Five Misconceptions About Calvinism

[redleghunter]

Why didn't you quote John?

1 John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Verse 3 is sheep.

Verse 4 goat.

 

[Hammster]

Good point I believe Ephesians 1 addressed this:

Ephesians 1: NASB

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Sticking with Ephesians, in chapter 2 he says

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

There’s nothing different about our nature and those who will suffer eternal torment.

Verse 4, though, says this

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, - Ephesians 2:4

He shows mercy because of His love. He saves us. Even when we were dead, He made us alive. It’s all about Him.

 

[redleghunter]

Sticking with Ephesians, in chapter 2 he says

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3

There’s nothing different about our nature and those who will suffer eternal torment.

Verse 4, though, says this

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, - Ephesians 2:4

He shows mercy because of His love. He saves us. Even when we were dead, He made us alive. It’s all about Him.

Amen. I have found that the more I read and study the Bible cover to cover each year the more I am reminded God created everything which was a love letter in itself. We are His creation and He has put up with a lot of our disobedience. He is under no obligation to save any of us but in His Love sends the Divine Logos His Beloved Son in Whom He is well pleased to save us.

Pretty amazing, unfathomable my mouth is stopped up.

 

[redleghunter]

This verse does not say that Jesus calls His sheep to the sheep pen.

This verse says that the SHEEP (already saved) know His voice.

So I'm not sure how you think that verse is about calling anything because it is about those who are already sheep.

Take in the entire dialogue in John 10 and we see the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. That’s the sheepish effectual call. But not stopping there Jesus says the Father gives Him the sheep.

 

[redleghunter]

Why would Christ not let them enter if they want to enter by Him (Christ) who is the gate?

The folks trying to climb in are false shepherds. The context tells us this:

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. (NASB)

Continuing this is still about the true shepherd and the imposters. Jesus as the Shepherd is delivering His sheep from the false shepherds (Sanhedrin sear of Moses aka the Magisterium). He is leading the sheep out to pasture:

3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.(NASB)

So these verses have nothing to do with becoming a sheep. The sheep are already there and being poorly led by imposters. Jesus is severely rebuking the Jewish leaders of being false shepherds.

 

[redleghunter]

If man is a free agent, his nature is not to ALWAYS sin. Total depravity is Calvinism.

Actually Total depravity is original sin. Augustine believed it and so does your church.

 

[redleghunter]

BUT but but Calvinists say there is nothing upon which God varies his decision regarding his predestination.

You mean in human terms?

 

[redleghunter]

Don't forget that part of the "monster" charge is that God creates people for no other ultimate purpose other than damnation.

Regardless of theology we know some will reject Christ and be goats on Judgement day.

Let me ask. Since you are Roman Catholic, you believe God is omniscient.

If your approach is correct and we all have an equal fair shot at salvation by us choosing God, being omniscient He knows some of many will reject Him.

Therefore God allowed people to be born and live knowing they would reject Him. How’s that fair? The monster motif still holds. You and others just absolve your own conscience by believing they had a fair chance to choose. You think you are doing God a favor by making Him less a tyrant and appeasing your post modern sensibilities of fairness and concept of love.

But you are back at square one because everyone can see through the human window dressing. Not to mention the free will peddled is not Biblical.

 

[redleghunter]

In my system, if a judge decides a person is guilty before hearing the case, he is unjust. In the case of the Calvinistic god, it is a thousand times more egregious because this god is actually bringing these damned souls into existence. Why would any god create a soul just to do nothing but send them to hell? It is the very definition of sadistic.

And why would anyone worship such a god? This soooo disturbs me.

I thought Universalist Reconciliation was condemned by the Catholic Church.

 

[redleghunter]

Part of justice is treating everyone with the same even hand.

Judas did not get that memo.

You don't give someone preferential treatment.

The other 11 disciples benefited from “preferential treatment” even though they cut and ran on their Rabbi and one even denied Him three times. Why were they preserved to be restored and Judas not?

And when I am in charge of groups of any sort, whether they are my third grade class or my men's group therapy, the rule is if you bring anything special, you can't bring it for just some, you have to bring it for everyone.

The uncreated Creator God is not a third grade teacher or therapist.

And yet we are back to the same problem set. God is omniscient, meaning He knows all things before they happen.

So He knows before anyone is conceived in the womb that they will either accept or reject Christ Jesus. Yet according to your view He allows some or many to reject His Son and thereby are condemned to eternal punishment.

In your model why doesn’t God intervene so all are saved. Would that not be the loving parent you portrayed above. I mean you would not let your children to play in traffic in the first place.

Therefore in your model Universalist Reconciliation is the only “just” move for God.

Or as some theologians try to promote these days, Open Theism that God really does not know ahead of time what we do and He is still learning.

We know of course Universalist Reconciliation is heresy and that Open Theism is as well. Take your pick to appease the human sensibilities of “justice.”

 

[Foxfyre]

I thought Universalist Reconciliation was condemned by the Catholic Church.

I don't think Open Heart was advocating Universalist Reconciliation. What I heard advocated was that God loves all the souls he brings into the world and does not will that any should perish. Therefore we each are given our figurative 'day in court'--that is a REALLY open ended metaphor --and all can choose whether to love God or not, to accept the salvation offered by the Christ or reject it. I don't presume to know what, if any, provisions are made for unbelievers or what opportunities they may have, but that is between them and God.

I am 100% convinced that God does not force me to love and obey Him. If He did, he would do a much better job of it than I do for sure. I do pray that He will continue to help me get better at it though.

 

[redleghunter]

God IS creator. Why are we doing a hypothetical god who is not creator? The whole point of my argument is to show where Calvinist assumptions lead.

Reformed assumptions lead to Biblical teachings. Augustine had no issues with predestination because he proved it from the Scriptures.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't think Open Heart was advocating Universalist Reconciliation. What I heard advocated was that God loves all the souls he brings into the world and does not will that any should perish. Therefore we each are given our figurative 'day in court'--that is a REALLY open ended metaphor --and all can choose whether to love God or not, to accept the salvation offered by the Christ or reject it. I don't presume to know what, if any, provisions are made for unbelievers or what opportunities they may have, but that is between them and God.

I am 100% convinced that God does not force me to love and obey Him. If He did, he would do a much better job of it than I do for sure. I do pray that He will continue to help me get better at it though.

No God does not force us and I am at odds to see where even Calvin taught that. People equate predestination, which the Apostle Paul teaches, with forced kicking and screaming conversion. It’s not.

The bondage of the will in Romans 6 shows us we are either in bondage to sin leading to death or in bondage to God’s righteousness.

The day in court idea still does not fit as by her model we are the judge. We get to choose. It puts God in the position to accept whatever decision we come up with based on what influences our will. It’s completely backwards for a Creator to created being relationship.

But even if her model is correct, then God already knows what we will choose and yet still allowed us to come into being knowing some would perish. Where’s the Justice and Love there following the same rationale?

 

[redleghunter]

No. I believe in free will. I believe that some hate authority and literally choose hell rather than be under God's thumb. But there is no real litmus test to know who is going to hell.

Why do some exercise a free will of disobedience and some obedience to God’s call to Salvation in Jesus Christ?

This is what I’m getting at...if we hu-mans are determinative by our free will to obtain a Salvation provided by God, then what makes one person accept that Gospel message and repent and be saved and another reject it? Meaning are there some free wills more equal than others?

 

[redleghunter]

That didn't answer the question.

In your system, does He have to create those He knows He'll send to hell?

I'm not going to answer a non sequitur.

It’s not a non sequitur as God is omniscient and knows who will reject Him.

 

[redleghunter]

Of course it's a serious question. What have they done to deserve to be loved less than those who are saved? There should be some criteria. If it's random, it's unjust. It is shocking to me that Calvinists don't understand this obvious point.

We do understand this obvious point. We call it God’s Sovereign will and purpose which the NT speaks of often and only mentions human free will once in John 1 and not favorably.

 

[redleghunter]

You are not being honest. Calvinism teaches that there is no free will.

No Reformed theology teaches what the Bible teaches. We have a will and we make choices based on this will. It is free in the context of what we are in bondage to. Romans 6 makes this clear. Our will is either in bondage to sin leading to death or we are in bondage to God’s righteousness. The former is a will in bondage to the flesh and the latter to Christ.

Reformed believe, as the Apostle Peter did, that when Christ was arrested, tried and executed that such was the predestined plan of God. We also believe the Sanhedrin and Pilate acted with no coercion according to their will.

See Acts of the Apostles 2:22-24 and Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28

 

[redleghunter]

By good I mean obey God and seek God. Calvinism teaches that man cannot seek God on his own, without grace.

Calvin wasn’t the first. St Paul was.

Romans 3: NASB

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVEBECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING ANDBITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

 

[YeshuaFan]

I believe what you outline above is what’s called common grace and not Prevenient Grace.

However, if this is how you consider some do and some do not come to Christ “choosing” Him it is very erratic and uneven. The spark you speak of is not even close to equal and would be making God capricious. Where’s the Justice or fairness in that.



I would love to psychoanalyze this but mostly they come here to troll.


We are all fallen. That is a fact. We all need Jesus.

I understand where you are coming from on where Christ died for all. It’s a general title of Savior of the world and many, not you, take it to the level of Universal salvation where all will be in the Kingdom of God. But we know not all will accept Christ. The Scriptures show is this.

We do know from the words of Jesus that everyone the Father gives Christ He will lose none and raise them up on the last day. That of course is truth from His own lips. He also said He lays His life down for the sheep. In the same chapter of John 10 He clearly tells some opposing Him they are not His sheep. And that the Father gives Christ the sheep and they will not perish.

So we are all condemned sinners by nature (Romans 3 Romans 4 and Romans 5) and Christ reconciles us by His shed blood.


I agree. I get grief with some of my brothers and sisters when I say I am a Biblicist first. I adopted that from Charles Spurgeon who was one of the most devoted evangelists and also of Reformed theology. But all Reformed will admit they hold to the 5 Solas for doctrine. Sola Scriptura as the Reformers taught compels us to test all doctrines with the infallible Word of God.

That is why I am Reformed, because it is based on Biblical truth and addresses all the doctrines of Holy Scriptures systematically. Meaning taking the full revelation of God in Scriptures into account.


Me too.

I am a Reformed Baptist, and Calvinism seems to understand the actual process of salvation of God much better than any other system of theology...

 

[YeshuaFan]

No Reformed theology teaches what the Bible teaches. We have a will and we make choices based on this will. It is free in the context of what we are in bondage to. Romans 6 makes this clear. Our will is either in bondage to sin leading to death or we are in bondage to God’s righteousness. The former is a will in bondage to the flesh and the latter to Christ.

Reformed believe, as the Apostle Peter did, that when Christ was arrested, tried and executed that such was the predestined plan of God. We also believe the Sanhedrin and Pilate acted with no coercion according to their will.

See Acts of the Apostles 2:22-24 and Acts of the Apostles 4:27-28

We are free to choose, but due to having sin natures, we are now limited in our available options to choose from!