Finneyism

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Frankly it was God’s Grace and Mercy.

He sent Nathan to David confronting him with his sin and David convicted of his sin confessed and repented. Psalm 51 is his prayer of repentance.

Do you think as children of God when we sin that God in His Mercy and Grace confronts by the Holy Spirit?

No.

 

[redleghunter]

No.

No to what?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No to what?

I only saw one question. Was there more ?

 

[redleghunter]

I only saw one question. Was there more ?

Your position is that the Holy Spirit does not convict us of sin?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Your position is that the Holy Spirit does not convict us of sin?

No.

 

[redleghunter]

No.

Is it your point that as children of God we are in a state of sinless perfection?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is it your point that as children of God we are in a state of sinless perfection?

No.

 

[redleghunter]

No.

Well thank you for the intense exchange.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Do you think Finney is right when he said:

the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."

Without repentance, what do you think?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Why were not David and Bathsheba stoned to death?

Death still happened to their child.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Too many divisions.... technically, the Reformation should have / could have left us with only a handful of movements / churches / bodies. Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, and Mennonites. That could have been it, four major branches, undivided from within, and essentially as they were theologically and practically in the 1500's. But what we have are thousands of sub-denominations. That is too much division.

Those who break from where they started and create more division, especially as leaders / preachers / authors will have, I believe, more to give an account of.

 

[redleghunter]

Without repentance, what do you think?

The point was the loss of Justification. Of course we are called to repent.

The second point being Finney puts Christians on the same footing with unbelievers.

Which means

Too many divisions.... technically, the Reformation should have / could have left us with only a handful of movements / churches / bodies. Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, and Mennonites. That could have been it, four major branches, undivided from within, and essentially as they were theologically and practically in the 1500's. But what we have are thousands of sub-denominations. That is too much division.

Those who break from where they started and create more division, especially as leaders / preachers / authors will have, I believe, more to give an account of.

I believe the measuring rod will be God’s Truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well thank you for the intense exchange.

I send you a url/link shortly, explains a lot about "conviction". It is private(sort of) blog of someone else, why I don't put in open forum ..... is long blog, and not all correct....

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No.

If not the Holy Spirit who? Who can harden or soften hearts? Who is greater than our hearts? Seems to me, without conviction from the Holy Spirit, while there remains duty, the heart is apathetic and deceitful above all things who can understand it? Going through the dutiful motions without conviction, is like singing "Amazing Grace" at a funeral of an unrepentant sinner for the ten thousandth time. The heart is not in it, and while those around may hear a beautiful voice, God knows the heart. Sorry brother Jeff, forgive my ignorance in not understanding your response, or how you came to that conclusion, as it makes no sense to me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If not the Holy Spirit who? Who can harden or soften hearts? Who is greater than our hearts? Seems to me, without conviction from the Holy Spirit, while there remains duty, the heart is apathetic and deceitful above all things who can understand it? Going through the dutiful motions without conviction, is like singing "Amazing Grace" at a funeral of an unrepentant sinner for the ten thousandth time. The heart is not in it, and while those around may hear a beautiful voice, God knows the heart. Sorry brother Jeff, forgive my ignorance in not understanding your response, or how you came to that conclusion, as it makes no sense to me.

I'll send you the same link/ url I sent redleghunter if you want.
It is a very long one, and not altogether do I agree with it,
but the different facets and ways of seeing conviction (or lack of) provide a big picture
of this from the Bible - not like a short pick-a-verse answer could do.
Conviction is so lacking today, and not allowed many places, this is awkward here. (on the forum/ internet anywhere) ...

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I'll send you the same link/ url I sent redleghunter if you want. It is a very long one, and not altogether do I agree with it,
but the different facets and ways of seeing conviction (or lack of) provide a big picture
of this from the Bible - not like a short pick-a-verse answer could do.
Conviction is so lacking today, and not allowed many places, this is awkward here. (on the forum/ internet anywhere) ...

Sure brother, drop me a message, I'll have a look see.

 

[FireDragon76]

My take from reading the quote from Finney was one sin and one is no longer Justified.

Which to me shows his view is our Justification is not based on the Work of Christ but our own.

Finney's theology is a departure from Protestant orthodoxy altogether, but it's easy to place it within the wider Holiness movement. His emphasis on free will conversion is also prototypically American.

 

[Dave L]

I think the gate the Reformers let open to make "Finnyism" possible was in the "free offer of the Gospel" doctrine. Which turns the gospel into law. So those who accept the terms when offered save themselves by obedience. Scripture however "preaches" the gospel saying all who believe have eternal life. So preaching is an announcement to all who believe about their good fortune. And not an offer for the self-righteous to use as a law for saving themselves.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think the gate the Reformers let open to make "Finnyism" possible was in the "free offer of the Gospel" doctrine. Which turns the gospel into law. So those who accept the terms when offered save themselves by obedience. Scripture however "preaches" the gospel saying all who believe have eternal life. So preaching is an announcement to all who believe about their good fortune. And not an offer for the self-righteous to use as a law for saving themselves.

No, it is the Holy Spirit that causes us to be obedient. All we are required to do is not quench Him. Those who are not obedient do not have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

 

[Tree of Life]

We can start there. What do you think? Is he right and can we find Scriptural support for his statements? Is he wrong? If so where is Finney refuted from the Scriptures?

Finney and his ilk share the same basic soteriology with Roman Catholics who believe that mortal sin results in a fall from grace and a loss of justification. In the Roman Catholic system, there is a way to be restored to grace - confession, penance, and absolution. I wonder what system Finney thought up to restore a backslidden Christian to a state of grace.

Both Roman Catholicism and Finneyism are unbiblical on this account. A person is declared righteous by God not on the basis of their obedience or even the quality of their faith. Rather, God's declaration of righteousness is based on the righteousness of Christ imputed to the believer. Only Jesus' perfect righteousness can stand the scrutiny of God's judgment. Justification, therefore, is not something that can be lost once a sinner has it because it's based on a righteousness that was never theirs to begin with.