Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

[marineimaging]

I am a Christian. All I can say is Wow. Seriously. There are people who believe the earth is flat and not round like all the other planets? They believe this becasue God didn't get those details in the beginning? So, how do you know that cattle had horns to defend itself and the female cows had teets to distribute milk to a calf? God didn't describe them to that detail in Genesis when He created them. How do you know man had visible organs until after they ate of the three and covered up? God didn't describe man to that detail so it must be that men were organless until He said different. John 21:25 says the whole world could not contain all the books that would need to be written about what Jesus did. Can you imagine all the books that would need be written about how God created every creature, rock, plant, planet, space, time..., on so on?

 

[JackRT]

Only if you believe the earth is a sphere. If you do then eternal security is revoked.

That is hardly a salvation issue.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

That is hardly a salvation issue.

i know. read a few posts around that one to get context?!

 

[JeremyTheAnglercan]

The idea of a flat earth is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Using the Bible as a science textbook is also a silly notion. And I think the writers of it would also find it silly.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

The earth is quite old, life began roughly 550,000,000 years ago. The earth has been host to many ages if many different kinds of life which can be observed in archeology.

The Bible is very young, the spirit has always been able to speak to the heart of Man.

That's some Urantia stuff? Good book. I'll have to finish reading it. I got bogged down in the early chapters when I tried last time.

 

[-57]

He does not need to be saved therefore He gained nothing: we on the other hand gained salvation through Him and can lose our salvation through Him as well.

That would be biblically incorrect.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

[SeventyOne]

The idea of a flat earth is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Using the Bible as a science textbook is also a silly notion. And I think the writers of it would also find it silly.

You're right, it's not a science book or a history book. Those things have flaws and misrepresentations.

But it is the word of God, something far greater than any science or history book could ever aspire to become.

 

[-57]

Well it does change. constellations don't stay in the same place as the year goes on, and other stuff comes in to view.

Well into the southern hemisphere...you don't see the north star...in fact as one travels south the north star moves closer to the horizon....which would not happen on a flat earth.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?

Here's some of my evidence to start off:

• The night sky in the northern hemisphere appears to rotate around polaris. It appears to rotate the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere around the southern cross. This can't happen on the flat earth model.
  
• On the flat earth model, someone in Canada and someone in Argentina could potentially be looking at different sides of the moon, but everyone always sees the same side.
  
• Gps systems are created with a spherical earth in mind. They wouldn't work otherwise.
  
• Ships disappear over the horizon bottom first.
  
• This video shows how snipers have to take in to account the rotation of the Earth when shooting.

OK. Here is my opinion. Such a question is silly, silly, silly. The only people who could believe in a flat earth are uneducated savages or mentally ill conspiracy theorists who absolutely disbelieve in scientific facts. We have a millions of photos from space satellites, etc. showing the earth from space, and it is always quite round, as is every planet in our solar system (and sun and moon as well). No scientist would consider our earth to be flat. It is why we have horizons and cannot “see to the ends of the earth” even with the best telescopes. There is in fact no end of the earth because it is quite easy to circumnavigate the globe, which is done constantly by airplanes and sometimes by ships (remember Magellan?).

But yes, some people still insist on living in the ignorant worldview of a thousand years ago.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

You're right, it's not a science book or a history book. Those things have flaws and misrepresentations.

But it is the word of God, something far greater than any science or history book could ever aspire to become.

Jesus frequently spoke in parables and metaphors. The Bible is full of metaphors and illustrative stories that were never meant to be taken literally.
Like "to the four corners of the earth." We all know what that means and it does not mean that the earth actually has corners.

Here is my take on the relationship between the Bible and science:
On the Bible and Science: Preliminary Principles Associated with God's Purposes | Virtueonline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

 

[chevyontheriver]

The earth is quite old, life began roughly 550,000,000 years ago. The earth has been host to many ages if many different kinds of life which can be observed in archeology.

The Bible is very young, the spirit has always been able to speak to the heart of Man.

Life on earth is now estimated to be a few billion years old. The Cambrian era alone is estimated to be 600 million years ago. In the Cambrian era most all of the phyla we now have were present.

So the earth is old and life on it is old. What does that say about the validity of the Bible, which wasn't even around until after humans came on the scene? Pretty much nothing. You can pretend that humans invented the Bible, which is just the other side of the coin from saying the world is 6000 years old.

 

[AFrazier]

The earth is not flat.

1) Lunar eclipses are predictable with 100% accuracy. That's because we know what causes them, we know the sizes and shapes of the bodies involved, their orbits, their rates of orbit and rotation, speeds, etc. The flat earth model has no viable explanation for the phenomenon. But I can list the next twenty-five or more lunar eclipses visible from their location, what time they'll start and end, whether they are full, partial or penumbral, and at what point in the sky they'll begin and end. No flat earth theory can do the same, because they have no real explanation for them.

2) Polar days and nights defy the flat earth model. There are as many as forty days of day or night at either polar region. This is incompatible with a flat earth model where the sun travels around and above a disc. The sun would have to occasionally travel in a small circle at the center of the disc, which would result in extremely short days in all other areas of the world. And it wouldn't work at all with a south pole that ranges the entire edge of the flat earth model. The sun would follow the outer edge and only illuminate certain areas at a time.

3) Constellations don't work with a flat earth model. On a flat plane, people in North and South America would be able to see the same constellations. But some are visible to one hemisphere and not to the other, and vice versa. That's because the curvature obscures the view.

4) While it might be argued that ships disappearing hull first as they grow more distant is just a mirage, the same can't be said about buildings that are half gone from the bottom up, as is the case when you look across Lake Michigan from New York with a telescope.

5) Then there's the math, which isn't debatable. Before there were government conspiracies, mathematicians in the third or fourth century BC had already figured out that the earth was a sphere using sticks, shadows, and simple math. Any elementary class could do the same experiment.

My experience with the flat earth folks is that they refuse to see reason, so it's pointless to debate it. They have an answer for everything. And no matter how shabby or ridiculous those answers are, they won't give up the ship. Everyone should do themselves a favor and not have this argument.

 

[SeventyOne]

Jesus frequently spoke in parables and metaphors.

That's just excuses. Jesus spoke in parables only after speaking plainly and being rejected by the people. The purpose of the parables was to hide the truth from the damned. It was a mercy so they would not continue to reject the truth and have greater judgment come on them in the end. Parables were a judgment on the people to keep them blind, not to convey to them some deeper meaning. (Matthew 13:10-17)

The Bible is full of metaphors and illustrative stories that were never meant to be taken literally.
Like "to the four corners of the earth." We all know what that means and it does not mean that the earth actually has corners.

In your opinion.

Here is my take on the relationship between the Bible and science:
On the Bible and Science: Preliminary Principles Associated with God's Purposes | Virtueonline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

That sounds very much like what I've heard Dr. Michael Heiser say concerning the flat earth issue. Basically, he said that the early people weren't capable of understanding the earth was round, therefore, He instead made it sound flat so they could cope with it. I must say when I heard that, or similar lines of reasoning like in the article, I have a hard time imagining a more stupid, condescending, and silly line of reasoning. It's not hard for God to say, "Earth, ball, go around big bright thing. Deal with it."

 

[SeventyOne]

The earth is not flat.

1) Lunar eclipses are predictable with 100% accuracy. That's because we know what causes them, we know the sizes and shapes of the bodies involved, their orbits, their rates of orbit and rotation, speeds, etc. The flat earth model has no viable explanation for the phenomenon. But I can list the next twenty-five or more lunar eclipses visible from their location, what time they'll start and end, whether they are full, partial or penumbral, and at what point in the sky they'll begin and end. No flat earth theory can do the same, because they have no real explanation for them.

2) Polar days and nights defy the flat earth model. There are as many as forty days of day or night at either polar region. This is incompatible with a flat earth model where the sun travels around and above a disc. The sun would have to occasionally travel in a small circle at the center of the disc, which would result in extremely short days in all other areas of the world. And it wouldn't work at all with a south pole that ranges the entire edge of the flat earth model. The sun would follow the outer edge and only illuminate certain areas at a time.

3) Constellations don't work with a flat earth model. On a flat plane, people in North and South America would be able to see the same constellations. But some are visible to one hemisphere and not to the other, and vice versa. That's because the curvature obscures the view.

4) While it might be argued that ships disappearing hull first as they grow more distant is just a mirage, the same can't be said about buildings that are half gone from the bottom up, as is the case when you look across Lake Michigan from New York with a telescope.

5) Then there's the math, which isn't debatable. Before there were government conspiracies, mathematicians in the third or fourth century BC had already figured out that the earth was a sphere using sticks, shadows, and simple math. Any elementary class could do the same experiment.

My experience with the flat earth folks is that they refuse to see reason, so it's pointless to debate it. They have an answer for everything. And no matter how shabby or ridiculous those answers are, they won't give up the ship. Everyone should do themselves a favor and not have this argument.

I'm not a flat-earther, is I said in the beginning of the thread. But unlike many others, when this subject came up on my radar some months ago, instead of just having the typical ignorant, "that's just stupid" reaction, I set out to find out why such people are persuaded to think that way.

In the months I've been looking at it, I've seen every point you've made reasonably debunked multiple times. Maybe you should actually look at the other side before flatly dismissing it.

 

[Colter]

Life on earth is now estimated to be a few billion years old. The Cambrian era alone is estimated to be 600 million years ago. In the Cambrian era most all of the phyla we now have were present.

So the earth is old and life on it is old. What does that say about the validity of the Bible, which wasn't even around until after humans came on the scene? Pretty much nothing. You can pretend that humans invented the Bible, which is just the other side of the coin from saying the world is 6000 years old.

The findings of science don't debunk faith, just the assumptions and speculations of the people of faith who may be well intentioned in creating a comprehensive story of origins for consumption by Bronze age sheep headers.

 

[-57]

Life on earth is now estimated to be a few billion years old. The Cambrian era alone is estimated to be 600 million years ago. In the Cambrian era most all of the phyla we now have were present.

So the earth is old and life on it is old. What does that say about the validity of the Bible, which wasn't even around until after humans came on the scene? Pretty much nothing. You can pretend that humans invented the Bible, which is just the other side of the coin from saying the world is 6000 years old.

You said above...."So the earth is old and life on it is old. What does that say about the validity of the Bible"
..It says you may as well throw your bible into the trash. If life evolved then the bible is false.

 

[esbee]

1. If the earth is flat like a coin then is the moon also flat like a coin? If so why do we see it in phases that are curved rather than disk shaped as it revolves around us?

2. Why are the other planets round like balls? (which can be proved by looking through powerful telescopes)

3. If the earth is flat what is on the other side? What about the photos taken from space that show the earth is a sphere?

4. And why is the shadow of the earth on the moon during eclipses curved? Wouldn't the earth's shadow on the moon be a straight edge?

5. If the earth is truly flat, then what is the purpose of governments and science pushing a round earth theory and trying to keep the rest of us from knowing the truth? How does it benefit them?

6. Haven't there been sailing ships that have circumnavigated the globe going in one direction and come back to their starting point?

7. Haven't there been airplanes that have circumnavigated the globe going in one direction and come back to their starting point?

6. Has anyone been to the edge?

7. What keeps the oceans from falling off the edge if the earth is flat?

8. Has Big Foot ever been to the moon?

9. Why do people think such strange and outlandish things? Inquiring minds want to know?

 

[expos4ever]

Here's the problem: Even discussing such an absurd issue gives the erroneous impression that this matter has not been settled. It has been settled. The flat-earthers are in need of a good shunning, to use an out-dated term. Yes, they are free to express their views, but we are also free to ignore them.

The irrational distrust of science is getting out of hand. It's one thing to believe that the earth is flat - that hurts no one. But the same irrational thinking is responsible for climate change denial.

And that can be a disaster for the human race.

 

[Colter]

Here's the problem: Even discussing such an absurd issue gives the erroneous impression that this matter has not been settled. It has been settled. The flat-earthers are in need of a good shunning, to use an out-dated term. Yes, they are free to express their views, but we are also free to ignore them.

The irrational distrust of science is getting out of hand. It's one thing to believe that the earth is flat - that hurts no one. But the same irrational thinking is responsible for climate change denial.

And that can be a disaster for the human race.

"Like"

for some reason I can't rate this thread????

 

[sdowney717]

Well into the southern hemisphere...you don't see the north star...in fact as one travels south the north star moves closer to the horizon....which would not happen on a flat earth.

Jesus says the stars will fall to the earth, be grounded, do you believe it?
The fig tree again gets its mention referring to a sign of the end of days.
What a sight seeing these things,would cause great turmoil and fear, especially to the unsaved who do not expect any such things.
Stars will fall because they are actually some of the Host of Heaven, so angelic, I figure they will be transformed at the end and come on down with Christ at His return.

Revelation 6:13New King James Version (NKJV)
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Matthew 24:29
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 13:25
the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 21:25
[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations