Flat Earth Theory.

[Apple Sky]

Why it is important to believe all of God's words.

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deut. 4:2.)

In this segment, Rob talks about the indisputable fact that - textually speaking, assuming words actually mean things - the Bible speaks of a FIRM, HARD, SOLID structure set up over us known as the FIRMament. Focusing on the Scriptural evidence for this, I then proceed to address a few other aspects of Biblical Cosmology before finally stating why I believe it is important for us to understand these things.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why it is important to believe all of God's words.

I do.
Nowhere has he said that the shape of the earth is important for salvation, how we proclaim the Good News to others or how we live our Christian lives.
"Who do you say that I am?" Mark 8:29 is the most important question that God asks, and will ask, us. Not "what do you believe about the shape of the earth?"

before finally stating why I believe it is important for us to understand these things.

It isn't.

One of these threads, maybe even this one, contained replies from atheists.
Previously, you said that if people believed the "truth" about a flat earth, they would believe the Bible, turn to God and there would be hundreds of converts. Have you asked any atheists if that is true? Have you asked "if you were able to believe that the earth was flat, would that lead you to believe in God and put your faith in Jesus?" Or "is the only thing that's preventing you from believing, and trusting, in God, the shape of the earth?" I am almost certain they would all say "no".
There are many things which prevent people believing in God - suffering, wars, natural disasters, unanswered prayers - maybe they've even been hurt by other Christians and the church. I doubt the shape of the earth would even make the top 50.

For some, it is an interesting, academic discussion; for others, this has nothing to do with faith, salvation, knowing God or how we live our lives as Christians.

 

[Phil G]

Why it is important to believe all of God's words.



In this segment, Rob talks about the indisputable fact that - textually speaking, assuming words actually mean things - the Bible speaks of a FIRM, HARD, SOLID structure set up over us known as the FIRMament. Focusing on the Scriptural evidence for this, I then proceed to address a few other aspects of Biblical Cosmology before finally stating why I believe it is important for us to understand these things.

All of these flat earth videos have one thing in common. They place the shape of the earth as a matter of a person’s sincerity of faith. In other words, if someone believes the earth is a globe, they are sinning against God in the most serious way. They are not believing Him!

Such an idea is absent from Scripture. Nowhere does God even mention the shape of the earth, never mind tell people to believe it is flat or they sin.

That means the earth’s shape is of no consequence as regards sin. What is sin is to remove Jesus from His place as Lord, Messiah and Saviour. When people try to distract from this fact by implying that people only truly believe God when they believe the earth is flat, then they are the ones doing Satan’s work for him.

What these YouTube videos are doing is arguing over interpretation, not belief or faith in what God actually says. The Hebrew word ‘raqia’, translated as ‘firmament’ in some Bible versions, is not as definitive as the English word implies. It can also mean ‘expanse’. I would not be so emphatic about its interpretation when such a possibility exists. That would lead to sin by judging others' sincerity of faith before God.

 

[trophy33]

Why it is important to believe all of God's words.

You are still repeating this error. Bible was neither written nor dictated by God, though.

Human authors shared their cultural ideas and used their own vocabulary and we have no need or necessity to accept those elements literally, when our knowledge of how the world functions is more advanced.

As we think in our brains and not in our kidneys, so also the earth is a globe, not flat.

 

[Apple Sky]

Human authors shared their cultural ideas and used their own vocabulary and we have no need or necessity to accept those elements literally, when our knowledge of how the world functions is more advanced.

So you still do not believe that God told Moses what to write in Genesis ?

 

[Apple Sky]

Such an idea is absent from Scripture. Nowhere does God even mention the shape of the earth,

So why does God place such importance on Genesis 1 ?

 

[Phil G]

So why does God place such importance on Genesis 1 ?

I never said He doesn’t. I said the word translated as ‘firmament’ is not that definitive in the original Hebrew. It can mean something solid, or not solid. And God does not clarify which meaning is correct, or that one particular meaning is consistently the same in the Bible. He does not define its distance from the surface of the earth either. Therefore its definition is not important for His purposes. You cannot base a whole doctrine on a non-definitive word.

My point is a person who believes the earth to be a globe based on scientific evidence cannot, and should not, be accused of disbelieving God.

 

[trophy33]

So you still do not believe that God told Moses what to write in Genesis ?

What do you mean by "still"? Bible was not dictated and this does not change with time. Also, its almost certain Genesis had multiple authors and editors.

 

[Apple Sky]

I never said He doesn’t. I said the word translated as ‘firmament’ is not that definitive in the original Hebrew. It can mean something solid, or not solid.

Well according to the book of Job it is solid.

Can you with him spread out the firmament of the skies, hard as a molten mirror? Job 37:18

 

[Apple Sky]

What do you mean by "still"? Bible was not dictated.

 

[Phil G]

Well according to the book of Job it is solid.

First, the noun 'raqia' is not in the text of Job 37:18. The Hebrew word used is 'shachaq', which can mean clouds, dust or skies, nothing to suggest an inherent solidness. Therefore any Bible version which has the English word 'firmament' in this verse (if there is any) has inserted it where there is no Hebrew word in the original. Again you are looking at an English translation and not the original Hebrew.

Second, this is spoken by Elihu, one of Job's 'friends', and not God. This was Elihu’s perception of the skies. And Elihu was not infallible in what he said.

Third, your stated phrase 'hard as' does not even appear in the text. It says 'strong as', not 'hard as'. The Hebrew word is 'chazaq' and refers to strength, not solidness. Hurricane force winds could be described as 'strong as' a cast metal mirror, yet not be solid.

Flat earthers do not study the Bible. They take words and phrases which appear in translations of the Bible, twist their meanings and insert them where they don't fit and then claim that they are God's own words when they are anything but.

 

[Apple Sky]

Third, your stated phrase 'hard as' does not even appear in the text. It says 'strong as', not 'hard as'. The Hebrew word is 'chazaq' and refers to strength, not solidness. Hurricane force winds could be described as 'strong as' a cast metal mirror, yet not be solid.

My quote for Job 37:18 was from the New American Bible

Can you with him spread out the firmament of the skies, hard as a molten mirror? Job 37:18

 

[Phil G]

My quote for Job 37:18 was from the New American Bible

Then it is wrong. The Hebrew word 'raqia', even if you translate it as 'firmament', does not appear in the original Hebrew. And the Hebrew word translated as 'hard' means 'strong', not hard.

Strong's Hebrew: 2389. חָזָק (chazaq) -- Strong, mighty, firm, powerful

biblehub.com

 

[trophy33]

Then it is wrong. The Hebrew word 'raqia', even if you translate it as 'firmament', does not appear in the original Hebrew. And the Hebrew word translated as 'hard' means 'strong', not hard.

Strong's Hebrew: 2389. חָזָק (chazaq) -- Strong, mighty, firm, powerful

biblehub.com

Regarding the Job 37:18, it is used as "firm, hard", when you scroll a bit lower to dictionary (Strong is just a concordance for the KJV):

e. firm, hard, of face, פנים Ezekiel 3:8, forehead, מֵצַח Ezekiel 3:8; adamant, simile of forehead Ezekiel 3:9 (comparative, with מִן); of sky Job 37:18 (predicate) in plural construct לֵב ׳ח Ezekiel 2:4 hard of heart ("" קְשֵׁי פָנִים) but omitted by B Co, מֵֿצַח׳ח Ezekiel 3:7 hard (= impudent) of forehead ("" קְשֵׁילֵֿב).

 

[Phil G]

Regarding the Job 37:18, it is used as "firm, hard", when you scroll a bit lower to dictionary (Strong is just a concordance for the KJV):

e. firm, hard, of face, פנים Ezekiel 3:8, forehead, מֵצַח Ezekiel 3:8; adamant, simile of forehead Ezekiel 3:9 (comparative, with מִן); of sky Job 37:18 (predicate) in plural construct לֵב ׳ח Ezekiel 2:4 hard of heart ("" קְשֵׁי פָנִים) but omitted by B Co, מֵֿצַח׳ח Ezekiel 3:7 hard (= impudent) of forehead ("" קְשֵׁילֵֿב).

Figuratively hard, not solid. Ezekiel 2:4 and Ezekiel 3:7-9 are in the context of stubbornness. The section you quote is still under the heading of '1 strong:' It is speaking of idioms, not literal solidness.

 

[trophy33]

Figuratively hard, not solid. Ezekiel 2:4 and Ezekiel 3:7-9 are in the context of stubbornness. The section you quote is still under the heading of '1 strong:'

How is the sky figuratively hard?

 

[Phil G]

How is the sky figuratively hard?

It isn't, it's virtually always translated as 'strong' in Job 37:18. It's not often you see 'hard' in a Bible version. And don't forget this is Elihu speaking, not God.

 

[trophy33]

It isn't, it's virtually always translated as 'strong' in Job 37:18. It's not often you see 'hard' in a Bible version.

Its translated as "hard" in the most used English translations - NIV, ESV (except of the KJV), though:

New International Version
can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

English Standard Version
Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

And don't forget this is Elihu speaking, not God.

As far as I am concerned, its all just a text - some human author presenting some scenes with various actors - Job, Elihu, God... I do not see any need to bet that it really happened, or even word for word.

 

[Apple Sky]

Then it is wrong. The Hebrew word 'raqia', even if you translate it as 'firmament', does not appear in the original Hebrew. And the Hebrew word translated as 'hard' means 'strong', not hard.

Strong's Hebrew: 2389. חָזָק (chazaq) -- Strong, mighty, firm, powerful

biblehub.com

God made the earth with a hard dome over it, with waters above it, placing two great lights & all the stars in it that rotate on a daily basis. Simplicity at it's best.

 

[trophy33]

God made the earth with a hard dome over it, with waters above it, placing two great lights & all the stars in it that rotate on a daily basis.

According to some bronze age biblical authors. Not according to God. This is were you still err.