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"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

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Charis kai Dunamis

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Quoted by MamaZ:
Unsaved men live to sin. They even plot it out sometimes before they follow through with it. Premeditated.
And we're right back to the "fatal flaw".

If unregenerated men can ONLY sin, and regenerated men can ONLY follow God (because each does according to his nature) --- then why do we sin at all?

Who said regenerate man only has one nature?

If I am following Paul correctly, regenerate man can operate within the spirit and within the flesh...

Grace is resistible, isn't it?

You make the mistake of asserting a position to reformed theology that it does not hold...

Irresistible grace is a doctrine pertaining to God's monergistic workings in a salvific sense, NOT in sanctification. To say that "regenerate man sinning" is a case of God's grace being resisted by the elect is to argue against something that is not being asserted in the first place.
 
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Rightglory

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nobdysfool,

The truth of the matter is, Grace brings us to the place where we CAN choose. Apart from Grace, no man will choose to follow Christ, or obey God. As we've told you many times, it is not that man can't, but apart from Grace, he won't. But you never seem to hear that.
to point you are correct. God is involved with man all the way. We can call it Grace. God created man in His Image, Christ redeemed mankind to restore that Image in man, Then God calls all men to repentance. All men have God's Grace, but man can resist it. That is what you fail to see in Scripture.
No Calvinist has EVER said that the regenerate can only follow God. That is a straw man you have invented to support your theory. You clearly do not understand Calvinism, so you continue to make these false charges, made-up straw men, and avoid answering the tough questions.
I'm beginning to believe that non-Calvinists understand Calvinism much better than those that supposedly believe in it. You may not say so in as many words, but your theology says it point blank. If God monergistically, predestines, man to believe and that man then cannot lose that salvation, it of necessity much ONLY mean that a regenerate in your theology can ONLY follow God. If you believe he sins, which I know you say he does, then it cannot be man that sins. It is God that sins or the Holy Spirit that sins. Your theology has taken away the will of man. Man is no longer a volitional being if God monergistically chooses for Him to act a certain way. You cannot have man being two distinct natures, one with a will and one without a will. It is either or. That is why Calvinism is so obviously unscriptural.
If you think that man has some choice to sin, but cannot lose that relationship with Christ, then you also have a person who can sin but still be saved. There is really no difference between an unbeliever and a believer, EXCEPT, that a believer supposedly was monergistically and/or predestined to believe which has no affect upon his being in this life, or no change in man. It only guarantees a heavenly reward, but he can live just like any other unbeliever.
That is also why you have such difficulty with the atonement. You have man being forgiven, arbitrarily, well, by predestination or monergistically in one swoop all sins possible for that individual. Yet he can keep right on sinning and Christ's blood has those sins covered. His life need not be any different than an unbeliever's life. It is why there are so many contradictions in the theology of Calvinism in respect to Scripture. And that living is quite easy to discern in reality.
 
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cygnusx1

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nobdysfool,


to point you are correct. God is involved with man all the way. We can call it Grace. God created man in His Image, Christ redeemed mankind to restore that Image in man, Then God calls all men to repentance. All men have God's Grace, but man can resist it. That is what you fail to see in Scripture.
I'm beginning to believe that non-Calvinists understand Calvinism much better than those that supposedly believe in it. You may not say so in as many words, but your theology says it point blank. If God monergistically, predestines, man to believe and that man then cannot lose that salvation, it of necessity much ONLY mean that a regenerate in your theology can ONLY follow God. If you believe he sins, which I know you say he does, then it cannot be man that sins. It is God that sins or the Holy Spirit that sins. Your theology has taken away the will of man. Man is no longer a volitional being if God monergistically chooses for Him to act a certain way. You cannot have man being two distinct natures, one with a will and one without a will. It is either or. That is why Calvinism is so obviously unscriptural.
If you think that man has some choice to sin, but cannot lose that relationship with Christ, then you also have a person who can sin but still be saved. There is really no difference between an unbeliever and a believer, EXCEPT, that a believer supposedly was monergistically and/or predestined to believe which has no affect upon his being in this life, or no change in man. It only guarantees a heavenly reward, but he can live just like any other unbeliever.
That is also why you have such difficulty with the atonement. You have man being forgiven, arbitrarily, well, by predestination or monergistically in one swoop all sins possible for that individual. Yet he can keep right on sinning and Christ's blood has those sins covered. His life need not be any different than an unbeliever's life. It is why there are so many contradictions in the theology of Calvinism in respect to Scripture. And that living is quite easy to discern in reality.

:doh::doh::doh:

clearly you have no understanding of Calvinism/Reformed Faith , why not stick to the subject at hand ?

your becoming like so many posters here , stuck with a daily need to attack Calvinism instead of debating scripture... it's becoming a trait.
 
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cygnusx1

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I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."


- C.H. Spurgeon
 
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Rightglory

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Jesusfreak5000,

Irresistible grace is a doctrine pertaining to God's monergistic workings in a salvific sense, NOT in sanctification. To say that "regenerate man sinning" is a case of God's grace being resisted by the elect is to argue against something that is not being asserted in the first place.
But sanctification is all about salvation. If it is monergistic in a salvic sense it must of necessity be applied throughout the whole of man's relationship with Christ. Otherwise it has no meaning. If you insist it is monergistic then be consistant with your theology.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,

clearly you have no understanding of Calvinism/Reformed Faith , why not stick to the subject at hand ?
Possibly not your particular brand. It is right on subject, the real question, are you on topic. I have not seen any evidence of predestination of individuals as yet from scripture.
your becoming like so many posters here , stuck with a daily need to attack Calvinism instead of debating scripture... it's becoming a trait.
I have ONLY stuck with Scripture. That is the whole point. Calvinism in not scripture if it differs so much from it. I don't see any evidence that I am incorrect.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnus,

Possibly not your particular brand. It is right on subject, the real question, are you on topic. I have not seen any evidence of predestination of individuals as yet from scripture.
I have ONLY stuck with Scripture. That is the whole point. Calvinism in not scripture if it differs so much from it. I don't see any evidence that I am incorrect.

this very posts testifies i am right ......

predestined individuals ;


  • II Thess. 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
  • Matt. 24:24: There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
  • Matt. 24:31: And they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
  • Mark 13:20: For the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened those days (at the destruction of Jerusalem).
  • I Thess. 1:4: Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election.
  • Rom. 11:7: The election obtained it, and the rest were hardened.
  • I Tim. 5:21: I charge thee in the sight of God, and Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.
  • Rom. 8:33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect?
  • Rom. 11:5: (In comparison with Elijah’s time) Even so at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
  • II Tim. 2:10: I endure all things for the elect’s sake.
  • Titus 1:1: Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect.
  • I Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect.
  • I Peter 5:13: She that is in Babylon, elect together with you.
  • I Peter 2:9: But ye are an elect race.
  • I Thess. 5:9: For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
  • John 17:9: I (Jesus) pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine.
  • John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me.
  • John 6:65: No man can come unto me except it be given unto him of the Father.
  • John 13:18: I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen.
  • John 15:16: Ye did not choose me, but I chose you.
  • Ps 105:6: Ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones.
  • Rom. 9:23: Vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.
 
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cygnusx1

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But you have yet to support the position that "repentance is not fully men's decision", and/or that "God honors/receives men's repentance" (rather than causes it)...

:)

if all a sinner has to do is repent and "have faith" then the gate of salvation is wide and many easily find it , BUT seeing as there is counterfeit faith and a counterfeit repentance , clearly having 'faith and repentance' isn't enough - One needs the genuine articles ; only by God's Grace can one be sure they haven't the MAN_MADE fakes.

Cain, Esau, Saul, Ahab, Judas, all repented... and went to hell!


Jesus spoke of temporary faith. "They on the rock are they, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13).

James spoke of dead faith (James 2:17, 26)

Paul spoke of "Believing in vain" (Cor. 15:2).

An example of spurious faith is the case of Simon Magus. "Then Simon himself believed also; and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip" (Acts 8:13) but remained unregenerate and lost!!

Although Paul believed all the Scripture before his conversion, his faith was not saving faith.

Even Agrippa. "King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe" (Acts 26:27). But this faith did not save him.
 
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cygnusx1

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Quote:
who's decision is your next breath ben ?
Apples and oranges; autonomic systems are not in the same ballpark as conscience. (See Acts2:27...)

there are no independent autonomic systems , all things are upheld by Christ!

He upholds all things by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3)

so , the next breath you take is by God's grace , you don't deserve it , and without it HOW are you in any case going to repent ?

Without the Lord's power none can repent , think , speak , act , or breathe , much less save themselves or Regenerate themselves.
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Cygnus:
what a mockery of an answer !

you asked for a repentance that doesn't bring salvation , you got the answer. and what do you do with the answer ? burn rabit trails ! and waffle on making no sense at all.
No, I answered each point; you thought "repenting-of-losing-birthright", was the same as "repentance-from-sin". It's not.
Quote:
and as for you dig at Pink ( a man devoted to the study of scripture for most of his life) such arrogance is ungodly and is YOUR flesh talking.How do I know ? because it stinks of pride and death.
If he's wrong about Scripture, it makes no difference how long he "studied" it. Pink makes the same errors as all Calvinists; primarily, the perception that "unregenerated men cannot believe savingly". They can.
Quote:
ben repent!
Wouldn't that have to be gifted by God, HIS decision rather than Ben's???
;)
Quote:
Repentance is God's gift , why you should deny it speaks more about you than God's precious gift. You have some serious issues with God's generosity.
In Rom2, God's kindness is MEANT to lead to repentance, those who stubbornly do NOT repent.

Why doesn't His "gift of repentance", work?
What's wrong with God???
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Who said regenerate man only has one nature?
Because of verses like 2Cor5:17; "the old has passed away, all things have become new --- he is a new creation". Do you now say "he's still ALSO an old creation"???

Have you ever read, "No one can serve two masters; he will hate the one and love the other"?

In Rom6, Paul says "How can we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?"
Quote:
If I am following Paul correctly, regenerate man can operate within the spirit and within the flesh...
Yes, that is exactly what Paul says. If we read Rom8:12-14, we can walk EITHER in the Spirit, by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh, or we can walk after the lusts of the flesh. Tell me something --- when Paul says "If we walk after the flesh we must DIE", what does "die" mean to you?

Loose a few crowns in Heaven?

You have correctly recognized what Paul was saying, but failed to realize the seriousness...
Quote:
You make the mistake of asserting a position to reformed theology that it does not hold...

Irresistible grace is a doctrine pertaining to God's monergistic workings in a salvific sense, NOT in sanctification. To say that "regenerate man sinning" is a case of God's grace being resisted by the elect is to argue against something that is not being asserted in the first place.
Please explain to me how a man can be "regenerated-saved", but not "sanctified".

How does one exist without the other???
.
 
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Ben johnson

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I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."
I would be careful about saying that, if I were you. I'm not Arminian, though closer to that than Calvinism; however, the God I serve is incapable of causing sin, cannot decree/ordain anyone to perish, truly (as Ezk18 and 1Tim2 say) desires for all to repent. He is the God of HOPE, not the sovereign-decreer of "hopelessness" for the majority of mankind.

What do you believe about God?
 
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Ben johnson

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Quoted by Cygnus:
"All the disputes between us and the Arminians may be reduced to these two questions:

1. Is God dependent on man, or is man dependent on God?

2. Is man a debtor to God or God a debtor to man?"

- Augustus Toplady (1740-1778)
Not really the right question; the right question is:

"Does God INITIATE men's faith, or respond TO men's faith?"

In Heb11:6, He responds to it.
In Acts10:34-35, not only does He RESPOND to seeking/revering, the opposite of that is "PARTIALITY".

God is not partial.

Every verse that is thought to assert "men cannot turn to God", instead says the opposite. 2Cor4:3-4 for instance; read with 3:16, men turn FIRST.

Even Jeremiah 17:9; because verse 10 plainly presents God as RESPONDING TO men, even though their hearts are wicked...
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Jesusfreak5000,


But sanctification is all about salvation. If it is monergistic in a salvic sense it must of necessity be applied throughout the whole of man's relationship with Christ. Otherwise it has no meaning. If you insist it is monergistic then be consistant with your theology.

Regeneration/Justification is monergistic. Sanctification is synergistic.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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Quoted by Jesusfreak5000:
Who said regenerate man only has one nature?
Because of verses like 2Cor5:17; "the old has passed away, all things have become new --- he is a new creation". Do you now say "he's still ALSO an old creation"???

Have you ever read, "No one can serve two masters; he will hate the one and love the other"?

In Rom6, Paul says "How can we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?"

Yes, that is exactly what Paul says. If we read Rom8:12-14, we can walk EITHER in the Spirit, by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh, or we can walk after the lusts of the flesh. Tell me something --- when Paul says "If we walk after the flesh we must DIE", what does "die" mean to you?

Loose a few crowns in Heaven?

You have correctly recognized what Paul was saying, but failed to realize the seriousness...

All believers still sin, Ben. That sin doesn't still separate us from God in a judicial sense, does it? No, because there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So we do not lose our salvation when we sin... but we are obviously exercising another nature, because the new man does not sin. Not only biblically, but experientially I am correct that we have two natures, warring against each other.

Please explain to me how a man can be "regenerated-saved", but not "sanctified".

How does one exist without the other???
.

The regenerate/saved man is positionally sanctified, but not practically sanctified. That is, God sees us as holy and blameless (due to our sins imputed to Christ and His righteousness imputed to us), yet we are still warring with our flesh, and therefore, fail at times - we are sanctified before God judicially yet continue to sin in reality.

That's how.
 
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Rightglory

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Cygnus,
Contrary to your list, not a single one deals with God predestinating anyone, an individual to be a believer. NONE.
predestined individuals ;

II Thess. 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (As an elect God works with those that believe. Believing makes anyone, one of the elect.We enter by being justified by faith. Once we are an elect, then Christ, the Holy Spirit is able to work with man to conform him to Christ, to make him holy, blameless etc. But the ONLY way one can be an elect is by faith.)
Matt. 24:24: There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (The elect is a group, it is the Body of Christ, His Church, those called out. An elect would be a single member of the elect.)

Matt. 24:31: And they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ( His elect are those that have believed. Nothing here to denote that an individual is predestined TO BE AN ELECT.)

Mark 13:20: For the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened those days (at the destruction of Jerusalem). ( again, for the sake of the Chruch, the elect, the Body of the elect, the days will be shortened. Nothing about individuals being predestined to be one of the elect.)
I Thess. 1:4: Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election. (All the elect are are those that believed. Here Paul is saying that He told them of the special purpose they have as the elect. Nothing says that they were predestined to be an elect.)
Rom. 11:7: The election obtained it, and the rest were hardened. (This is part of the discourse of Paul with the hypotheical Judiazer. The judiazer claims, based on what Paul had stated that God then has forsaken Isreal. But Paul says not at all, God is still blessing Isreal, His remnant, those that have believed, they are that remnant, even today, it is a remnant, His Body, His Church that receives the blessings of being chosen, the called out ones.)
I Tim. 5:21: I charge thee in the sight of God, and Jesus Christ, and the elect angels. ( a great proof text but nothing even about believers, let alone believers predestined to believe.)

Rom. 8:33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? ( a group, where does this imply in the context that these individuals who are the elect were predestined to believe or be the elect?)

Rom. 11:5: (In comparison with Elijah’s time) Even so at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (see comment under Rom 11:7 same context)

II Tim. 2:10: I endure all things for the elect’s sake. ( nothing here either about an individual being redestined to believe or become an elect.)

Titus 1:1: Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect. ( those that believe and are IN Christ got there by faith.)

I Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect. (Peter is addressing the Body of Christ, the elect. Nothing about how one becomes an elect, even by faith.)

I Peter 5:13: She that is in Babylon, elect together with you. (just denoting the Body of Christ of which Silvanus is one of them.)

I Peter 2:9: But ye are an elect race. ( actually a called out race, a holy nation, but nevertheless, anyway you say it, it is the group. Nothing about individuals being predestined to be an elect.

I Thess. 5:9: For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (appoint means here, God predestined, chose, appointed that those IN Christ, those that love Him, those that believed in Him would obtain salvation. One needs to enter in order to be saved. We are being saved when we are IN Christ. We get there, we enter by faith. The ONLY way known in scripture.)

Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ( same meaning here)

John 17:9: I (Jesus) pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine. ( specifically referring to the disciples. This is Christ's High Priestly prayer of four parts, this part is for the disciples. He is not praying for anyone else but the disciples.

John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me. ( All were given to Him by the Father, in fact ALL THINGS were given to Him. Col 1:15-20.)

John 6:65: No man can come unto me except it be given unto him of the Father. (And all men were taught by the Father, the Father gave Christ all things, Christ lost none that were given to Him. John 6:39.

John 13:18: I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen. (again only referring to the disciples. God even chose Judas)

John 15:16: Ye did not choose me, but I chose you. ( again a direct discourse to the disciples and thus also to those they have appointed in their stead over 2000 years, all bishops who have the same authority as they received from Christ. It is very specific authority. It is that Apostolic Authority that all protestants have discarded.)
Ps 105:6: Ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones. ( Actually, already of Abraham. Isreal was going to be the chosen people, just as the elect would become the chosen of God in the NT.)

Rom. 9:23: Vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.( Which were the Gentiles. His plan all along was for all mankind. But in order to bring the Messiah into being a chosen race, an people, Isreal would receive special blessings. Not just any Isrealite, but those that blieved, those of faith. It has always been of faith. Those of faith are the true Isrealite.)
Nice job again of prooftexting. You probably picked every verse that has elect, or chosen in it, but none, absolutely none deal with God predestinating an individual to be an elect. One becomes an elect by faith. The ONLY way.
 
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cygnusx1

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Cygnus,
Contrary to your list, not a single one deals with God predestinating anyone, an individual to be a believer. NONE.

If the elect aren't people who do you think they are ^_^:D

Nice job again of prooftexting. You probably picked every verse that has elect, or chosen in it, but none, absolutely none deal with God predestinating an individual to be an elect. One becomes an elect by faith. The ONLY way.

Nonsense !

Faith takes place in time , election takes place in eternity and it is always unconditional !!

Depersonalising election is something scripture doesn't do ... only those who have a problem with it attempt to make Election mean very little or nothing .
 
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cygnusx1

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Quoted by Cygnus:
what a mockery of an answer !

you asked for a repentance that doesn't bring salvation , you got the answer. and what do you do with the answer ? burn rabit trails ! and waffle on making no sense at all.
No, I answered each point; you thought "repenting-of-losing-birthright", was the same as "repentance-from-sin". It's not.

what are you talking about ben ?

as each post goes by you become less understandable.

let us start with this ;

There is a repentance which doesn't save , yes or no .

 
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cygnusx1

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Quote:
I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."
I would be careful about saying that, if I were you. I'm not Arminian, though closer to that than Calvinism; however, the God I serve is incapable of causing sin, cannot decree/ordain anyone to perish, truly (as Ezk18 and 1Tim2 say) desires for all to repent. He is the God of HOPE, not the sovereign-decreer of "hopelessness" for the majority of mankind.

What do you believe about God?

I believe we serve different God's . ..either that or you serve God accidently.

God does decree sin ... the Crucifixion was sin and God decreed it in total.

God does will many to perish for their sin as many scriptures affirm.

God's desire for all to repent is a conditional desire , not an absolute desire otherwise it would be done.

God is the God of all hope , not man with his so called abilities!
 
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