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Featured Five Misconceptions About Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jimmyjimmy, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Common calvinism is unable to explain what is our guilt. They try to built it on some collective guilt principle, but that does not fly.
     
  2. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Our guilt is being found spiritual dead in Adam by God!
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I agree. The 'ordo salutis' the Apostle Paul lays out in Romans chapter 8 is what Reformed theology teaches. Succinctly explained here:

    “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified” (v. 30).

    - Romans 8:29-30
    In theology, we speak of the ordo salutis and the historia salutis. The historia salutis is the history of salvation, and most of the Bible is concerned with it. When we do theology from the perspective of the historia salutis, we consider what Christ our Head has done and what He has been given, and then we consider what we as members of Him participate in. He suffered and was glorified, and in union with Him so have we. He was raised, ascended to heaven, and sits enthroned; in union with Him we have these privileges in essence now, and look forward to their fulness in the world to come. He judges all men, and we in union with Him will also judge the world. This is the way theology is done in terms of the historia salutis.

    The ordo salutis is the order of salvation. This focuses on the acts of God and the response of the individual in salvation. God calls us, produces regeneration in us, so that we respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Behind the divine call is God’s electing decree. The ordo salutis is not concerned with a temporal sequence of events, but with a logical order.

    Paul provides a condensed form of the ordo salutis in Romans 8:29–30. He tells us that God foreknew certain people and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Since God exists in eternity, foreknowledge and predestination are not sequential actions on His part, but logical aspects of His decree. Romans 8:30 says that God called these people to His kingdom, and that those who are called are justified. Since we are justified by faith, we can insert faith between calling and justification. In fact, God’s inward call produces regeneration in us, which causes us to cry out in repentance and faith, so that we are justified.

    There is no time sequence in this, as if we could be called for a while before we are regenerated, and then live regenerated without having repented, and then we could repent but not turn to Christ, and then finally come to justifying faith. No, they are all logical steps in the same event. When God calls us we are immediately regenerated, and we turn from sin to God in one action, which justifies us. And those who are justified are immediately glorified in the sense of being adopted as children of God.

    Ligonier Ministries
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Please explain. I am not familiar with what you speak of.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    And everything as children of wrath we pile on top.
     
  6. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    The only qualm that I have concerning this process is that I do not see a person being regenerated, and then taking a long period of time before receiving Jesus and getting born again, as to me God gives the elect the Gospel, enables them to be able to understand it, and then that sinners places faith in Jesus to save them, happening pretty quickly!
     
  7. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    As I said, a collective guilt. Thats not just.
     
  8. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as we partake of original sin, and then choose to keep piling on from there!
     
  9. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    God thinks that it is though!
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I think the disclaimer of 'time sequence' was in the last paragraph:

    There is no time sequence in this, as if we could be called for a while before we are regenerated, and then live regenerated without having repented, and then we could repent but not turn to Christ, and then finally come to justifying faith. No, they are all logical steps in the same event. When God calls us we are immediately regenerated, and we turn from sin to God in one action, which justifies us. And those who are justified are immediately glorified in the sense of being adopted as children of God.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    To our human sensibilities and decades of post-modern victim class mentality, yes I would agree. Again, this is human.

    In Romans 5, the Apostle Paul goes into minute detail to differentiate the one sin which condemns us all and 'our' sins. In the blue you will see the imputed sin of disobedience. In the green you will see our own sins which also condemn us based on our fallen state. {RLH note...Let's not forget all the good news as we explore what condemns us. The gospel is in these passages as well ;) }

    Romans 5: NASB

    6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

    12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

    18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB)​

    I think if one gets original sin which Paul calls "through the one man's disobedience" right a lot of our doctrinal differences would be solved. This is not Augustine or Calvin. It's the Apostle Paul. The language is clear above.

    What would be great on these threads would be a discussion of the Gospel. Calvinists/Reformed all always having to go back to what condemns us in the first place. Which makes us look like blood thirsty hell hounds pointing the finger at everyone. But if we get original sin wrong and that not only our 'personal' transgressions and sins condemn us but "the one transgression resulting in condemnation of all people" condemns us, then around the merry-go-round we go and go and never get to the more meatier doctrinal issues.

    So this is unjust? If so as lumps of clay we can either thank God for His Amazing Grace or shake our fist at Him. He did not get us in this mess. If you think that we being condemned as a result of the one transgression is unjust what about the Cross?

    Was it just according to your worldview for Jesus to be beaten, whipped, scourged, have thorns planted in his head, spat on, blasphemed, and cruelly have His Hands and feet nailed to a cross and then suffocate to death and then in front of His mother and friends have a spear thrust in His side after He died? Why didn't God just forgive us without all that blood, splatter of flesh and suffering? Please answer that according to your sense of justice. The answer of course is that is exactly what the Father ordained before creation. Figure that one out.

    Does any theology have a full answer as to why God does what He does? No, and in the words of the Apostle Paul, he says:

    Romans 11: NASB

    33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    And St Augustine with the above in mind opined:

    But to the rest who were blinded, as is there plainly declared, it was done in recompense. All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth. But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable. (CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine))​
     
  12. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Among the saved and unsaved, why do some cheat on their spouses while others do not?
    Among the saved and unsaved, why do some lash out angrily while others do not?
    Among the saved and unsaved, why do some lie for personal benefit while others do not?
    Among the saved and unsaved, why are some generous to a fault while others are not?
    Those questions are as unfathomable to us as is why some repent and are saved while others reject that.

    But I cannot believe anybody is born already condemned. That simply is not possible with the God that I know.

    If we truly believe that salvation is not based on merit or works but rather on God's grace, we must admit we do not know the mind of God or all that God is. We will not confine Him within the dictates of any human understanding or interpretation of Scripture but rather will allow God to be God.

    But just as there cannot be an up without a down or an inside without there being an outside, cold without there being heat, I have to believe that there cannot be love without the possibility of hate, there cannot be acceptance without the possibility of rejection.

    You said in Post #453: "It’s completely backwards for a Creator to created being relationship."

    Having a very personal relationship with God, I simply cannot believe that. It is that very personal relationship that allows me to believe that all of us have free will to choose and He does not interfere with that. I believe God is not a God of rules and process and dictates but rather a God who understands the consequences of both good and evil. He loves us and calls on us not to sin not because it is 'against the Law' but because sin harms us and/or others--those of us here and now and/or sometime in the future.

    I will continue to believe that there is true evil in the world but that nobody is unredeemable who does not choose to be. And I do not believe that choice is predestined or foreordained from the time of conception.

    I will continue to believe that it is the purpose and duty of Christians to encourage and support one another, and also to be the channel through which God's love can be seen and better understood by those who most need it.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Mixing two batches here. When we are dead in our sins we are slaves to sin and death (Romans 6). When we are made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2) we become slaves to Christ and His Righteousness (Romans 6 again). In Romans 7 Paul tells us we still have the flesh which wars with the Spirit but before our conversion we don't have the Spirit convicting us of all things. That's the distinction which calls into question the dualism you post above.

    Know from where? Our human sensibility? I address this to another poster here in post #471.

    Yet God does reveal enough for us to understand why His Grace is so unfathomable and beautiful. Romans is a love letter. And even after Paul expounds so painfully in detail still says:

    Romans 11: NASB
    33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    If you are referring to how people are called to God what you posit above seems a bit dualistic. There is a general call of the Gospel to all. Then there is an effectual which is when people actually respond to the Gospel. The parable of the soils is instructive here.

    Matthew 13: NASB
    3And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. 5“Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. 6“But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7“Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. 8“And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9“He who has ears, let him hear.”

    The seed, the Gospel is spread about yet only one type of soil was able to accept it and yield a crop and even within the crop there are some who yield more than others. Is that fair or just to just scatter seek all over the place? Why not just make all the soil able to yield a crop. Why not allow for the good soil to yield equally?

    And notice, Jesus even proclaims "he who has ears, let him hear." Why can't all ears hear equally? How is one to make an informed 'decision' choosing Christ if most of the soils are out of the batters box not able to accept the seed to produce a yield? Why did Jesus say "who has ears, let him hear?" Is that some disadvantage too? Today Jesus would be accused of marginalizing soils other than the good soil. He would be accused of not providing special ears for all to hear. Continuing with Matthew 13:

    10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

    14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
    ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
    YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;


    15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

    In Luke 8 Jesus confirms the above with:

    9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

    This would elicit at least a class action lawsuit according to our human jurisprudence and Jesus would be labeled with just about every Social Justice Warrior (SJW) curse word and made up vocabulary. Twitter bombs would be launched that Jesus's "bigoted policies of only letting some be able to understand and be saved is the very definition of creating marginalized classes."

    That's because you have been redeemed right? You have gone from a son of wrath to a child of God. You were dead but now made alive in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2).

    I invite you back to read Romans 6 where our will what some call free will is under bondage. Either to the master of this world, or to our Master our Lord Jesus Christ. We freely act according to whom or Whom we serve. The Libertarian free will our post-modern culture promotes is from a materialistic secular understanding and not Biblical at all. Some think we can choose Jesus at any time as we would pick up a menu at the Greasy Spoon and order pork chops. This is nowhere taught or even demonstrated in Holy Scriptures.

    He's a God of Justice and is Holy, Holy, Holy. His Law shows His Holiness and Righteousness. This very Law condemns us all. But He is a God of Love and Grace and Justice. He provided the way to be washed clean, forgiven and adopted as His Children. This is the Gospel of Grace in and through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Predestined and foreordained is how God communicates how He will bring His sheep His elect into the fold through the Gospel. It took me years to get off my puny hu-man high horse to humble myself that I was not God's counselor nor critic. He tells us in Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 how we are reconciled with Him.

    Ok, but you are also correct. We do not know who is elect. What we know is that everyone is condemned and needs Jesus as Savior and Lord. What did Jesus command us to do?

    “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)​

    He does not say, take the "Elect Sheep" detector into all cities find them and make them Calvinists. No, we do not know until one responds to His Grace in godly sorrow leading to repentance and salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10). What we actually see in Acts 18 is the Sovereignty of God compared to the work of the Great commission. Notice here Paul was getting beaten and run out of just about every town he preached. In one case left for being stoned to death only to jump up and go back spreading the seed of the Gospel. So he's a bit discouraged and probably thinking he needed a good vacation on the Mediterranean shore. Take a close look at this passage:

    Acts 18: NASB

    5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

    Purple underlined above. God knew who were His but His command was to go on preaching and scattering the seed of the Gospel. Paul did not know until people came forward and were joined to the church among them.

    How else do we know our brothers and sisters in Christ?

    8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” (Romans 10:8-13)

    Indeed and that is taught by Christ and His apostles and with our new nature becomes our joyful mission in life as we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)
     
  14. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Non reformed/Calvinists see it as being totally unfair that God would not save all sinners, but we find it totally due to grace that He chose to save any of us lost sinners Amazing Grace!
     
  15. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    I was once a firm believer in free will gospel, but the Lord used Gospel of John to start waking me up, and then really hammered it home in Romans!
    Then the books started reading on Systematic theology by likes of Calvin/Hodge/Berkhof/Grudem started to really make sense to me!
     
  16. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Original sin it not something everyone agrees with, I realise Augustine pushed it but I don't agree with it. Although it does make a great scapegoat for human nature.
     
  17. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    We are all born with a sin nature, correct?
     
  18. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    I don't believe our nature is tied to anyone action, what I do believe is the story of Adam and Eve was our way of trying to explain why we have a tendency to sin.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It's in your 39 Articles:

    IX. Of Original or Birth-sin

    Original Sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk) but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is ingendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in the Greek, "Phronema Sarkos", which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh, is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized, yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.

    And based on that the next article on Free Will:

    X. Of Free-Will

    The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God: Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

    Articles of Religion | The Church of England

    I gather there is some wiggle room within your church?
     
  20. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    So?

    The 39 articles were written in a time when witches were still being burnt at the stake, Africans were still being taken by force and sold as slaves, Catholic Queens were ordering the killing Protestants and Protestant Queens were ordering the killing of Catholics. As someone who believes the Oxford movement was a breath of fresh air for the Church of England I read the 39 Articles as guidelines and an historical document and definitely not infallible. I am not a fundamentalist and will never be a fundamentalist and I consider myself a thinking Christian and the Bible as the Living word of God that contains all we need for our salvation.
     
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