Jesusfreak5000,
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us.
How does that support your case. This is speaking AFTER regeneration. It is when a believer is already IN Christ.
This grace has already been lavished on us, as per verse 8. I have redemption through His blood and forgiveness of my trespasses, which can only be accomplished in Him. Therefore, I am in Him
It is being lavished upon a believer because they are IN Him. One can ONLY become a member of that Body, by faith. Justification by faith along with the subsequent repentance and baptism and regeneration, the beginning of the relationship with Christ.
Verse 4 makes that quite clear.
Once again, no man can cause his regeneration. How can a man have a cause in his being born? The physical mirrors the spiritual; it is the purpose of Jesus' use of "birth" as a description of regeneration. Birth is totally apart from the one being born. I take no part at all in causing my physical birth, and so it is with spiritual birth.
That may be your view, but that has never been the view of scripture. What you call a rebirth is a reconnection with God. A re-etrance into a relationship. A relationship whose consumation was cut off by the fall. Christ redeemed mankind for the sole purpose that God and man could once again join in communion. We can enter that relationship and when we do receive a host of spiritual gifts to assist us in our salvation. God is the initiator of that relationship, a relationship He desires with every single one of his most prized creatures, all who bear His Image. Man is given all he needs to respond to that call to enter and when man desires, believes, commits himself to Christ, then that relationship begins and we can say it was regenerated. What was lost was rekindled, recreated, restarted. You can use any word you wish, they all mean the same thing regarding that spiritual relationship with Christ.
Ah, but you mean different. All of your definitions are different from mine. We are playing a word game.
that may be, but I am using them as scripture has always used them, and has they have always been understood, since the beginning. Can you document it being different?
While we await the consummation of our salvation, it is sure and cannot be overturned. Therefore we are who are "saved" are spoken of as though it has already happened; it is completely sure to happen.
Depends on just which aspect of salvation you are referrencing. Since we are speaking of our relationship with Christ it is not even close to being finite in this life. The salvation of our souls depends on our faith. If we lose faith, and most of the NT is directed toward a believer losing faith, we cannot be saved in the end. We did not endure that relationship. Give me one text that says man upon a simply ascent of faith, a one time belief has been declared saved in this life and nothing he does can change his relationship with Christ? Find even a hint of one. It is a really warm fuzzy, great psychological idea, but you will find nothing in scripture to support it.
One cannot be lost from Christ once being included in Him-
Nice statment, but not scriptural. Especially when most of the NT speaks directly opposite of such a view.
Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Why would Christ reject any human being who came as a result of His universal call to repentance. He desires that all men come to know Him as their Lord. God is not the one who breaks off the relationship. It is sinful man, man who desires to put himself in front more often than God. Man who must constantly work with the Holy Spirit so that He does not falter. But, alas, man had, does and will in the future leave the fold. God works to get him back but man can and does resist the Holy Spirit. So much so, that a believer is warned not to quench the Spirit, which is obviously possible. You had earlier stated that man's sanctification is a synergistic relationship. Now you want to change your view and say man has no volition, has no choice. God has him in a straightjacket. What kind of relationship would that be?
Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
And that is to save all of mankind, including the world. All were given to Him, so that He did not lose a single one. John 6:39. Aligns with Rom 5:18-19, Rom 11:32, I Cor 15:22 and many more.
Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
you might note that the pronoun is "it". It is not a personal pronoun. It is refering to the nature which Christ assumed in His Incarnation. That is our human natures which He raised from death to life. It is why we shall all be raised on the last day to stand in judgement before Him. It also aligns with Col 1:15-20, All things were given to Him, not just our natures.
If all that the Father gives will come, and all those that come will not be lost, then necessarily, none will be lost.
You got that right. But unfortunately none of this is dealing with our personal relationship with Christ. It is directly speaking of Christ's Work on the Cross which purpose was that man could again enter into communion with God. Man first needed life, and reconcilement to God which is Christ's Work.
One, all men will not be ?d??ase?, which is the word meaning "have been glorified" referring to "to those in Christ Jesus" in 8:30, which means to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate, hold in honour, make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour, etc. This word does not describe those who are not in Him, for they will simply be "raised", not "glorified".
Glorified is a spiritual Body. We shall all be raised with this same Body, a Body which Christ gave to us at His resurrection. This is a nature for all human beings, not just believers. All men will surely stand before Christ at that last day. All men shall be raised from the dead and give an account of what they have done. Rev 20: 11-15. the text in Rom 8:30 is being addressed to believers, but they are simply the ones who responded to the work of God upon man. God calls all men, and those that believe are justified through or by their faith. Those that are so justified and it they remain, will be glorified.
If Christ redeemed mankind, gave Life to the World, and did this through His Incarnation, then there is no distinction between human beings. We all possess the same human nature. It is why He assumed it, so it could be healed.
The text is addressing "those who are in Christ Jesus" (verse 1). Therefore it is only referring to them, not all of mankind. You'll have to give more reasoning than this. Coupled with the meaning of "glorified", it can and only means "those in Christ".
See above.
You cannot have a beleiver unless Christ gave life to the world. This is also very clearly stated in I Cor 15:14-19. Unless Christ saved mankind from the fall, which precluded union and communion, all is moot, vain, meaningless.
I never said he has no will. Man is made up volition, emotion and intellect. However, his volition is fallen. See Ephesians 2:1-3.
` Which is why Christ was needed to restore the Image of God in man. Christ freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin, the condemnation of death through Adam Which is why Eph 2:1-3 is not just speaking of beleivers who would obviously be made alive, but that all men were made alive. If not, then God could not call all men to repentance, In fact, you would not have a single beleiver as all men would still be dead in sins and treaspasses through Adam. Man either has a will, or he does not have a will. You cannot go back and forth and say that sometimes he does, then he does not. The fact is, man is free, he has a will that is independent of the will of God. Man is given the charge, the responsibility to align his will with that of God's will. God does not do the will of man, man does the will of God.
I never said his nature changes... quite a misrepresentation of my position.
That is what it means. It would mean the same thing as saying that man has two legs at one time then at another time he has no legs. The will of man is inherently part of man. It is part of the Image of God in man the rational soul. That he does or does not can be contested, but not that he changes his nature.
I never said you said that; I was implying that you believe regeneration to be synergistic.
It sure is. Everything in our relationship with God is synergistic. It does not mean man does things alone, nor does God do things alone. It means both must contribute or nothing will happen.
But only those in Christ are renewed; therefore those who are not in Christ must have their volition restored before believing. You have stated it yourself, which is quite contrary to the typical eastern orthodox belief
Hardly, if so Christ was a complete failure. If Christ did not give LIfe to the world, did not redeem the whole world and mankind with it, then faith, believing, heaven and hell are all moot topics. Show that the Orthodox Church does not believe in the Incarnation. That all men have been saved from the fall. That Christ has come to give Life to the world. You will find not a single objection to that view from the very beginning.
Corrupted? In what way? Spiritual death? Just spiritual injury, but not enough to keep us from coming to Him?
Spiritual death does not mean corrupted. Man became mortal, which is corruption or our fallenness. Man has always been connected to God. The soul of man is the link with God. Man has always sought God. Most men purvert that seeking and ended up with idols. But man has been able to find God since Adam. Just look at Abel, then Enoch, Noah, Abraham and many more. But God in these last days, sent His Son to redeem the world. Redeem it so that the Holy Spirit could be poured upon all flesh, Acts 2:17 and the work of the Holy Spirit is to call all men to repentance. All men have the ability and capability to respond to God, always have had, as Paul states in Rom 1:18-22.
Where's the proof text for this???
Gave several already. But here is the collection of many with corrobative support as well.
II Cor 5:14-19, Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; Rom 11:32; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, John 6:39. Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13.
This has all been refuted above.
Not that it stand the test of Scripture, as always having been believed. It may be your view, but I saw no evidence that it has been the understanding of Christianity from the beginning.
In a sense this is true, however, that faith is given to him, and because of God's irresistable grace bestowed upon him, he exercises it.
He exercises it because it is his. He can also resist it as most men do. Many who enter into that relationship rescind that relationship as well. It is a mutual relationship that man is free to come and leave at any time. That is man acting through his will. His will is being influenced by the Holy Spirit, but also influenced by Satan and the flesh. Man, his will is the fulcrum that swings between the two positions freely. Give me a text that says God's grace is irresistable?
Once again, you are attributing man's being "born again" to his works, which is completely opposite of the term... birth cannot be caused by the one being birthed, and this is the downfall of your view.
show that it is a downfall by some evidence other than your opinion. Give some historical evidence that Christianity has ever held your view? Or that what I explained has not been the ONLY understanding historically on the concept. Probably because you do not understand what is being regenerated. It is a relationship, a lost relationship due to the fall.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved}
Ephesians is written to Christians, however, these two verses incorporate the larger group, mankind as well. Beleivers are impossible to have without mankind being redeemed first.
Then the next verses are speaking ONLY of believers. Paul is now speaking ONLY of them and their relationship with Christ.
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
This is the relationship we have with Christ, by faith and through faith. It is possible because man was given life first. A dead human being cannot believe, cannot respond to God. Which is the ONLY reason that Christ came because man surely could not save himself, could not give himself life, nor atone for his sins either.
It was to show His grace and mercy. That is why He saved us. it wasn't for us, but for Him, to display the fullness of His glory. While of course, God want communion with His creation, it is not His underlying purpose in creating us. It was to glorify Himself.
You make God egocentric God does not need anything, surely not to glorify himself.
He saved the world, first of all, so that He could be the victor over Satan and death. Satan ruled this world through death. God was not willing to permit the world He had created and called it good, to simply dissolve into death, nothingness.
Second, those creatures, called human beings, all bear His Image and He was not willing to lose any of them to death either. But when it comes to our relationship with that creator, God created us free, to enter or respond to Him freely ,which does glorify him. That is why man is free, and why God will not, cannot, change how He created man. It would destroy the purpose of his creation.
You have yet to show that it might be backwards. You'll need a lot more evidence than you have presented so far.
