Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

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christianpessimist

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I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?

Here's some of my evidence to start off:


  • The night sky in the northern hemisphere appears to rotate around polaris. It appears to rotate the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere around the southern cross. This can't happen on the flat earth model.
  • On the flat earth model, someone in Canada and someone in Argentina could potentially be looking at different sides of the moon, but everyone always sees the same side.
  • Gps systems are created with a spherical earth in mind. They wouldn't work otherwise.
  • Ships disappear over the horizon bottom first.
  • This video shows how snipers have to take in to account the rotation of the Earth when shooting.
 

chevyontheriver

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I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?
Spherical, with an easily calculable circumfrence. Moderately deep wells in the Tropics will have the sun directly over head twice a year. Using a mirror signalling system for wells a few miles apart one can observe how many seconds apart true solar noon is from one well observatory to another. From this the circumference can be calibrated. The Greeks could do it and got the distance right.

I'm amazed that flat-earthers are any more than a statistical fluke. But I've run into one even in these forums. How odd is that? Do you know how many hundreds or thousands of them are out there? I hope it's not millions.

There isn't supposed to be a conflict between science and faith, but these guys 'solve' that by saying what does not accord with [their version of] faith is simply wrong, no matter how good the evidence. I remember creationists saying fossils are intended to fool us into thinking the earth has been around for a long long time. It's all just crazy.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?

Here's some of my evidence to start off:


  • The night sky in the northern hemisphere appears to rotate around polaris. It appears to rotate the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere around the southern cross. This can't happen on the flat earth model.
  • On the flat earth model, someone in Canada and someone in Argentina could potentially be looking at different sides of the moon, but everyone always sees the same side.
  • Gps systems are created with a spherical earth in mind. They wouldn't work otherwise.
  • Ships disappear over the horizon bottom first.
  • This video shows how snipers have to take in to account the rotation of the Earth when shooting.
Why not look at the model of the earth described in Genesis 1:1-3 first before jumping into man made models of the earth? In Genesis we are not given the shape of the earth nor any indication that it moves. And similarly we are not even told if the firmament, the sun, moon, or stars move. It is not until Joshua 10:12-14 that we are told that the Sun and Moon are told to stand still. Would not this be an indicator that if something is made to stop that it is currently moving? Now many will argue perspective and appearance of movement of the Sun and Moon since the earth is the one moving: so why did God listen to the request of Joshua by stilling the sun and moon? Why didn't God correct Joshua and tell him to request that the earth stop moving? Furthermore in Proverbs 8:27 we are told that God drew a compass on the face of the deep. Isaiah 40:22 tells us explicitly that the earth is a circle. And from the mouth of God we hear this about by the earth's movement:

"Thus saith the YHWH, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
-Isaiah 66:1

If the heaven is His throne and earth is His footstool: does the throne of a king constantly shift or remain in place? Similarly is a moving footstool any use for one to rest their feet? The answer in either case would be no as God makes it clear that His House of Rest is somewhere which must be immovable. What of the Tabernacle of Testimony which moved about when Moses and Joshua were alive? Does that mean the earth moves? No, it means that God is establishing His claim as the earth being His no matter where man dwells. By nature we observe that the sun and moon travel across the sky in an arching motion: this is no surprise as objects can only conform to the shape of the landscape which they are traversing. Therefore earth is a circle inside either a dome or a sphere. In either case the earth would be flat in the sense that it does not wrap around the spherical or dome shape of the firmament which encompasses it.
 
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John Hyperspace

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While I can't be strictly certain, I would propose the earth is a sphere. My biggest problem (among many) with "flat" is that the sun would never set in such a model. I've heard "explanations" for the setting of the sun, but none of them are reasonable at all.
 
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SeventyOne

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I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?

Here's some of my evidence to start off:


  • The night sky in the northern hemisphere appears to rotate around polaris. It appears to rotate the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere around the southern cross. This can't happen on the flat earth model.
  • On the flat earth model, someone in Canada and someone in Argentina could potentially be looking at different sides of the moon, but everyone always sees the same side.
  • Gps systems are created with a spherical earth in mind. They wouldn't work otherwise.
  • Ships disappear over the horizon bottom first.
  • This video shows how snipers have to take in to account the rotation of the Earth when shooting.


I'm not either at this point. Both methods have their weakness. I've seen experiments with lasers on flat surfaces, such as ice and water, with as many as 7.5 miles between end points, with the purpose of measuring the difference in height necessary for the two points to connect. There should have been about 37 feet of correction for a ball earth, but the correction was zero. I consider that a problem for a round earth.

That said, my main concern about a flat earth is what you brought up in your first point. There are a number of theories out there how that would work on a flat earth, some sound plausible, others not so much.

Concerning the moon, consider two people are looking at the moon, one near the north pole and the other near the south pole. In the ball reality, when viewing the earth, one has their head facing up and the other facing down, opposite from each other. To the guy at the north pole, his perspective shows the 'top' of the moon as the top, and the 'bottom' of the moon as the bottom. Likewise, the guy on the south pole would have his perspective flipped, his 'top' would be the the other guy's bottom.

And ships disappear over the horizon from the bottom up only based on perspective. There is lots of work out there showing ships 'disappearing' over the horizon, then they simply zoom in to enhance their perspective, only to have the ship reappear from the top down. So much for that theory.

Like I said, I'm holding to neither at this point. Both still have their issues in my mind.
 
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christianpessimist

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"Thus saith the YHWH, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"
-Isaiah 66:1

We know that when God says footstool, he doesn't mean he physically props his feet on the Earth. It's clearly a metaphor he's using, in which case it doesn't have to stay still. God is everywhere anyhow.

A flat Earth being surrounded by a globular firmament does not account for why stars in the northern hemisphere look to revolve around Polaris, and stars in the southern hemisphere look to be revolving around the southern cross and in the opposite direction. The only way I could imagine this working is if the firmament was split in to two, or if it was amorphous.
 
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SeventyOne

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We know that when God says footstool, he doesn't mean he physically props his feet on the Earth. It's clearly a metaphor he's using, in which case it doesn't have to stay still. God is everywhere anyhow.

A flat Earth being surrounded by a globular firmament does not account for why stars in the northern hemisphere look to revolve around Polaris, and stars in the southern hemisphere look to be revolving around the southern cross and in the opposite direction. The only way I could imagine this working is if the firmament was split in to two, or if it was amorphous.


You also have to consider a different paradigm when trying to understand it from a flat earth perspective. We've been conditioned to think about stars floating freely around in space billions of miles away. In a flat earth perspective, you have to consider not a free rotation, but their interaction with a curved, and possibly fluid surface.
 
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JackRT

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First, let me say that I am a retired scientist, mathematician and educator and also a Christian of very long standing. A small number of my fellow Christians seem to suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance". This is a form of mental stress caused when your religious beliefs do not correspond with scientific reality. It is very obvious to me that the biblical cosmology (world view) was of a flat earth with a sky dome overhead. This, of course, conflicts with the modern scientific understanding. These Christians feel that letting go of this biblical understanding will be the thin edge of the wedge that could potentially destroy their faith. This is not the case for the majority of Christians who do not take the bible as being either to be literally understood or inerrant.
 
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christianpessimist

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First, let me say that I am a retired scientist, mathematician and educator and also a Christian of very long standing. A small number of my fellow Christians seem to suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance". This is a form of mental stress caused when your religious beliefs do not correspond with scientific reality. It is very obvious to me that the biblical cosmology (world view) was of a flat earth with a sky dome overhead. This, of course, conflicts with the modern scientific understanding. These Christians feel that letting go of this biblical understanding will be the thin edge of the wedge that could potentially destroy their faith. This is not the case for the majority of Christians who do not take the bible as being either to be literally understood or inerrant.

I do believe the word to be infallible. But what I'm saying is that the few times the appearance of the Earth is mentioned in scripture it is unclear. The bible doesn't have to tell us that the sky is blue or that grass is green, because we have been given means to observe these things on our own. And I think that the earth not being flat is demonstrably true.
 
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The flat earth concept is a rapidly growing trend, But it has a key flaw. No, matter the evidence, it all counts on a worldwide international mass conspiracy. From space flight to any trip in an airplane, all the governments of the world would have to agree, and work together for over 100 years to keep this from the public. This means even wile we were fighting WWI and WW2 all the nations were secretly working together. Hitler worked to keep this a secret, Really?

It is just not possible, the scale of the conspiracy alone is mind boggling. The Bible does not state that the world is flat. It states that God made it, but not that He made it flat. What concerns me the most, especially with the passing of M-103 in Canada, is that the Qur'an does clearly state that the world is flat and every Muslim must believe that the world is flat like a plate.

So I must say that the world is spherical
 
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JacksBratt

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I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. And so I was wondering which model people here subscribed to. I'm really interested in creating some discussion about this.

Do you believe the Earth is round or flat? What is your evidence?

Here's some of my evidence to start off:


  • The night sky in the northern hemisphere appears to rotate around polaris. It appears to rotate the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere around the southern cross. This can't happen on the flat earth model.
  • On the flat earth model, someone in Canada and someone in Argentina could potentially be looking at different sides of the moon, but everyone always sees the same side.
  • Gps systems are created with a spherical earth in mind. They wouldn't work otherwise.
  • Ships disappear over the horizon bottom first.
  • This video shows how snipers have to take in to account the rotation of the Earth when shooting.
I am also a believer in the globe earth. However, there are some issues with trying to prove the globe.
With your first point. The sun, no matter where you are, rises in the east and sets in the west. The stars follow the sun, meaning they move in the same direction. This is due to the spinning of the earth.

Now if you lay on the ground with your head toward the north pole, the sun, moon and stars will move from left to right. Counter clockwise. No matter where you are on the globe, if you lay with your head toward the north pole, this will not change.

Lay with your head toward the south pole and now the sun, moon and stars move from right to left. Clockwise. So, this is not really proof of a globe, unfortunately. When we say they rotate differently in the south, it's just because we are oriented upside down compared to the north. So, if the earth was flat, they would always rotate the same direction as we would always orient ourselves facing north.

As for your second point. We always see the same side and this would not change with the flat earth model.

As for GPS systems. Do you have any evidence that they are designed for a globe? The system is not confined to a globe. It would work perfectly if the satellites were orbiting above the flat earth just as well.

The ships disappearing bottom first has been shown to be an illusion. Many people, now, with high zoom cameras have filmed ships going out of site, over the curve, only to zoom in and bring them back into view. This is impossible if they are, in fact, behind a wall of water. They would be impossible to see no matter how strong your zoom lens was.

Something that is very disturbing is the fact that there are numerous places where islands, light houses and other points of interest can be seen with the naked eye, when, in fact, they should be many feet, yards or even close to a mile beyond the curve.

The Coriolis effect on a bullet is kind of a globe killer. Here is why. If a bullet, leaving the muzzle of a gun, becomes affected by the rotation of the earth and drifts to the left, or right, depending on the direction it is fired, why, then, do other things not have the same problem? An airplane leaves the ground and is, just like the bullet, now under the same influence. It is in the air and no longer connected to the ground. The earth is spinning under it. The pilot, therefore, would have to continually steer the plane to counter this problem. In the end, due to the extreme distances the airliners travel, the plane would have a severe drift problem when it came in for its landing.

There is a lot of info on the internet trying to prove that the earth is flat. Yet, if you really look into it, we do not have any observable evidence that it is a globe. No experiment has ever been conducted which shows we are spinning or shaped like a ball. They all show we are motionless and the curve is not there...

If you have something that proves this, the scientific world would be appreciative.

Even the foucault pendulum, which was supposed to prove that the earth rotates, changes it's direction or the rate of it's rotation during an eclipse. This would indicate that it is not the affect of the earth rotating that governs the pendulum. If it was, there would be no reason for a change during an eclipse.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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First, let me say that I am a retired scientist, mathematician and educator and also a Christian of very long standing. A small number of my fellow Christians seem to suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance". This is a form of mental stress caused when your religious beliefs do not correspond with scientific reality. It is very obvious to me that the biblical cosmology (world view) was of a flat earth with a sky dome overhead. This, of course, conflicts with the modern scientific understanding. These Christians feel that letting go of this biblical understanding will be the thin edge of the wedge that could potentially destroy their faith. This is not the case for the majority of Christians who do not take the bible as being either to be literally understood or inerrant.
This would be assuming that modern science is always true. Jesus did not possess the titles you have but, did debate with the modernists of His day who were proven to be wrong because of empty doctrines from their teachers and not the full doctrines from God. Even in the time of Adam and Eve the only scientists around were God, Adam and Eve, and the Serpent: the former would be represent the 'Biblical Worldview' while the latter would represent 'Mordern science': God told man to not eat of the forbidden fruit or they would die: the Serpent comes along with his modern science (Latin for knowledge) and tells Adam and Eve that they won't die: in the end we are told that Adam lived 930 Years and died.
 
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JackRT

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I do believe the word to be infallible. But what I'm saying is that the few times the appearance of the Earth is mentioned in scripture it is unclear. The bible doesn't have to tell us that the sky is blue or that grass is green, because we have been given means to observe these things on our own. And I think that the earth not being flat is demonstrably true.

Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalms 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalms 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalms 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.
 
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JackRT

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Now if you lay on the ground with your head toward the north pole, the sun, moon and stars will move from left to right. Counter clockwise. No matter where you are on the globe, if you lay with your head toward the north pole, this will not change.

Lay with your head toward the south pole and now the sun, moon and stars move from right to left. Clockwise. So, this is not really proof of a globe, unfortunately. When we say they rotate differently in the south, it's just because we are oriented upside down compared to the north. So, if the earth was flat, they would always rotate the same direction as we would always orient ourselves facing north.

You really have not thought this through.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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We know that when God says footstool, he doesn't mean he physically props his feet on the Earth. It's clearly a metaphor he's using, in which case it doesn't have to stay still. God is everywhere anyhow.

A flat Earth being surrounded by a globular firmament does not account for why stars in the northern hemisphere look to revolve around Polaris, and stars in the southern hemisphere look to be revolving around the southern cross and in the opposite direction. The only way I could imagine this working is if the firmament was split in to two, or if it was amorphous.
Remember that figures, types, metaphors, and allegories always point to a literal truth: therefore if God is saying that Heaven is His throne and earth His footstool: He reigns over both and they do not move becuase His Kingdom is on earth as it is in heaven: for a throne is not the whole kingdom but, only part of the kingdom in which the king resides.
 
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chevyontheriver

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You really have not thought this through.
The argument I like best is when they say the earth can't be a sphere because if you pour water on a ball it all runs down and falls off. Perfectly funny proof.
 
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JackRT

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As for GPS systems. Do you have any evidence that they are designed for a globe? The system is not confined to a globe. It would work perfectly if the satellites were orbiting above the flat earth just as well.

How does a satellite orbit over a flat earth? This would violate just about every one of the observable and experimentally verified laws of motion.
 
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JackRT

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Even the foucault pendulum, which was supposed to prove that the earth rotates, changes it's direction or the rate of it's rotation during an eclipse. This would indicate that it is not the affect of the earth rotating that governs the pendulum. If it was, there would be no reason for a change during an eclipse.

You have been misinformed. To be blunt, that translates as "you have been lied to".
 
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chevyontheriver

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How does a satellite orbit over a flat earth? This would violate just about every one of the observable and experimentally verified laws of motion.
You presume the laws of motion are correct. In flat earthism those laws have to be, just have to be all wrong.
 
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