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Fast & Furious

Should Attorney General Holder be held in contempt?

  • Yes, he should be held in contempt (explain)

  • No, he should not be held in contempt (explain)

  • I am not sure.


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RETS

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Not period. There is a separation of law enforcement functions from Congress, which is explained in detail in the OP. I then found several other links, at your request, that discuss that legal separation of functions, which YOU simply refuse to acknowledge. Issa's ability to "oversee" the DOJ is not absolute, but he refuses to accept that. That's why Congressman McCaul ordered the 2nd Inspector General investigation - it's because Issa has jumped the gun and now this is a mess. Issa needs to back off, because a Congressional investigation is premature at this point. Issa won't let Holder withhold information from him, and that goes against precedent.

No, no- I didn't refuse to acknowledge that. In fact, I acknowledged it quite plainly. What you are refusing to see, however, is that even the very name of the committee itself proves my point. Case closed.

Also... You keep quoting "precedent." However, I have yet to see you offer the details of that "precedent." Do you even know? Or are you simply parroting what Holder himself stated?


We are forgetting something here - it doesn't matter what Holder does or does not tell Issa, if he in FACT had no involvement in Fast & Furious. That would make him -- wait for it -- an INVESTIGATOR, and as such he has to keep what he knew and when he knew it (and who told him), close to his vest. He shouldn't be telling ANYONE that, because the people who DID THIS are listening. He wasn't supposed to know.

And as I've said before- He, in fact, did. Regardless of whether or not he "got his hands dirty," as the saying goes, the incoming AG must sign off on all major operations, or call for their halt. It is illogical to believe that he knew nothing about the details of this operation; more to the point, it is completely insane to believe he was never told about it in the first place.
 
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Assuredcw

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No, no- I didn't refuse to acknowledge [the separation between law enforcement and Congress]. In fact, I acknowledged it quite plainly. What you are refusing to see, however, is that even the very name of the committee itself proves my point. Case closed.

Also... You keep quoting "precedent." However, I have yet to see you offer the details of that "precedent." Do you even know? Or are you simply parroting what Holder himself stated?

It's a memo dating back to the Reagan Administration and was described in the OP. Issa is not law enforcement and he cannot assume the role of law enforcement. Holder is supposed to be the one investigating this incident. IF the Inspector General comes back with evidence of wrongdoing, then you've got something, but that's a big IF, and assuming that the investigative role no longer belongs to Eric Holder but to Darryl Issa is NOT the way the GOP will win this election. Just saying.

Regardless of whether or not he "got his hands dirty," as the saying goes, the incoming AG must sign off on all major operations, or call for their halt. It is illogical to believe that he knew nothing about the details of this operation; more to the point, it is completely insane to believe he was never told about it in the first place.

Seriously?! You've never had employees do the exact opposite of what you've told them to do, or seen your coworkers do it when the boss wasn't looking? That's ridiculous, and when the boss is the Attorney General, those employees are a danger to us all. You discount the extreme likelihood that there was insubordination rather than a top-down coordinated smuggling ring organized by the AG himself - LOL! As I said, that's ridiculous, and the employees responsible are likely to be criminals who need to be prosecuted. It wouldn't be a little thing to let them get off scott-free so you can nail Holder for it. That would be cutting off your own nose to spite your face. This is a big problem, and it was OBVIOUSLY done behind Holder's back, because even Holder's subordinates weren't kept in the loop. This kind of operation would never "skip" levels and report directly to someone like 10 salary levels above the participants (that would be Holder). So Issa's insistence on "nailing" Holder for this would be even more negligent than the negligence they accuse Holder of perpetrating in the first place, in supposedly "allowing" the gun smuggling. You have to let him clean it up, because it should be fairly obvious that it occurred several levels below him, and in another department to boot. You verify this by having the Inspector General take a look - Holder requested his own Inspector General to do so, and Congressman Mc Caul asked the Homeland Security Inspector General to do an additional investigation. So now there is nothing, except Darryl Issa of course, to prevent Attorney General Holder from completing his investigation. Once again, not a good thing for Darryl Issa to be famous for.

Those of us who have worked with or supervised sneaky people (like those employees who didn't speak with their supervisors, or supervisors who didn't speak with the AG), can see right through this, and know what the Attorney General is up against.
 
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SharonL

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What I don't understand is why isn't Mexico foaming at the mouth from all that has occurred with these weapons in the wrong hands in Mexico - hundreds have died because of it - why don't they try and bring charges through the UN against the US for this. Not that I want them to, but don't understand why they just stand silently by.
 
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MachZer0

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What I don't understand is why isn't Mexico foaming at the mouth from all that has occurred with these weapons in the wrong hands in Mexico - hundreds have died because of it - why don't they try and bring charges through the UN against the US for this. Not that I want them to, but don't understand why they just stand silently by.
Mexico was in on the deal. The whole point of Fast and Furious was to blame the violence in Mexico on the legal gun shops in Arizona hoping to shut them down. A move toward subverting the 2nd Amendment. So typical of Obama to blame others
 
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Assuredcw

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I think I'm going to dignify that entire response with just one statement:

The last time I had an employee disobey me, they were fired on the spot.

Someone from the ATF was indeed fired immediately, if you read the OP.

But since this happened several levels below Holder, and in another department, he is going to have to investigate to make sure no one else was involved, and the people who cooperate with his investigation have to remain classified, even from Issa.

Reread the OP. Holder is admitting to the committee outright that this IS a potentially criminal matter. In my opinion, it is likely to be.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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But since this happened several levels below Holder, and in another department, he is going to have to investigate to make sure no one else was involved, and the people who cooperate with his investigation have to remain classified, even from Issa.

Isn't the BATFE part of the DOJ, and isn't the AG in charge of the DOJ?
 
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Assuredcw

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Isn't the BATFE part of the DOJ, and isn't the AG in charge of the DOJ?

That's right - it's all under Holder. He's the Big Kahuna, and no one would THINK of doing anything without checking with him first, right? Yeah, right. So because they DIDN'T, Holder has stuff to investigate now.
 
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Assuredcw

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Isaac has a whistle blower with names - all he needs is the original e-mails which Holder won't give up - they have the proof that Holder has lied several times, he just thinks he is above the law. 9th June 2012 09:25 AMIsaac has a whistle blower with names - all he needs is the original e-mails which Holder won't give up - they have the proof that Holder has lied several times, he just thinks he is above the law. 9th June 2012 09:25 AMIsaac has a whistle blower with names - all he needs is the original e-mails which Holder won't give up - they have the proof that Holder has lied several times, he just thinks he is above the law.

This is the EXACT sort of information that needs to remain confidential - the whistleblower's identity, as well as the people he or she is accusing. Issa needs to keep his mitts off of exactly this kind of information, because it is for law enforcement only. No one would say anything if everything of this nature is subject to subpoena. That's why it isn't. ;)

Holder is the top member of Federal law enforcement, and the people who speak to him and send him emails are Federal witnesses. Forcing the disclosure of the identity of a Federal witness is going to cause major problems, because you won't have any more Federal witnesses. No one will talk. If no one will talk, it makes it that much harder to get to the bottom of anything, and we will all be in big trouble.
 
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Assuredcw

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Here's a link from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/u...p-issa-clash-again-over-fast-and-furious.html

You begin reading the story, and the first thing you read is that Issa accuses the Attorney General of not being "a good witness." Uh, excuse me, but the Attorney General is the one who is in law enforcement. All of the people Holder speaks with are Federal witnesses, but that designation doesn't apply to Issa, and furthermore, Issa doesn't appear to be shielding any of this information from the public. Thus he has tied Holder's hands, and he certainly isn't going to be able to tell Issa ANYTHING confidential. I can't believe he doesn't see this!

I am still reading this link, but I'm beginning to be grateful that there are limits on Issa's authority, whether he is willing to recognize them or not, because Issa isn't handling what little authority he does have, responsibly.

Note how the New York Times article ties a benefit for the GOP into a potential contempt citation, because it could potentially interrupt the Justice Dept's enforcement of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. That's a big conflict of interest. Are they SURE they want to get caught with their hands in the cookie jar? (Also leaving a big mess for a substitute AG to clean up, and deliberately leaving a potential infiltration situation intact.)
 
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Assuredcw

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The Huffington Post tells us that Issa has been trying to convince his fellow Republicans to vote on a contempt charge. As we've seen, he's only succeeded in getting another Inspector General investigation going.

As I said, this would be too obvious a power grab, and would leave a troubling and potentially dangerous situation intact. McCaul is doing the right thing, in holding off on that vote until after the IG investigation that he ordered. But Boehner might just be trying to hold the peace, here, because he has never been able to control those Tea Party people in Congress and he's always been "Join 'em."

Fast And Furious Hearing: Republicans Clash With Eric Holder On Gun-Walking Program
 
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Assuredcw

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The other Republicans in Congress see that there are limits to how far they can take this. I'd put money on their refusing to vote on this, until the Homeland Security Inspector General report is ready. Issa won't like that, but that is what I see happening.
 
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Rion

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Assuredcw

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Assuredcw

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The correct response to Fast & Furious is a law enforcement response that NAILS the people responsible, and it is very unlikely to have started at the very top. Did you guys know that there's a Federal death penalty? I have a feeling that heads will roll, and that might be quite literally.

I think THAT is what Congress wants.
 
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SmellsLikeCurlyFries

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Meh. Issa and the GOP need to stop playing around and just do it. I understand why they are doing it. They are trying to look like righteous law abiders for November. It's just not going to work.

Put him on trial, or don't. Just stop playing games.
 
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