finite punishment for finite sin

[Tree of Life]

That is what happens daily throughout history. They do live on and continue their evil. Is it God that continues "to allow him to live on his good world among his people?"

Yes. God, in his patience, wisdom, and mercy allows the wicked to persist for a time. But he will ultimately call them to account. But if you deny hell then you seem to suggest that God ought to allow them to persist forever. No?

 

[JackRT]

Yes. God, in his patience, wisdom, and mercy allows the wicked to persist for a time. But he will ultimately call them to account. But if you deny hell then you seem to suggest that God ought to allow them to persist forever. No?

I believe in God's justice but I believe even more strongly in God's compassion. We can only speculate about what happens after death, if anything at all.

 

[Tree of Life]

I believe in God's justice nut I believe even more strongly in God's compassion. We can only speculate about what happens after death, if anything at all.

So it sounds like you don't take a position on the eschaton?

 

[smithed64]

Yes, that was the opinion of John of Patmos. I was speaking of the original meaning and intent of Hebrew scripture. You are aware, aren't you, that Job is a fictional allegorical story created to teach a lesson?

Keep it separate to make it a bit easier.

What John was shown by Christ....not an opinon.

I understand what you meant about the Hebrew scripture...grant it...I'm still learning a bit more about the Hebrew language and how it is interpreted. So may have missed some things.
I understand about the scripture you showed about the King...I believe it was Cyrus? correct me if I'm wrong please.

But The OT does speak of Hell, just not the word. The use Sheol as you know already and I've shown earlier. It's meaning put in context is quite effective for getting the message across.

Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted ; and he said , For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Speaking of the grave. Obviously.

Psalms 86:13 For you will extend your great loyal love to me,and will deliver my life from the depths of Sheol.

Speaking of Hell.

Again, not a Hebraic scholar, but don't need to be really. But it's pretty plain. Hell is real.

 

[Tree of Life]

But The OT does speak of Hell, just not the word. The use Sheol as you know already and I've shown earlier. It's meaning put in context is quite effective for getting the message across.

Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted ; and he said , For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Speaking of the grave. Obviously.

Psalms 86:13 For you will extend your great loyal love to me,and will deliver my life from the depths of Sheol.

I'm fairly competent in Hebrew so I'll pipe in here. I do believe in the doctrine of hell and I think you can certainly find seeds of it in the OT. It is most clearly revealed in the NT along with the resurrection. But the OT concept of Sheol mostly refers to the grave or possibly to a sort of underworld that all people - wicked and righteous - go to, possibly awaiting judgement. Sheol never clearly refers to a place of torment reserved for the wicked alone.

 

[smithed64]

Where did you pick up the idea that it is historical?

"My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically, and we are now dumb enough to take them literally."
--- John Dominic Crossan

LOL...of course he'd say this He doesn't believe in Christ as our Savior.

He believes Jesus was an exploited "peasant with an attitude" who didn't perform many miracles, physically rise from the dead or die as punishment for humanity's sins.

So why would he believe in Hell. No Christ, No sin, No punishment, No Hell.

Not historical at all.

 

[smithed64]

I'm fairly competent in Hebrew so I'll pipe in here. I do believe in the doctrine of hell and I think you can certainly find seeds of it in the OT. It is most clearly revealed in the NT along with the resurrection. But the OT concept of Sheol mostly refers to the grave or possibly to a sort of underworld that all people - wicked and righteous - go to, possibly awaiting judgement. Sheol never clearly refers to a place of torment reserved for the wicked alone.

Thank you.
Isn't it just used like a metaphor for hell? Again, forgive my ignorance. I should really study more on Hebrew language.
Did they have a word for a place of torment?

 

[Tree of Life]

Thank you.
Isn't it just used like a metaphor for hell? Again, forgive my ignorance. I should really study more on Hebrew language.

The concept of Sheol is the seed from which hell grew.

Did they have a word for a place of torment?

No. The Hebrews did not really have much of a hope for eternal life until the exhilic era. The resurrection of Jesus, though secretly prepared for in the OT, came as a big surprise to the apostles and the Jewish world.

They did, however, have a robust concept of God's judgement. They believed that God would judge the wicked, root them out of the earth, and destroy them forever and that God's people would inherit the earth.

 

[smithed64]

The concept of Sheol is the seed from which hell grew.



No. The Hebrews did not really have much of a hope for eternal life until the exhilic era. The resurrection of Jesus, though secretly prepared for in the OT, came as a big surprise to the apostles and the Jewish world.

They did, however, have a robust concept of God's judgement. They believed that God would judge the wicked, root them out of the earth, and destroy them forever and that God's people would inherit the earth.

Thanks again.
Hope I can come to you for more questions, if you don't mind?
In the future.

 

[Greg J.]

and I'm sure you can back up that claim ?

A person's character—who he is—is affected by the sin in the world. Adam's sin has affected what all humans are like. The effect of living in a sinful world and being fallen ourselves has affected who we are forever. This includes all experiences everyone has had (including experiences of God, who is "far" from us right now because of our sin). God only gave mankind 1 command, but due to sin, God kept adding commands so we would know what causes death (the wages of sin), so we would see there is nothing we can do to undo our sinful past sinful actions, and so we would seek God for forgiveness. We are eternally affected by what happened in our lives, including that the Law was given at all, along with how we responded to God's will.

A person who has examined Scripture while keeping in mind to watch for evidence that those taught by God believed it was a real place of unending punishment—but himself doesn't believe hell is real—is not believing the same Word that I believe. In my mind they don't need to discuss specifics, but need to investigate how it can be that the Bible is all true. This leads to a different (and more useful) investigation.

Without eternal punishment:

• God is not a just God (which is contrary to Scripture)
  
• The wages of sin has nothing to do with spiritual death (which is contrary to Scripture)
• A person disbelieves ... whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18b, 1984 NIV), not to mention several plainly stated verses in revelation, as well as passages like Mark 9:47-48 which Jesus spoke.
  
• A person believes that those with a sinful nature can withstand God's holy presence, when in fact, Scripture testifies that the only way to be rid of sin is for it to be destroyed, and in the case of Jesus and sin coming together, sin was destroyed.
  
• A person fails to recognize where the fault of eternal punishment lies. It's not with God. It would be like saying the judge and prison warden are at fault for enprisoning a mass murder, and that if it weren't for that judge and prison warden, the mass murderer would have been "not guilty" and could have been set free.
  
• If a person fails to see himself as corrupt and irredeemable by any human effort, then what is the point of Jesus dying? If a person rejects God's gift of life in this life, he will remain corrupt forever. Salvation is by faith alone, not by sight. After we die, we see God and being reborn in Christ is no longer possible.

 

[1213]

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

Bible tells:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. …
Matt. 10:28-31

So, according to the Bible, body and soul are destroyed in the hell, which burns forever (Mark 9:43). That the fire burns forever don’t mean that some live there forever, especially when it is said that body and soul are destroyed there. And if something is destroyed, I don’t think it will ever come back.

 

[giftofGod2]

The concept of hell, as referring to a place of everlasting punishment, is indeed spoken of in the word.

Matthew 13:50

Matthew 5:29-30

Mark 9:43-48

Luke 16:19-31

Matthew 25:46

Jude 1:23

Romans 11:9-10

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (does not speak of annihilation as evidenced by a comparison to some of the previous verses (Matthew 13:50, Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19-31, Romans 11:9-10), which speak of conscious waiing and gnashing of teeth as the wicked will be punished with everlasting fire and as they are forever bent backward in their bodies).

In the equation y=1/x, if x=1, y=1. If x=2, y=1/2. If x=4, y=1/4. If x=8, y=1/8. If x=9, y=1/9.

So, if x relates to time elapsed and y related to wholeness of being as the person is destroyed by sin in that fire, on the graph wholeness of being continually diminishes at a decreasing rate and never reaches zero. Wholeness of being is always a fraction of the time elapsed.

Many other verses also speak of hellfire and damnation, I have not given you an exhaustive list.

 

[giftofGod2]

@JackRT,

We find that the book of Job is historical, because we know that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3).

And since He is also the Word, we find that everything in the Word of God is historical, and not just the life of Jesus the Man.

When we say that the Word became flesh, we only mean that God became a Man, but when we say that Jesus Christ (the Word) is come in the flesh, we mean also that everything in the word of God was a reality, all the people who lived and died in the word of God lived and died in all reallity. These were not merely fables or made-up stories. The people in these stories actually suffered the sufferings that you find them suffering in the stories. These people were in Christ and suffered because they were in Christ. They suffered because they were real people and not figments of someone's imagination. To say that they were figments of the imagination is to steal from them their testimony that they suffered for Christ. Would you like it very much if you suffered a very great suffering and 100 years later people said that you never realy suffered it because your life was only a story and had no basis in reality?

I say to you verily that the suffering of Job was real and that the life of Job was real. How else can we take seriously the comfort and exhortation that is found in James 5:10-11?

 

[Jipsah]

There is no such thing as finite sins. The effects of every sin will last for eternity. Also, it matters that sin is against One who is eternal.

My question is what purpose torturing miscreants for all eternity serves. God roasts the damned forever... because He can? Or to show that He's infinitely merciless? That His malice endures forever? Or to serve as an example to the saved so they don't get out of line? Sounds sort of, well, diabolical, doesn't it?

 

[Greg J.]

We have condemned ourselves. Why are you blaming God? If you don't want justice to be done, then seek God's mercy given through Jesus Christ. If you don't want justice to come to others, then tell them about Jesus Christ. If you're not, then you are complaining with empty words or don't believe what God said.

I'm going to have to go with God understanding justice better than anyone on earth.

 

[Jipsah]

The doctrine of hell shows us the justice of God.

Although "cruel and unusual punishment" inflicted by a human, for any crime, is considered unjust. A little special pleading and redefinition of terms to keep God from sounding like a sadistic monster, reckon?

I wonder what alternative you are proposing.

How about the one our Lord gave us: "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Yeah, I know, "destroy" doesn't really mean "destroy" because that would fly in the face of doctrine. But that's what our Lord said, believe it or not. Sounds like a much better plan to me. Erases the sinner from the books altogether. "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." If our Lord didn't know them, they've been removed from existence, past, present, future. Destroyed. Can't be too worried about a dude who never existed, can we?

 

[Jipsah]

Why are you blaming God?

Blaming Him for what? Not being bound by doctrines created by people reading into the Word what they want it to say? Not me.

If you don't want justice to be done

You have different definitions of "justice" when using it in reference to humans and in reference to God, and that's a crock. That's simply saying that what we'd consider both unjust and barbarous in a human we must consider just and merciful in God. Baloney. And the idea of eternal torment in unscriptural anyway, a Doctrine of Men, if you like.

 

[Jipsah]

LOL...of course he'd say this He doesn't believe in Christ as our Savior.

Who are you talking about? And why?

 

[smithed64]

Blaming Him for what? Not being bound by doctrines created by people reading into the Word what they want it to say? Not me.

You have different definitions of "justice" when using it in reference to humans and in reference to God, and that's a crock. That's simply saying that what we'd consider both unjust and barbarous in a human we must consider just and merciful in God. Baloney. And the idea of eternal torment in unscriptural anyway, a Doctrine of Men, if you like.

Underlined where you are mistaken.
Eternal torment is very scriptural.

The final state of the wicked and the good are vastly different. For the wicked, which includes the fallen angels, there is a terrible, eternal, and conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. This is often a difficult doctrine to deal with because some people have trouble reconciling God's great love, and His desire that no one perish, with this doctrine of eternal torment. After all, the idea of a loving God who would willingly condemn people to eternal conscious torment without hope, without redemption, and without any chance of the torment ending, can be very difficult to comprehend. Nevertheless, the issue is not whether such a teaching is pleasant or unpleasant. The issue is whether or not the Bible teaches it.
Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exodus 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just (2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). This is why God punishes the sinner (Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:29), because God is righteous and must punish, in order to sanction His righteousness.
The Bible teaches there is a fiery Hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.

• "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).
• "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire," (Jude 7).
• "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
• "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
• "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire," (Matt. 3:12).

Therefore, we can see that the reality of Hell is clearly taught in Scripture. The final state of all who have sinned against God, and are not covered in the blood of Christ, will be eternal conscious agony in hellfire. This is not a pleasant prospect for either the Christian or the non-Christian to comprehend. No one wants to see such eternal judgment. If anything, it should motivate the Christian to evangelize all the more.

Sin Versus Punishment

Some might ask why the punishment is so severe, even for relatively minor sins. They often ask if someone who was a good person his whole life, and sinned relatively little, will suffer eternal anguish if he dies without trusting in Christ. Is that fair? The answer is stark; Yes, it is fair. It is fair because punishment is not related to the offense or the offender as much as it is related to the One who was offended. When we sin, we sin against an infinitely holy God. This is equivalent to an infinite offense because of Who is offended. This is why we need an infinitely valuable sacrifice to "undo the damage," to satisfy God. This is why Jesus, who is God in flesh, and Who is of infinite value, is able to save us from the eternally righteous judgment of God. But for those who are not covered in the sacrifice of Christ, their offense against an infinite God will weigh upon them on the Day of Judgment, and they will suffer for eternity. Therefore, the punishment is properly related to the value of the One who was offended. Since God is infinite and eternal, so too must the punishment be eternal.

The thing is this. If we are Born Again, we also will be judged by Christ, not by our salvation, but by our works. Some will have great works and will go thru the refining fire and lose nothing. Some will not have any works or very little, they will lose something, but not their name from the lambs book of life.
I kind of see it this way. If you obeyed God who is eternal, which is why he punishes eternally. Then God will grant you the rewards. If you only did some things, maybe a little witnessing here and there, reached out your hand and wallet to help the poor, just enough to make you feel good, while also giving God the praise. Then you'd receive, just a portion of what God has to give.
We will all stand before the Bema Seat, and we will all go thru the refining fire. But because Christ died and nailed our sins to the cross and shed His blood for us. We will not see eternal torment.

 

[smithed64]

Where did you pick up the idea that it is historical?

"My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically, and we are now dumb enough to take them literally."
--- John Dominic Crossan

Who are you talking about? And why?

I got this from the above quote #20 from JackRT.
John Dominic Crossan, Doesn't believe in Christ as the risen Savior. He kind of makes things up to fit his own god and to justify his way of living.
So of course he wouldn't believe in Hell.