Finneyism

[redleghunter]

Background:

Charles Finney (1792-1875) ministered in the wake of the "Second Awakening," as it has been called. A Presbyterian layover, Finney one day experienced "a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost" which "like a wave of electricity going through and through me ... seemed to come in waves of liquid love." The next morning, he informed his first client of the day, "I have a retainer from the Lord Jesus Christ to plead his cause and I cannot plead yours. "Refusing to attend Princeton Seminary (or any seminary, for that matter). Finney began conducting revivals in upstate New York. One of his most popular sermons was "Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts."

Finney’s one question for any given teaching was, "Is it fit to convert sinners with?" One result of Finney’s revivalism was the division of Presbyterians in Philadelphia and New York into Arminian and Calvinistic factions. His "New Measures" included the "anxious bench" (precursor to today’s altar call), emotional tactics that led to fainting and weeping, and other "excitements," as Finney and his followers called them.​

First, in answer to the question, "Does a Christian cease to be a Christian, whenever he commits a sin?", Finney answers:

"Whenever he sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... If it be said that the precept is still binding upon him, but that with respect to the Christian, the penalty is forever set aside, or abrogated, I reply, that to abrogate the penalty is to repeal the precept, for a precept without penalty is no law. It is only counsel or advice. The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ... In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."​

We can start there. What do you think? Is he right and can we find Scriptural support for his statements? Is he wrong? If so where is Finney refuted from the Scriptures?

 

[jax5434]

I would disagree to the extent that the saved Christian has access to God's grace whereas the unsaved sinner does not.

God Bless
Jax

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I would disagree to the extent that the saved Christian has access to God's grace whereas the unsaved sinner does not.

God Bless
Jax

In and through all Jesus teaching and life and practice , as in "TURN to YAHWEH, for HIS KINGDOM is at hand"

unsaved sinners TURNED to YAHWEH.... by faith through grace....
There WERE NO saved sinners when Jesus first preached to them !

 

[1stcenturylady]

Background:

Charles Finney (1792-1875) ministered in the wake of the "Second Awakening," as it has been called. A Presbyterian layover, Finney one day experienced "a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost" which "like a wave of electricity going through and through me ... seemed to come in waves of liquid love." The next morning, he informed his first client of the day, "I have a retainer from the Lord Jesus Christ to plead his cause and I cannot plead yours. "Refusing to attend Princeton Seminary (or any seminary, for that matter). Finney began conducting revivals in upstate New York. One of his most popular sermons was "Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts."

Finney’s one question for any given teaching was, "Is it fit to convert sinners with?" One result of Finney’s revivalism was the division of Presbyterians in Philadelphia and New York into Arminian and Calvinistic factions. His "New Measures" included the "anxious bench" (precursor to today’s altar call), emotional tactics that led to fainting and weeping, and other "excitements," as Finney and his followers called them.​

First, in answer to the question, "Does a Christian cease to be a Christian, whenever he commits a sin?", Finney answers:

"Whenever he sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... If it be said that the precept is still binding upon him, but that with respect to the Christian, the penalty is forever set aside, or abrogated, I reply, that to abrogate the penalty is to repeal the precept, for a precept without penalty is no law. It is only counsel or advice. The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ... In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."​

We can start there. What do you think? Is he right and can we find Scriptural support for his statements? Is he wrong? If so where is Finney refuted from the Scriptures?

I agree with Finney. Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

 

[Messerve]

I agree with Finney. Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Yet, every Christian has sinned after his or her salvation, I'm sure. At least, I know I have... I will say that the vast majority of the time I don't even have Jesus in mind when I sin, and I'm not intentionally taking his work on the cross lightly.

I took a class on Hebrews and after a semester of deliberation over that passage we came to the conclusion that the people being referred to were not even true Christians to begin with, but simply considered themselves Christians and worshiped with real Christians regularly. However, they had never truly given their life to Christ and therefore were able to sin against Him as if it was nothing.

 

[Messerve]

Aside from that, I read Charles Finney's autobiography as a teenager and I was deeply impacted by it. I think the things that really stuck with me was when he described how he used to be ashamed to be caught reading the Bible and would close the door to his room when reading. If someone happened to walk in, he would quickly throw his Bible under some papers so the person wouldn't know. But eventually, he realized that he was acting in pride and there was no reason to be ashamed of being found reading the Bible!

I had been doing the exact same thing, reading the Bible in my bedroom privately and then quickly throwing it aside if one of my siblings walked into the room. I felt silly like I was trying to be some super-spiritual person, because none of my siblings read the Bible outside of church, that I was aware of. But finney's book opened my eyes to the pride I had, and that in turn led me as far as singing a song, I'd composed, in church!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I took a class on Hebrews and after a semester of deliberation over that passage we came to the conclusion that the people being referred to were not even true Christians to begin with, but simply considered themselves Christians and worshiped with real Christians regularly. However, they had never truly given their life to Christ and therefore were able to sin against Him as if it was nothing.

What Hebrews are you talking about ?

The Book of Hebrews doesn't even deal with the church!

 

[Messerve]

What Hebrews are you talking about ?

The Book of Hebrews doesn't even deal with the church!

Church with a capital C? It certainly addresses Believers... I never used the word "church" in my post, either.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yet, every Christian has sinned after his or her salvation, I'm sure. At least, I know I have... I will say that the vast majority of the time I don't even have Jesus in mind when I sin, and I'm not intentionally taking his work on the cross lightly.

I took a class on Hebrews and after a semester of deliberation over that passage we came to the conclusion that the people being referred to were not even true Christians to begin with, but simply considered themselves Christians and worshiped with real Christians regularly. However, they had never truly given their life to Christ and therefore were able to sin against Him as if it was nothing.

It is willful sin that a Christian cannot do. 1 John 3:9. They have no desire to willfully sin. But there are trespasses that all of us do that are unintentional sin. Leviticus 5:15. Numbers 15:22-36 shows that there was a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I took a class on Hebrews and after a semester of deliberation over that passage we came to the conclusion that the people being referred to were not even true Christians to begin with,

Do you know what kind of 'Christians' ?(it was not the church nor the Church, not gentiles at all) What "Hebrews" are you referring to ? The book in the Bible, or elsewhere ?

Hebrews , like the Apocalypse, does not refer to "Christians" , "christians", nor the church nor the Church. It was written to and about Ekklesia, a totally separate meaning from 'Christian today, not meaning 'church' either as used today.

 

[Messerve]

It is willful sin that a Christian cannot do. 1 John 3:9. They have no desire to willfully sin. But there are trespasses that all of us do that are unintentional sin. Leviticus 5:15. Numbers 15:22-36 shows that there was a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sin.

Yes I agree with those verses.

It seems like there are kind of three types of sin... 1: Unintentionally/unconsciously sinning 2. Knowingly, but not willfully sinning 3. Knowingly and willfully sinning

I think the first two are definitely forgivable while the third is something that shoulddn't even really be possible for a Believer - to knowingly have caused Jesus' death and do it willfully.

 

[Messerve]

Do you know what kind of 'Christians' ?(it was not the church nor the Church, not gentiles at all) What "Hebrews" are you referring to ? The book in the Bible, or elsewhere ?

Hebrews , like the Apocalypse, does not refer to "Christians" , "christians", nor the church nor the Church. It was written to and about Ekklesia, a totally separate meaning from 'Christian today, not meaning 'church' either as used today.

Sorry, I should have used "believers" or "followers of Jesus" instead of the term "Christians".

Are you thinking I was saying that the Hebrews were not saved actually? That was not at all what I was saying. I was referring to people who knowingly and willfully sin, yet considered themselves saved and worship with people who actually are.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree with Finney. Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
.

2 Peter 2:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Do you think Finney is right when he said:

the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I took a class on
Hebrews

What
Hebrews are you referring to ? The book in the Bible, or elsewhere ?

 

[redleghunter]

Yet, every Christian has sinned after his or her salvation, I'm sure. At least, I know I have... I will say that the vast majority of the time I don't even have Jesus in mind when I sin, and I'm not intentionally taking his work on the cross lightly.

I took a class on Hebrews and after a semester of deliberation over that passage we came to the conclusion that the people being referred to were not even true Christians to begin with, but simply considered themselves Christians and worshiped with real Christians regularly. However, they had never truly given their life to Christ and therefore were able to sin against Him as if it was nothing.

My take from reading the quote from Finney was one sin and one is no longer Justified.

Which to me shows his view is our Justification is not based on the Work of Christ but our own.

 

[redleghunter]

Aside from that, I read Charles Finney's autobiography as a teenager and I was deeply impacted by it. I think the things that really stuck with me was when he described how he used to be ashamed to be caught reading the Bible and would close the door to his room when reading. If someone happened to walk in, he would quickly throw his Bible under some papers so the person wouldn't know. But eventually, he realized that he was acting in pride and there was no reason to be ashamed of being found reading the Bible!

I had been doing the exact same thing, reading the Bible in my bedroom privately and then quickly throwing it aside if one of my siblings walked into the room. I felt silly like I was trying to be some super-spiritual person, because none of my siblings read the Bible outside of church, that I was aware of. But finney's book opened my eyes to the pride I had, and that in turn led me as far as singing a song, I'd composed, in church!

Thanks for sharing I did not know that fact about Finney.

 

[redleghunter]

It is willful sin that a Christian cannot do. 1 John 3:9. They have no desire to willfully sin. But there are trespasses that all of us do that are unintentional sin. Leviticus 5:15. Numbers 15:22-36 shows that there was a sacrifice for unintentional sin, but no sacrifice for willful sin.

Why were not David and Bathsheba stoned to death?

 

[redleghunter]

He’s speaking of Hebrews 6 which @1stcenturylady quoted.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why were not David and Bathsheba stoned to death?

Then the MESSIANIC LINE would have been broken , and JESUS never born.

For one.

TWO: why - Yahweh required PERFECT JUSTICE, and DECLARED HIS JUDGMENT.
He did not say to stone them, and HE IS THE JUDGE< PERFECT JUDGEMENT >

 

[redleghunter]

Then the MESSIANIC LINE would have been broken , and JESUS never born.

For one.

TWO: why - Yahweh required PERFECT JUSTICE, and DECLARED HIS JUDGMENT.
He did not say to stone them, and HE IS THE JUDGE< PERFECT JUDGEMENT >

Frankly it was God’s Grace and Mercy.

He sent Nathan to David confronting him with his sin and David convicted of his sin confessed and repented. Psalm 51 is his prayer of repentance.

Do you think as children of God when we sin that God in His Mercy and Grace confronts by the Holy Spirit?