Fellowship with Non-Adventists

[StormyOne]

And this passage is not adhered to because?

Exodus 31:13-15 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. (14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Or this......

Exodus 35:1-3 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them. (2) Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (3) Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

 

[2tim]

The bible does not say one must work on sunday. It merely says that all one's work should be accomplished in six days

In His service,
Mr. J

Right. Six days for work. "Six days thou shalt work," Exodus 20:9. And which six days? Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.

Is Sunday on that list?
Yes.
So the Bible says that we ought to work on Sunday.

2Tim

 

[StormyOne]

Tim,
That does not make sense... there are many people who work Mon - Fri 8 to 5. So they are breaking the commandment because their work week is only 5 days as opposed to 6? (let me be off topic for a minute... we take part of this to be literal, yet we aren't killing those members who are working on sabbath.)

 

[2tim]

Tim,
That does not make sense... there are many people who work Mon - Fri 8 to 5. So they are breaking the commandment because their work week is only 5 days as opposed to 6? (let me be off topic for a minute... we take part of this to be literal, yet we aren't killing those members who are working on sabbath.)

In all frankness, I was teasing about working on Sunday. I was working on Sunday for a while. Then I stopped and got things done around my house during the warmer seasons. Now I'm back to working on Sunday. Sometimes Sunday is a "lay day" for me. But the response I got was so silly that I couldn't resist persuing the subject.

I am not in any way saying that the Bible REQUIRES us to work on Sunday. I am saying that it says to work six days. I am saying that Sunday is one of those six days. Seems pretty straight forward.

Do I think that everyone who is going to the beach on Sunday is in danger of breaking the Commandment? No.

Do I think that it is silly to say "The Bible doesn't tell us to work on Sunday, it says to work six days [and Saturday can't be one of them]"? Yep.

I appologize teasing and for letting myself getted sucked into pursuing this line of discussion. I'm going to break off from it lest I say anything unkind and sin.

God bless guys.

2Tim

 

[2tim]

And this passage is not adhered to because?

Oh, one last thing. Stormy, it's because we are not living under a theocracy [direct divine government], as OT Israel was. The concequences of disobeying this Comandment are postponed until our Lord returns. What is the reward for sin?

Ok, cya guys.

2Tim

 

[awesumtenor]

I am not in any way saying that the Bible REQUIRES us to work on Sunday.

Saying "I do what the bible says we must do on sunday; I work" is saying the bible requires one to work on sunday; had you said "what we *may* do" or even "what we *should* do" then your statement above would be true.

It may not have been your intent to say it... but it is what you said.

I appologize teasing and for letting myself getted sucked into pursuing this line of discussion.

"Sucked into pursuing this line of discussion"? Umm...the statement that started this line of discussion was yours... and by your own admission you didn't have to go there...

I'm going to break off from it lest I say anything unkind and sin.

If you hadn't already thought something 'unkind', you wouldn't be concerned about saying something unkind...and if you've thought it, you've already sinned... but it's all good; you have an advocate before the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous...

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[2tim]

Saying "I do what the bible says we must do on sunday; I work" is saying the bible requires one to work on sunday
In His service,
Mr. J

I really wanted to let you have the last word brother, so please reply to this post. But I should point out that while "in His service" you misquoted me, spinning my statement to support your point.

Actual quote: But I do what the Bible says to do on Sunday. I work.

The word must never came out of my mouth. And, the Bible does say to work on Sunday.

I want you to have the last say in our exchange, so go ahead and I'll be silent.

God bless,
2Tim

 

[awesumtenor]

I really wanted to let you have the last word brother, so please reply to this post. But I should point out that while "in His service" you misquoted me, spinning my statement to support your point.

Actual quote: But I do what the Bible says to do on Sunday. I work.

The word must never came out of my mouth. And, the Bible does say to work on Sunday.

I want you to have the last say in our exchange, so go ahead and I'll be silent.

God bless,
2Tim

My apologies; I was recalling your statement from memory, rather than quoting it directly. I should have quoted it. But the argument stands... the commandment is not obligating one to work each of the other 6 days of the week; it is obligating one to *not work* on the seventh day. The bible says that one's work should be completed in the first 6 days of the week without further specification as to when it should commence. At best it says what one can do on the first day of the week but it does not say what one is to do... and since, by your own admission you were not being truthful, but rather just 'teasing' it's not worth further comment... especially since you find yourself unable to avoid being... "unkind" because it didn't quite turn out as you might have thought and thus it's no longer "fun".

Moving on...

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[awesumtenor]

So please, DO try to enlighten the errant one.

I've been doing that, my sister... but it takes time to break up fallow ground.

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[SpeakNow]

2Tim, your Christian approach and insistance on being the bigger man does not go unnoticed brother. My hat is off to you for rising above. God bless.

 

[tall73]

And my friend Ben to a lame as adventist youth thing that embarrased me horrifically (all of this emotional music... kids didn't even know what they were talking about... they said Einstein was a christian and the twin towers collapsed in 2002, but they did make an effort I suppose )

Wow! I feel for ya! How many refuse to invite friends because they fear it will be lame!

Keep discussing with those friends. It is key.

 

[tall73]

You've made an errant presumption. I never stated what about it made me scratch my head. You presumed to know... and you are mistaken.

In His service,
Mr. J

If you put something people are going to interpret it. So if you don't want to have your intent misconstrued perhaps you should spell it out. If you don't give us enough information to take the comment one way or another perhaps you don't need to post it at all.

It is true that we are not mind readers. But once you put part of your mind in print it is open for interpretation. Then you may clarify, but to say that 2Tim or anyone else is purposely making a presumption is simply rude. Once you commit yourself to print, you leave yourself open to interpretation.


Sassy, I can understand if you feel you don't want to go back to that setting or give reason to confuse people. But if I go with a friend of mine to their church I do it because I recognize that they worship the same Christ, even if they don't know all that I do on certain aspects. Nor do I on some they might know. For that matter, if I want them to come to my church I feel it fair to go to theirs.

I don't think you are in any way compelled to go. But I don't feel I am breaking the Sabbath in any way to go to church with them.

 

[SassySDA]

2Tim, your Christian approach and insistance on being the bigger man does not go unnoticed brother. My hat is off to you for rising above. God bless.

I completely concur with this statement. 2Tim, thank you for showing us an example we should all be following.

 

[Seraph1m]

If you put something people are going to interpret it. So if you don't want to have your intent misconstrued perhaps you should spell it out. If you don't give us enough information to take the comment one way or another perhaps you don't need to post it at all.

It is true that we are not mind readers. But once you put part of your mind in print it is open for interpretation. Then you may clarify, but to say that 2Tim or anyone else is purposely making a presumption is simply rude. Once you commit yourself to print, you leave yourself open to interpretation.

Luk 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge [him] vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
Luk 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him. KJV

 

[awesumtenor]

If you put something people are going to interpret it. So if you don't want to have your intent misconstrued perhaps you should spell it out. If you don't give us enough information to take the comment one way or another perhaps you don't need to post it at all.

If one chooses to presume my reason for saying something then they are not interpreting anything... and there will always be those who want to misconstrue intent no matter how clearly something is stated.

As for whether there was enough information to take the comment one way or another, suffice it to say that there was, although it was hiding in plain sight.

It is true that we are not mind readers. But once you put part of your mind in print it is open for interpretation.

This applies to everyone, not just me...

Then you may clarify, but to say that 2Tim or anyone else is purposely making a presumption is simply rude. Once you commit yourself to print, you leave yourself open to interpretation.

Your not seeing the presumption made does not make it nonexistent...As the person who made the statement being 'interpreted' I can say if said interpretation is wrong... no matter how many others may choose to agree with it... and again, the latter statement applies to everyone, not just me...

But your opinions are noted for the record.

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[tall73]

Luk 11:53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge [him] vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
Luk 11:54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him. KJV

Yes, and some would say that making vague comments and including emoticons, and then stating that they were not saying what was inferred would likewise be provoking.

2 Tim answered what he thought to be the intent. That is not at all provoking, it is trying to make sense out of what was posted.

 

[tall73]

If one chooses to presume my reason for saying something then they are not interpreting anything... and there will always be those who want to misconstrue intent no matter how clearly something is stated.

As for whether there was enough information to take the comment one way or another, suffice it to say that there was, although it was hiding in plain sight.

Hiding in plain sight. Yes, that is the problem. Becoming upset with someone for taking a statement that was intentionally vauge the way that you did not intend does not seem logical. If you obscure your meaning then you cannot blame others for taking it the wrong way.

Now you are of course welcome to correct the statment with your true view. But 2 Tim is not to be blamed for taking it to mean something.

This applies to everyone, not just me...

Quite agreed.

Your not seeing the presumption made does not make it nonexistent...As the person who made the statement being 'interpreted' I can say if said interpretation is wrong... no matter how many others may choose to agree with it... and again, the latter statement applies to everyone, not just me...

Again, agreed. But then why get upset with them for assuming the meaning if you don't make the meaning clear?

But your opinions are noted for the record.

Thanks, yours as well.

 

[awesumtenor]

Yes, and some would say that making vague comments and including emoticons, and then stating that they were not saying what was inferred would likewise be provoking.

Would that be for every instance such is done or just when certain posters do it?

2 Tim answered what he thought to be the intent. That is not at all provoking, it is trying to make sense out of what was posted.

No; if one does not know, he seeks clarification, rather than presuming to be a mind reader, which you've already conceded that none of us is. It cannot be both ways... you cannot defend him by saying he lacked enough information to know and that the statement to which he replied was vague but then turn around and say he answered 'what he thought to be the intent'. If you initial defense is true and the statement was too vague to determine what I was specifically alluding to, then it is illogical to respond without first getting more information, especially after I told him that what he 'thought to be the intent' was wrong...

If you have further questions, comments or concerns regarding this, please PM me; that way we wont give the mods indigestion beyond what they already have...

In His service,
Mr. J

 

[tall73]

Would that be for every instance such is done or just when certain posters do it?

That would be for all who do it.

No; if one does not know, he seeks clarification, rather than presuming to be a mind reader, which you've already conceded that none of us is. It cannot be both ways... you cannot defend him by saying he lacked enough information to know and that the statement to which he replied was vague but then turn around and say he answered 'what he thought to be the intent'. If you initial defense is true and the statement was too vague to determine what I was specifically alluding to, then it is illogical to respond without first getting more information, especially after I told him that what he 'thought to be the intent' was wrong...

No, sorry, the comment has implied meaning to those who see it. He was trying to take your comment seriously by giving it what he thought was the most sensible interpretation. Once you put it out there people will interpret it. Correcting the meaning is fine, but not berating those who didn't get your precise meaning when you posted something that was vague to start with.

If you have further questions, comments or concerns regarding this, please PM me; that way we wont give the mods indigestion beyond what they already have...

In His service,
Mr. J

No thanks, I chose to comment here. I posted it here to clarify an issue that happens often. If the mods wish to correct me that is fine. But you publicly took 2Tim to task for assuming, when he was trying his best to make sense of your comment. So I publicly stated that I thought you were wrong to do so. It is already a public issue. If you wish to relegate things to pm perhaps you could make your initial comment to him by pm.

 

[Sophia7]

Thanks

I noticed people saying that the Sabbath is a time to worship God... is this a specific SDA belief (or SDA-flavour belief, I guess!) or an extrapolation of the Sabbath being set apart for God, and for going to church?

The reason I ask... I've been thinking a fair bit recently about the concept in the bible of our lives as worship, and service to the poor and 'oppressed' in society as an act of worship... and started wondering if we're ever told, in Scripture, that the Sabbath is meant for corporate worship.

NOTE: I'm not trying to start a 'do we need to go to church on a Saturday?' debate... I'm curious about the idea of going to church to worship. Maybe my question would be better phrased as... what do adventists tend to believe is the point of going to church? (since I've confused myself a little, I'm hoping others can make sense of my excessively-rambling question!)

I believe that the Sabbath is a time to worship God; this is not to say that we shouldn't worship God all the time, but the Sabbath is a holy day set apart (sanctified) by God at creation. The difference between worshiping God on Sabbath and worshiping Him on other days is that on Sabbath we rest from our jobs and our secular activities (although there are differences of opinion among many Adventists as to what kinds of activities are acceptable on Sabbath) and devote ourselves fully to God, without the outside distractions that often preoccupy our time during the rest of the week. Thus, the Sabbath is not meant to be a burden or a legalistic way of trying to earn salvation, but a blessing from God to help us draw closer to Him. Here is a quote from Isaiah 58, which I think conveys the attitude that God wants us to have toward the Sabbath:

13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD's holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob."
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.

The Sabbath is about finding joy in the Lord, and it's easier to do that when we can completely focus on Him and not have to think about going to work and cleaning our houses and paying our bills and grocery shopping and all of the other activities that normally take up most of our time and cause us to push God into the background.

As far as whether the Bible says that we have to go to church to worship (which seems to be your real question--correct me if I'm wrong), no, it doesn't say that. Worship can happen anywhere. And, regardless of whether we go to church on Saturday or Sunday, worship can happen any day. However, the Bible does say that meeting together with other Christians is important. The early Christians met every day in the temple courts:

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Notice that they also met in homes to eat and fellowship. This kind of fellowship is something that I think we often miss out on today. We should not focus only on going to church once a week and ignore the need for worship and fellowship the rest of the week.

In addition, we can look at the example of the apostles and the other early Christian missionaries, who went to church regularly, not just on Sabbath, although they did that, too. Acts 3:1 mentions that Peter and John went to the temple at the time of prayer (three in the afternoon). Since this comes immediately after the description in chapter 2 of the Christians' daily meeting in the temple courts, I would assume that they did this frequently, probably every day.

When the gospel began spreading beyond Jerusalem, it was often preached first in the Jewish synagogues (see Acts 13-14). Paul and Barnabas preached to both Jews and Gentiles in the synagogues on Sabbath, sometimes getting almost everyone in a city to come and listen to them. If the Jews rejected the message, they took it just to the Gentiles. We see this same pattern in almost every city to which they traveled--Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus. Paul went to the synagogues on Sabbaths (Acts 17:2 calls this his custom), where he taught both Jews and Gentiles, and he also often preached daily in the marketplaces (as in Athens) or other places where Gentiles would gather, such as in the lecture hall of Tyrannus in Ephesus (Acts 19). In this way, he was able to spread the message of Jesus to "all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia" (Acts 19:10).

In Philippi (see Acts 16), there was no Jewish presence and no synagogue, so Paul and his companions went to a place of prayer outside the city on Sabbath, where Paul preached to some of the Gentile women of the city, including Lydia, who worshiped God already but who then became a Christian, along with her whole family.

Now, some might say that Paul and the others went to church on Sabbath only because they wanted to preach to the Jews. However, if that were the case, why would they also go to the place of prayer in Philippi on Sabbath when there was no synagogue? They could have talked to the Gentiles there on any other day, perhaps in the marketplace. And they did that in many cities every day, in addition to speaking in the synagogues. However, they also made a special point of going to the temple and to the synagogues and to the places of prayer to fellowship with other believers and to teach people about Jesus and to worship God.

Thus, I believe that it is important for Christians to go to church so that we can learn about God and worship God and share our experiences with others. We can do these things on other days besides Sabbath. We can do these things every day. We should do these things every day. But the blessing of the Sabbath is that we have a whole day to devote our undivided attention to God, and worshiping with other Christians in church and hearing instruction in the Word of God encourages us and strengthens our spiritual lives. Hebrews 10 addresses the importance of meeting with other Christians:

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

By the way, I agree that we should devote our entire lives to God, in accordance with Romans 12:1-2:

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

I also agree that service to others is an important aspect of being a Christian; after all, Jesus spent His whole life denying Himself and helping others. However, these ideas do not negate the spiritual benefits of going to church to worship God with other Christians. All of these things are important expressions of our devotion to God.