Fast & Furious

[Assuredcw]

OK, Fast & Furious is back in the news:

Fast And Furious: Issa Makes The Case For Holder Contempt Resolution | TPMMuckraker

Quoting from the link:

Fast And Furious: Issa Makes Case For Holder Contempt Resolution

House Oversight Committee Chairman Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) on Thursday released a draft memo laying out the case for holding Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for producing a “small fraction” of the documents they requested as part of their investigation into Operation Fast and Furious. The Justice Department, the memo asserted, “has issued false denials, given answers intended to misdirect investigators, sought to intimidate witnesses, unlawfully withheld subpoenaed documents, and waited to be confronted with indisputable evidence before acknowledging uncomfortable facts.”

....A Justice Department official told TPM that DOJ continues to comply with the Oversight Committee’s requests and said the information it has not released is the type that is historically not released because it would [politicize] and jeopardize ongoing criminal investigations and prosecutions. That position, according to DOJ, is backed by an Office of Legal Counsel memo authored by President Ronald Reagan’s Justice Department that asserted turning over such documents would allow Congress to “exert pressure or attempt to influence the prosecution of criminal cases.”

OK - everybody who wants to discuss Fast & Furious, here's (finally) a thread for that. Don't forget to take the poll!

 

[Assuredcw]

I am still reading Darryl Issa's "contempt report," but please say whatever you guys want about Fast & Furious...

 

[Assuredcw]

OK, I think Darryl Issa's suspicions are misplaced, and that the head of the ATF should be the one that rolls.

But wait for it - according to the report:

Dennis Burke – the U.S. Attorney for Arizona who headed the office that led Operation Fast andFurious – was forced to resign. Attorney General Eric Holder now admits the operation was“fundamentally flawed” and that guns from the operation will continue to show up at crimescenes in Mexico and the United States “for years to come.” Attorney General Holder has alsocommitted to ensuring that such an operation will never happen again.

Sorry Congressman Issa - I just don't get what the problem is. The AG doesn't run the ATF, the ATF just reports to him. That's an important distinction. AG Holder didn't appear to have anything to do with this situation, other than cleaning up after it, and Congress should leave him alone IMO.

 

[Assuredcw]

OK, that's the 3rd person who said, "Yes, AG Holder should be held in contempt."

Does anyone want to tell us why they think so?

Was your opinion influenced by Issa's report?

 

[RETS]

My opinion was not influenced by Issa's report, but rather by the fact that he has known about F&F for A LONG TIME, and took no steps to prevent incidents like Brian Terry's murder. Then, in going before the committee, he acted as though he had given them everything, stopping just short of telling them so outright.

In my mind, the biggest problem is that he did not specifically say, "Sir, (or madam), there are some thing which I cannot give you as they are still currently being pursued by the DoJ, and are as such protected." Merely stating that there was more, and that it would be coming as they finished, would have prevented the current situation; not to mention, it would have been honest.

However, that is not why he should be held in contempt. Instead, that's why he should lose his job.

The reason he should be held in contempt is because he stated:

"I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Yet, look at this... And this... And this.

There is no way he had only heard about it in "the last few weeks." That wasn't even close to the truth, and as such, yes- He should be held in contempt.


EDIT: And to head off any potentially forthcoming accusations, I'd be demanding the same were this to have come out under Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr., or...

 

[Assuredcw]

Well, I don't think AG Holder is covering anything up. When he found out about it, it was already spilt milk, and all he could do was clean it up. I didn't find anything in the report that showed Holder's involvement to be more than what I originally thought. So why do they need to get their pound of flesh from Holder? I see embarrassing insubordination on the part of people reporting to Holder, and Holder's attempts to clean it up. I do not see why this is Holder's fault, especially if he facilitated the departure of the people who broke the rules.

 

[Leere]

So why do they need to get their pound of flesh from Holder?

Because a Democrat nominated him? Honestly, I think that's basically all it comes down to.

 

[Assuredcw]

I also am very nervous about the information requested. It would potentially sabotage cases that the FBI is working on. They need to have more on AG Holder IMO to assert that he can't be allowed to decide what to withhold. The whole thing just seems to be full of hot air.

 

[RETS]

Well, I don't think AG Holder is covering anything up. When he found out about it, it was already spilt milk, and all he could do was clean it up. I didn't not find anything in the report that showed Holder's involvement to be more than what I originally thought. So why do they need to get their pound of flesh from Holder? I see embarrassing insubordination on the part of people reporting to Holder, and Holder's attempts to clean it up. I do not see why this is Holder's fault, especially if he facilitated the departure of the people who broke the rules.

Facilitating and arresting are two different things. There was far more he could have done than merely "clean up spilled milk." And again, as I said, he flat out lied, which is usually why people are held in contempt anyhow.

My answer remains.

 

[Assuredcw]

So do you think the whole (Fast & Furious) concept was Holder's idea? Or do you just think he is covering up? If so, what do you think his motive is for covering up?

 

[RETS]

So do you think the whole (Fast & Furious) concept was Holder's idea? Or do you just think he is covering up? If so, what do you think his motive is for covering up?

I know it wasn't his- F&F existed by a different name under Janet Reno.

However, he DID attempt to cover it up, as his own actions prove. As for why, well, he was probably attempting to keep it from becoming public. The thing I've noticed, though, is that it's much worse to attempt to keep something from going public, because where it once may have damaged someone's reputation, that someone is most certainly going to be you.

In other words, he probably had good intentions, but intentions get you nowhere.

 

[Assuredcw]

I fundamentally disagree with your premise, though. If AG Holder had no involvement, he should be allowed to use his judgement in deciding what information he can disclose. The politicization problem must have been pretty bad in the Reagan years, and we know that it has exploded exponentially since then. Issa appears to have gotten carried away here, because the only justification for putting Holder through the ringer is if Holder, personally, was in charge. His subordinates were, so the ball is supposed to remain in his court. Congress is acting as though there is no AG, and they are the investigators. That job should still belong to AG Holder - after all, this is his headache.

 

[citizenthom]

If a private attorney purposefully withheld lawfully-subpoenaed documents simply because "we don't like other people looking at them," they would not only beheld in contempt of court, but subjected to sanctions; and if they admitted that it was a matter of course for them to withhold such documents, they would be professionally disciplined and possibly disbarred. Purposefully lie to a tribunal and you're almost certainly facing suspension or disbarment. Contempt of Congress and losing his job is pretty light for what Holder has done throughout this scandal: he should lose his license to practice law in every state to which he is admitted.

And yes, the Attorney General, like a partner in a law firm, is responsible for every decision made by lawyers under his supervision--even if he is just continuing a previous AG's policies. Just because the last guy didn't get caught doesn't mean you aren't on the hook.

 

[Rion]

He's attempted to cover it up, he should be held in contempt. The head of the ATF and Holder should also face charges for their involvement, including manslaughter or murder.

 

[Assuredcw]

This link doesn't mention one thing that Attorney General authorized regarding the Fast and Furious situation:

ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore, I get a bad feeling reading about what went down, because the ATF guys appear to have "neglected to keep the AG informed" IOW they appear to have been insubordinate. Maybe they didn't feel they had to, since the policy was established under the previous AG, and they didn't want to give him an opportunity to learn about it and shut it down. I've been working long enough to know about the games that people play sometimes. Oh, and the "whistle-blowers" were treated unfairly? How about telling the Attorney General that there's a problem, instead of just heading straight to Congress (and the President's political opponents)?

It's a mess, but it appears to have resulted from incompetence and insubordination. I think AG Holder is motivated to deal with it on his own. He doesn't need Issa and his gang breathing down his neck, when none of this was his idea, and he appears to have been deliberately kept out of the loop IMO.

CitizenThom:

And yes, the Attorney General, like a partner in a law firm, is responsible for every decision made by lawyers under his supervision--even if he is just continuing a previous AG's policies. Just because the last guy didn't get caught doesn't mean you aren't on the hook.

Read the link. He didn't contribute to this in any way. You don't solve the problem by handicapping and interfering with the one person who can get rid of the troublemakers and clean this up. He needs to be given the opportunity to do his job.

 

[Assuredcw]

He's attempted to cover it up, he should be held in contempt. The head of the ATF and Holder should also face charges for their involvement, including manslaughter or murder.

If he isn't the one who authorized this, what makes you think he is covering anything up? He appears to be trying to hold on to classified information that he needs to do his job. There is a precedent involved (under Reagan), and Issa is trying to claim that AG Holder's behavior is so egregious as to make it necessary to waive that precedent. That's horse manure!

 

[Rion]

Go search my threads for F&F. It seems Holder knew far more than he admits far sooner than he says.

 

[Assuredcw]

Perhaps he doesn't want the public (that would include Congress) to know how much he knew and when he knew it? This would indeed be the case if the people he's investigating are nervous and are listening to what he's telling Congress (in attempts to avoid discovery)?

Issa should not be shaking down the AG for information that he needs to keep under his hat. They need to leave him alone!

 

[citizenthom]

Read the link. He didn't contribute to this in any way.

His lawyer employees refused to turn over lawfully-subpoenaed documents. That's his responsibility and his fault.

You don't solve the problem by handicapping and interfering with the one person who can get rid of the troublemakers and clean this up. He needs to be given the opportunity to do his job.

I seem to recall a certain Senator McCarthy making a similar claim as to why he shouldn't have to show anyone his supposed list of Communist collaborators.

 

[Assuredcw]

At MOST, people who REPORT to Holder did something they shouldn't. Any witchhunts need to be conducted by HOLDER not Congress, unless the whistleblowers can PROVE that Holder authorized these things. So far the conclusion is that he did not.

So Holder shouldn't have to tell Congress anything he doesn't want to tell them. And he hasn't. Good for him!

None of this was his idea, and if someone is trying to say Holder authorized something, let them prove that before we literally make a Federal case out of it.