy, and appreciated the incense which was a rare occurrence in her Anglican background.

We talked at length about our impressions of the service. We agreed to go again.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I was contemplating the liturgy earlier today, and especially the eucharist. I think it can be accurately said that the focal point of a Catholic or Orthodox liturgy is the eucharist. The Lutheran liturgy attempts to strike a perfect balance between word and sacrament but in practice - and I attended Lutheran churches for 2 1/2 yrs. - tends to imbalance toward the word, evidenced by the spotty availability of weekly communion in many Lutheran bodies. The Anglican liturgy seems - and I attended a continuing church for 9 months - to really celebrate the liturgy itself, the preparatory prayers and graduals, with no particular emphasis either way; borne out best in the morning prayer service.

If one believes the eucharist to be sacramental, a vehicle of grace to the one who receives in faith - which all 5 bodies at least officially teach - it should be the focal point of the service. If the sacrament is not going to be offered a congregation had as well have a lay led morning prayer type of service.

This is no excuse for some of the truly awful preaching I have heard at times. Whether it be from an incompetent ill-prepared Catholic priest or an Orthodox priest who dwells only on theory and never makes an application or an overly evangelical Lutheran or an essentially theologically neutral Anglican attempting to avoid any sort of strong statement, there is some bad preaching out there. These churches have the valuable tool of the lectionary to give some coherent direction for the homily.

I think it's hard to have the liturgy as a focus if other things are truly held to be central as well - such as the preaching or interacting with other members. The Eucharist is to be at the Center but the way I see it in regards to other things is akin to the same way one sees a web. There are things which are MORE central in the web but every piece is interconnected - including the outer strands which hold things together.

When I consider the Eucharist, it is important - but truly incomplete outside of the daily practice saints do on their own in their prayer time with evening/morning prayers or acts of service to their neighbor and the community. The Eucharist fuels others in learning how to live right - but coming into Eucharist without learning how (or being concerned with) living right makes the Eucharist of no effect. Moreover, how one interacts with the other members during a service is VERY central - and the preaching of God's Word is also central. It all interacts together...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I visited a church today. The church was a small Byzantine Catholic fellowship. I enjoyed the service though the tones of the chant were a little foreign to my ear. The celebrant was a wonderful chanter and his homily was thoughtful and meaningful. He emphasized the feast day, All Saints, rather than Father's Day which I like since the last Lutheran church I attended had the tendency to forget the church calendar completely in favor of whatever was going on with the secular calendar.

I was quite surprised that the Father communed my wife and I. I had expected a blessing in lieu of the sacrament. He was ordained as an Orthodox priest and celebrated in that manner for 10 years before seeking fellowship with Rome. My wife had never been to a Divine Liturgy and was awed by the continuous chant, the rythym of the liturgy, and appreciated the incense which was a rare occurrence in her Anglican background.

We talked at length about our impressions of the service. We agreed to go again.

Thankful for the developments happening on your side. Praying for all things to work out for you..

 

[Shane R]

My wife asked if we could go to an Anglican church again (we were attending a continuing parish when we married). After some discussion we concluded that the Eastern Catholic parish is not a place for us. She was a little put off by how 'Catholic' the liturgy was and we were both disappointed by how insular the group was - I think most didn't see a need to embrace anyone new.

Now I am too conservative for TEC and Canterbury Anglicanism so we visited an ACNA parish. I had some misgivings about ACNA, but I talked to the assistant priest earlier in the week and we discussed many things and he explained that the parish fell under a conservative diocese. I still have some concerns with the province.

The service was barely broad church, but high church Anglicanism in Texas seems to be more rare than vegetarianism. The music was a blend of contemporary songs and traditional hymnody, which I tend to find unfortunate. However, I can tolerate that. I was also disappointed that no part of the service was chanted. She thought it was a little low church as well but she liked the bulk of the service. They did not tamper with the liturgy by eliminating parts of it, as I have seen many Lutherans do in 'contemporary' services.

What I liked was that the deuterocanon was read. The sermon was drawn from the readings and adequately theological and practical. The eucharist was celebrated with proper reverence. Both priests were approachable and engaging; one had a background much like my own and the other was very familiar with Orthodoxy. The group was excited to have visitors. She wants to go to this church again and I am happy for that.

 

[Albion]

My wife asked if we could go to an Anglican church again (we were attending a continuing parish when we married). After some discussion we concluded that the Eastern Catholic parish is not a place for us. She was a little put off by how 'Catholic' the liturgy was and we were both disappointed by how insular the group was - I think most didn't see a need to embrace anyone new.

Now I am too conservative for TEC and Canterbury Anglicanism so we visited an ACNA parish. I had some misgivings about ACNA, but I talked to the assistant priest earlier in the week and we discussed many things and he explained that the parish fell under a conservative diocese. I still have some concerns with the province.

The service was barely broad church, but high church Anglicanism in Texas seems to be more rare than vegetarianism. The music was a blend of contemporary songs and traditional hymnody, which I tend to find unfortunate. However, I can tolerate that. I was also disappointed that no part of the service was chanted. She thought it was a little low church as well but she liked the bulk of the service. They did not tamper with the liturgy by eliminating parts of it, as I have seen many Lutherans do in 'contemporary' services.

What I liked was that the deuterocanon was read. The sermon was drawn from the readings and adequately theological and practical. The eucharist was celebrated with proper reverence. Both priests were approachable and engaging; one had a background much like my own and the other was very familiar with Orthodoxy. The group was excited to have visitors. She wants to go to this church again and I am happy for that.

If this parish worked for you, I am happy for you. The thing about ACNA is that it's a grab bag. One parish and its pastor can be substantially unlike the next one, and the whole church is uncertain where it wants to go in both matters of belief and practice. That's why I prefer Continuing Anglican churches where the variance is mainly a matter of the degree of ceremony you'll find, not anything else. But if there is none available to you, and the ACNA church seemed right, I hope you continue with it.

 

[Shane R]

We had settled on a parish and the Navy cut orders to transfer us to another state. The process will begin again, this time in a more secular and much more liberal environment.

 

[Albion]

We had settled on a parish and the Navy cut orders to transfer us to another state. The process will begin again, this time in a more secular and much more liberal environment.

Well, that's a kick in the head, isn't it? Not that servicemen get reassigned, but that the timing is unfortunate considering that you'd just figured out the best way to handle the parish matter.

OTOH, I don't find that the liberal parts of the country are more likely to have liberal Anglican parishes and the conservative parts more likely to have conservative ones.

Since almost all denominations these days, including all the Continuing Anglican churches, post a list of their parishes and (most often) with websites, maybe you can get a feel for what will be available to you in advance.

 

[Shane R]

As things have shaken out, we transferred to another location in TX. We are looking forward to attending Christmas Eve service tomorrow.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I visited a church today. The church was a small Byzantine Catholic fellowship. I enjoyed the service though the tones of the chant were a little foreign to my ear. The celebrant was a wonderful chanter and his homily was thoughtful and meaningful. He emphasized the feast day, All Saints, rather than Father's Day which I like since the last Lutheran church I attended had the tendency to forget the church calendar completely in favor of whatever was going on with the secular calendar.

I was quite surprised that the Father communed my wife and I. I had expected a blessing in lieu of the sacrament. He was ordained as an Orthodox priest and celebrated in that manner for 10 years before seeking fellowship with Rome. My wife had never been to a Divine Liturgy and was awed by the continuous chant, the rythym of the liturgy, and appreciated the incense which was a rare occurrence in her Anglican background.

We talked at length about our impressions of the service. We agreed to go again.

I am disappointed that a Lutheran parish would skip major holy days since we celebrate All Saints on the closest Sunday to the feast. Can I ask if the congregation was ELCA or LCMS?

 

[Shane R]

LCMS. The particular congregation was in the Hampton Roads region of Virginia. It is worse in Texas, as many of the LCMS congregations are by appearance nearly Baptist with a nod to sacraments. Here NALC is usually more liturgically traditional and theologically focused than LCMS.