Five Misconceptions About Calvinism

[redleghunter]

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

The opposite of this is Open Theism, which your Church rejects.

 

[redleghunter]

The point of my post is that because something is taught by someone as biblical truth does not mean it necessarily is biblical truth. Every Christian heresy ever invented started by someone teaching it as biblical truth.

Very good point. I agree. That is why Sola Scriptura is so important. You know the Reformers were accused of making that up too.

 

[redleghunter]

How many millions of people think the Bible says, "money is the root of all evil"? Guess what, they're all still wrong, no matter how many think that. And no one is saying it's just "a product of their wild imagination." It's a product of misreading.

Well the Bible does say:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10 KJV)

Now I do know modern versions make it "an evil" or "causes all sorts of evil" but that does not change the meaning. Unless perhaps you have a Joel Osteen Study Bible which you can share the quote from?

 

[redleghunter]

If before the world began, God alone already determined salvation for man in who would be saved and who would be lost, then evangelism serves no purpose.

To come to this conclusion the hu-man evangelist would have to assume they are God. Here's why:

Acts 18: NASB
9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Bolded blue underlined above. Seems God knew but Paul did not.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Below are 5 common misconceptions about Calvinism. Please post either in either pro or anti arguments on any of these 5 misconceptions. (yes, they are all misconceptions)

1. It kills evangelism

2. It is a man-made doctrine

3. It eliminates free will and human responsibility

4. It promotes “easy believism”

5. It makes God a moral monster

If holding to Calvinism kills evangelism, why is it that some of the greatest soul winners of all time held to it then? Whitefield and Spurgeon come to mind!
The theology of it goes right back into the Bible, especially in the Gospel of John and the letters of Paul
All who have rejected Jesus to save them from their sins will be held accountable, as no will ever get "forced" into hell
Calvinism holds that the true believer will have fruit that shows evidence of a changed life, and that one cannot rely upon just a mere profession of faith one time
Those who are very against it call God terms like" Cosmic rapist/puppet Master" but the truth is that God choosing to save ANY of us lost sinners testifies to His grace and goodness!

 

[redleghunter]

If God decides for you what your eternal destiny (heaven or hell) will be before the world began, then what free will did you have that? None. It was eliminated.

Just proving the misconception.

We do have free will even though such is only mentioned once in the entire New Testament and it is contrasted with God's Will. But I digress. No one will argue in favor of no free will but will argue about the bondage of the hu-man will. Big difference many miss or omit in the discussion. Probably because they don't believe or have misconceptions of what the Apostle says:

Romans 5: NASB
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are all condemned through the one transgression of Adam. Some call it original sin as a theological term. But the fact remains we are all fallen and condemned without Christ. We make our free will choices based on a fallen, sinful condemned state. Explain to me how free this state truly is and the will we exercise in this state for we truly do act and do according to who or Who is our master or Master:

Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Bolded and underlined above...Did God wait for the godless men to decide to arrest, try and execute Jesus for His plan to unfold. No, it was God's predetermined plan and with His foreknowledge. Now answer this...Did those godless men choose to arrest, try and execute Jesus according to their free will/choice? Yes or no?

Seen here as well:

Acts 4: NASB
27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

So we have the same godless men gathered against Jesus doing what godless men would do put in the position they felt their power was being challenged. Yet they being not coerced but freely choosing their master sin and death in no way contradicted that God's Hand and Purpose predestined this to occur. Riddle me that one Batman.

Looks like at least the Apostle Peter was a Compatibilist.

Compatibilism | Monergism

 

[redleghunter]

You can't ignore other passages that state Pharaoh hardened his own heart, though.
Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:32, Exodus 9:34.

Each make their choices according to their nature.

Did God wait for the Sanhedrin and Pilate to arrest, try and execute Jesus or was it God's predestined plan? If God's predestined plan, then did the godless men who arrested, tried and executed Christ act according to their free choosing or were they 'robots?'

Explain the above and you are allowed to ask me any straw man question in the world.

 

[redleghunter]

The one burning question I think for Calvinists to answer is how can a loving God allow people to be born who have no chance for salvation from the moment of conception?

That's a challenge for all Christians who hold to the Biblical and Historical Christian view of the omniscient God.

The only way we have a "chance" at salvation is if God does not know how we will decide. That would be the heresy Open Theism that God does not know or really know.

So the 'fairness' question boomerangs back to the asker: "If God knows we will freely reject Him, why does He let us? Why doesn't he just give us 'more grace?' Or more chances?

Some feel people knowing they were 'given the chance' absolves the All Knowing God of the post-modern "fairness doctrine" which would not make God that "horrible monster."

Frankly, we should stick with Holy Scriptures where God makes it quite clear we in our fallen state don't seek Him nor choose Him.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm really confused as to how my comment was a violation of the rules.

Well you did say that 99% of people you knew who were Calvinist evaded their taxes, beat their family, cheated on their wife etc. But you did say they went to church on Sunday...so there's that!

 

[gordonhooker]

In the way you just ran that down, we would have to conclude the works of the apostle Paul too were "man-made" given NT scholars call his epistles "Pauline."

That is a little bit of a stretch brother but an excellent quick-witted response...
As an avid student of NT studies myself labels like Pauline, Johannine, Lukan, Markan etc... are simply used to identify areas of NT studies. Where Calvinism etc. are theological worldviews.

Personally, I don't agree with the Calvinistic worldview but I respect other Christians rights to have that view.

 

[redleghunter]

Easy. There isn't anyone who "has no chance".

Can you stop dodging it and give an answer?

 

[redleghunter]

Yet God created man with free will and allows man to use that free will.

How's that working out?

And it is God's desire that His creation use his free will to love, serve and obey Him.

How did we get here being dead in sin and condemned children of wrath. Did we leave out a step or two?

 

[JohnB445]

I have been guilty of this myself too, as I was new.

I see Calvinists a lot of times correcting peoples misconceptions rather than having a discussion.

 

[zippy2006]

The opposite of this is Open Theism, which your Church rejects.

As identified two weeks ago, you persist with a false dichotomy.

God is not an efficient-causal created reality... As an analogy, material beings cannot occupy the same space or occupy two discrete spaces at the same time, and yet God is omnipresent.

I would say it's not a question of logic, it's a question of God. Calvinists are wrong because they misunderstand God, not because they misunderstand logic. In the material realm it is true that something cannot be in two places at one time. Not so with God. In the realm of creaturely causality it is true that causes are mutually exclusive. Not so with God.

 

[redleghunter]

As identified two weeks ago, you persist with a false dichotomy.

Thanks for the response Zippy. Is this other option related to String Theory?

 

[Foxfyre]

That's a challenge for all Christians who hold to the Biblical and Historical Christian view of the omniscient God.

The only way we have a "chance" at salvation is if God does not know how we will decide. That would be the heresy Open Theism that God does not know or really know.

So the 'fairness' question boomerangs back to the asker: "If God knows we will freely reject Him, why does He let us? Why doesn't he just give us 'more grace?' Or more chances?

Some feel people knowing they were 'given the chance' absolves the All Knowing God of the post-modern "fairness doctrine" which would not make God that "horrible monster."

Frankly, we should stick with Holy Scriptures where God makes it quite clear we in our fallen state don't seek Him nor choose Him.

I appreciate your kind and thoughtful response, but I can't go with you on that. I am 100% convinced that there is some spark of spirit within all persons that causes them to be curious about, wonder about, and ultimately look for God. Some simply create a god in some image that satisfies them. Others, if they think they can't find Him, insist they can't or don't believe. Some take that so seriously they ridicule or deem inferior or misguided or delusional any of us who do. (Some do that to the point that we have to think 'methink thou dost protest too much.')

But isn't it curious how many agnostics and Atheists are drawn to a message board like this one? Or on any religious themed thread on any message board?

I am convinced, allowing for an exception now and then, that it is ONLY the fallen who find God. The Apostle Paul described it as all have fallen short. Jesus didn't live and die for the sins of the perfect and saved. He lived, suffered, and died for the fallen, all who needed redemption, salvation, and assurance of eternal life. And I believe He died for everybody, not just a few who were not 'fallen'. And I think there is something in all humans that seeks Him.

I also have no problem with those who believe the Calvinist doctrine either and know many good, honorable, and intelligent people who do. But I am one who thinks God isn't all that concerned with our theology unless we misuse it, but rather He cares most about our relationship with Him and each other.

But I love discussing these kinds of things.

 

[redleghunter]

If holding to Calvinism kills evangelism, why is it that some of the greatest soul winners of all time held to it then? Whitefield and Spurgeon come to mind!
The theology of it goes right back into the Bible, especially in the Gospel of John and the letters of Paul
All who have rejected Jesus to save them from their sins will be held accountable, as no will ever get "forced" into hell
Calvinism holds that the true believer will have fruit that shows evidence of a changed life, and that one cannot rely upon just a mere profession of faith one time
Those who are very against it call God terms like" Cosmic rapist/puppet Master" but the truth is that God choosing to save ANY of us lost sinners testifies to His grace and goodness!

Indeed and not mentioned by Reformed often or at all is the promise of the New Covenant in the old has this:

Jeremiah 32: NASB

40“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. 41“I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.

 

[redleghunter]

I am 100% convinced that there is some spark of spirit within all persons that causes them to be curious about, wonder about, and ultimately look for God. Some simply create a god in some image that satisfies them. Others, if they think they can't find Him, insist they can't or don't believe. Some take that so seriously they ridicule or deem inferior or misguided or delusional any of us who do. (Some do that to the point that we have to think 'methink thou dost protest too much.')

I believe what you outline above is what’s called common grace and not Prevenient Grace.

However, if this is how you consider some do and some do not come to Christ “choosing” Him it is very erratic and uneven. The spark you speak of is not even close to equal and would be making God capricious. Where’s the Justice or fairness in that.

But isn't it curious how many agnostics and Atheists are drawn to a message board like this one? Or on any religious themed thread on any message board?

I would love to psychoanalyze this but mostly they come here to troll.

I am convinced, allowing for an exception now and then, that it is ONLY the fallen who find God. The Apostle Paul described it as all have fallen short. Jesus didn't live and die for the sins of the perfect and saved. He lived, suffered, and died for the fallen, all who needed redemption, salvation, and assurance of eternal life. And I believe He died for everybody, not just a few who were not 'fallen'. And I think there is something in all humans that seeks Him.

We are all fallen. That is a fact. We all need Jesus.

I understand where you are coming from on where Christ died for all. It’s a general title of Savior of the world and many, not you, take it to the level of Universal salvation where all will be in the Kingdom of God. But we know not all will accept Christ. The Scriptures show is this.

We do know from the words of Jesus that everyone the Father gives Christ He will lose none and raise them up on the last day. That of course is truth from His own lips. He also said He lays His life down for the sheep. In the same chapter of John 10 He clearly tells some opposing Him they are not His sheep. And that the Father gives Christ the sheep and they will not perish.

So we are all condemned sinners by nature (Romans 3 Romans 4 and Romans 5) and Christ reconciles us by His shed blood.

I also have no problem with those who believe the Calvinist doctrine either and know many good, honorable, and intelligent people who do. But I am one who thinks God isn't all that concerned with our theology unless we misuse it, but rather He cares most about our relationship with Him and each other.

I agree. I get grief with some of my brothers and sisters when I say I am a Biblicist first. I adopted that from Charles Spurgeon who was one of the most devoted evangelists and also of Reformed theology. But all Reformed will admit they hold to the 5 Solas for doctrine. Sola Scriptura as the Reformers taught compels us to test all doctrines with the infallible Word of God.

That is why I am Reformed, because it is based on Biblical truth and addresses all the doctrines of Holy Scriptures systematically. Meaning taking the full revelation of God in Scriptures into account.

But I love discussing these kinds of things.

Me too.

 

[redleghunter]

I understand that particular doctrine. But that is what begs the question.

Why weren't everybody predestined before the creation of the world? Why create souls who would not be so blessed?

Does not seem “fair” to our human sensibilities and finite minds. Especially in the West where in post modern society we group people into victim classes.

Paul said this in Romans 11:

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (NASB)

St Augustine said something similar:

All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth. But His ways are unsearchable. Therefore the mercy by which He freely delivers, and the truth by which He righteously judges, are equally unsearchable. (CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine))

 

[redleghunter]

Nobody becomes a sheep. There's nowhere in scripture where that's supported. There are some sheep, however, that Jesus still needs to bring into the fold. He doesn't say there are goats that need transforming.

Good point I believe Ephesians 1 addressed this:

Ephesians 1: NASB

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.