Family: Black man shot by deputy held a sandwich, not a gun

[Yoko.52]

So by your own admission, you can't be honest with us even in a Christian forum.

How can we trust anything else you've posted ?

FYI, I served in the Marines in Okinawa back in 1970 and saw racism first hand. However, it wasn't the white men expressing it, but blacks who hated whites so much that groups of black men were jumping white men who were alone and beating them up, just because they were white. I was one of those white men. It only stopped when whites began to protect each other. Of course then we were called the racist.

If not for Christ coming into my life back in 1976, I probably would be still carrying the wounds of racism that were inflicted on me back then.

Jim I have learned the hard way to share very little of my real self online. if you haven't been burned in that manner congratulations you're very lucky.

 

[rjs330]

I'm curious: how many cases would it take for you consider there to be too many?
tulc(thinks a ball park amount will do)

Certainly more than >1%.

 

[rjs330]

I've never been in trouble. Maybe a misdemeanor for not having my dog leashed. Most times when I HAD to call the cops - THEY TRIED TO GET ME IN TROUBLE! I've witnessed them lie under oath, they're notorious for busting 'kids' with pot and keeping MOST of it. They DO plant evidence, and they lie a LOT! AND TOO OFTEN they get away with murder!

I'm 66 and have nothing good to say about them. I'm not black, I don't agree with defunding the police, or riots, etc.

Cops are the most arrogant, incompetent cowards I've ever encountered.

Patently false. More smear from someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

There have been agencies and I think still are that have had some corrupt part of their agency. New Orleans had been famous for that.

So to say there are no cops or no agencies that have had problems is also false. But in Comparison the men and women in law enforcement are by and large, rh overwhelming majority, are fine people who are hardworking, brave and very competent in their profession. A few bad apples cause problems for the rest of the thin blue line.

 

[Petros2015]

Where is the sandwich?

*nom-nom* "What sandwich?"

 

[Redwingfan9]

*nom-nom* "What sandwich?"

They found the gun, I'm curious as to whether the claimed sandwich was ever found. It's entirely possible the decedent had a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other. What kind of sandwich was it? Enquiring minds would like to know.

 

[Petros2015]

What kind of sandwich was it?

*burp* A delicious one.

 

[Yoko.52]

Patently false. More smear from someone who has no idea what he's talking about.

There have been agencies and I think still are that have had some corrupt part of their agency. New Orleans had been famous for that.

So to say there are no cops or no agencies that have had problems is also false. But in Comparison the men and women in law enforcement are by and large, rh overwhelming majority, are fine people who are hardworking, brave and very competent in their profession. A few bad apples cause problems for the rest of the thin blue line.

You know what there are no good cops...because the so called good ones cover for the bad ones.

 

[tulc]

Certainly more than >1%.

But you're fine with that amount?
tulc(is just making sure he understands rjs330's point)

 

[rjs330]

But you're fine with that amount?
tulc(is just making sure he understands rjs330's point)

No, it would be awesome if it were 0%.

It's NEVER fine when a serious mistake is made and someone loses a life or is seriously infjuted or and unlawful use if force is made.

And officers are being prosecuted for it. And they should be. Recognizing that it's such a minor issue does not absolve any individual of responsibility for his actions.

But it's also NEVER fine to make it sound like it's a rampant problem. That's dishonest.

 

[tulc]

No, it would be awesome if it were 0%.

...you're the one who suggested 1% wasn't too many.

It's NEVER fine when a serious mistake is made and someone loses a life or is seriously infjuted or and unlawful use if force is made.

But as long as it's only 1%, it's okay?

And officers are being prosecuted for it. And they should be. Recognizing that it's such a minor issue does not absolve any individual of responsibility for his actions.

Pretty sure it's not all that of a "minor issue" to the families of all those dead people. But hey, as long as people do exactly what a cop tells them to do as fast as they telll them to do it and don't shift their feet or lift their hands or "look like they were going to do anything" there shouldn't be a problem, right? Because after all "serve and protect" is only a slogan, not an actual thing.

But it's also NEVER fine to make it sound like it's a rampant problem.

US police kill about a thousand people a year. They've done so for a very long time. I'm not sure what your definition of "rampant" is but that sounds a lot like it to me. That's not counting the "tune ups" handed out by cops on an "as needed" basis that goes on in a lot of places.

That's dishonest.

yeah, because as long as only 1% of the people could end up dead or beat down, there's no real problem?
tulc(is just curious)

 

[Yoko.52]

No, it would be awesome if it were 0%.

It's NEVER fine when a serious mistake is made and someone loses a life or is seriously infjuted or and unlawful use if force is made.

And officers are being prosecuted for it. And they should be. Recognizing that it's such a minor issue does not absolve any individual of responsibility for his actions.

But it's also NEVER fine to make it sound like it's a rampant problem. That's dishonest.

Uh anyone raised or live for any great length of time in a black community it is a rampant problem

 

[rjs330]

...you're the one who suggested 1% wasn't too many.


But as long as it's only 1%, it's okay?



Pretty sure it's not all that of a "minor issue" to the families of all those dead people. But hey, as long as people do exactly what a cop tells them to do as fast as they telll them to do it and don't shift their feet or lift their hands or "look like they were going to do anything" there shouldn't be a problem, right? Because after all "serve and protect" is only a slogan, not an actual thing.



US police kill about a thousand people a year. They've done so for a very long time. I'm not sure what your definition of "rampant" is but that sounds a lot like it to me. That's not counting the "tune ups" handed out by cops on an "as needed" basis that goes on in a lot of places.


yeah, because as long as only 1% of the people could end up dead or beat down, there's no real problem?
tulc(is just curious)

1. No I didn't. Don't twist what I said.

2. Again not what I said. Don't twist what I said.

3. Do you understand context at all? Minor issue isn't about a specific event. It's about the entire process of police interaction. Are you of the thought that it could be 0%? Can you name ANY human activity that has a 0% error rate? Doctors certainly kill people at a higher rate than police do. And yet I don't hear your calling them out as a problem and saying what a big issue it is. Your being disingenuous.

4. It's still dishonest.

 

[tulc]

(snip)
3. Do you understand context at all? Minor issue isn't about a specific event. It's about the entire process of police interaction. Are you of the thought that it could be 0%? Can you name ANY human activity that has a 0% error rate? Doctors certainly kill people at a higher rate than police do. And yet I don't hear your calling them out as a problem and saying what a big issue it is. Your being disingenuous. (snip)

Quick question: how often have you or a friend been walking down the street and a doctor stops you and demands you (or your friend) do what he says about your health ("LOSE WEIGHT NOW!!") and if you don't do what he says right away he's allowed to send you to jail? and if you say something like "I don't have to do what you say." he's allowed to taser you? Or handcuff you? Or even (if he fears for his life) shoot you? 10 times? Maybe more? Again, just ball park will do.
tulc(is just curious)

 

[Petros2015]

yeah, because as long as only 1% of the people could end up dead or beat down, there's no real problem?
tulc(is just curious)

I guess it depends. If lethal crime was a virus with a 10% kill rate and you had a vaccine that had a 1% kill rate for most of the population, would you mandate it's use?

(that's not really the scenario here and there are a lot of moving parts and racial imbalances, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around things and the question myself, I'm not sure I have the answer even to the one that I just posed)

I guess the answer is you go with what you have, and you try really, really hard to improve that vaccine in the meantime, but it would be an ugly scenario if either the vaccine or the virus behaved differently in different ethnic groups, which seems to be the one that we are in.

Both racism and violence seem to be 'contagious' in some sense in the human population. Some consideration has been given to treating them with the same methods you would use against a viral agent.

VIOLENCE IS A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE - Contagion of Violence - NCBI Bookshelf

Broadly, from a Christian perspective, I suspect that sin is contagious - it almost always invites others in as part of it's effort to justify itself, and both those things fall into that category.

So here's what I think.

Nothing is perfect, and 1% isn't great. But it isn't *static* either.
You will never get it to 0%, but you can try.
And you HAVE to try. And you really have to try hard, and you have to keep trying no matter how low you get it. And when you see it, you have to in effect do some Contact Tracing.

Because if you don't, whenever and where ever you drop your guard (that "where ever" actually is really really important, following the contagion model, which I believe to be correct, or at least correct enough to do some good), that 1% will do this:

1.01
1.111
1.2221
1.34431
1.478741
1.626615
1.789277
1.968204
2.165025
2.381527
2.61968
2.881648
3.169813
3.486794

And that's basically how society falls.

 

[rjs330]

Quick question: how often have you or a friend been walking down the street and a doctor stops you and demands you (or your friend) do what he says about your health ("LOSE WEIGHT NOW!!") and if you don't do what he says right away he's allowed to send you to jail? and if you say something like "I don't have to do what you say." he's allowed to taser you? Or handcuff you? Or even (if he fears for his life) shoot you? 10 times? Maybe more? Again, just ball park will do.
tulc(is just curious)

Zero times. You know why? Cause it's an extremely rare circumstance. I have more if a chance of getting hit by a bus than your scenario happening.

I get it, your a liberal. And liberals love to attack the police over a tiny minority of incidents. Are you aware that over 2,000 police officers were injured this year due to these "mostly peaceful" protests turned riots?

All you pay attention to is whatever social media proclaims. You see a few incidents in the news and then have some sort of knee jerk reaction and decide to proclaim it's a pandemic or epidemic of problems. Thus adding to the LIE. The LIE that it's rampant. It's not.

 

[rjs330]

I guess it depends. If lethal crime was a virus with a 10% kill rate and you had a vaccine that had a 1% kill rate for most of the population, would you mandate it's use?

(that's not really the scenario here and there are a lot of moving parts and racial imbalances, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around things and the question myself, I'm not sure I have the answer even to the one that I just posed)

I guess the answer is you go with what you have, and you try really, really hard to improve that vaccine in the meantime, but it would be an ugly scenario if either the vaccine or the virus behaved differently in different ethnic groups, which seems to be the one that we are in.

Both racism and violence seem to be 'contagious' in some sense in the human population. Some consideration has been given to treating them with the same methods you would use against a viral agent.

VIOLENCE IS A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE - Contagion of Violence - NCBI Bookshelf

Broadly, from a Christian perspective, I suspect that sin is contagious - it almost always invites others in as part of it's effort to justify itself, and both those things fall into that category.

So here's what I think.

Nothing is perfect, and 1% isn't great. But it isn't *static* either.
You will never get it to 0%, but you can try.
And you HAVE to try. And you really have to try hard, and you have to keep trying no matter how low you get it. And when you see it, you have to in effect do some Contact Tracing.

Because if you don't, whenever and where ever you drop your guard (that "where ever" actually is really really important, following the contagion model, which I believe to be correct, or at least correct enough to do some good), that 1% will do this:

1.01
1.111
1.2221
1.34431
1.478741
1.626615
1.789277
1.968204
2.165025
2.381527
2.61968
2.881648
3.169813
3.486794

And that's basically how society falls.

I whole heartedly agree that more can be done to try and push this issue to Zero. With the incidents police are involved in it will nevet be zero. But I still believe with proper changes it could go lower than it is. BUT it takes MONEY. And money that the taxpayer is not willing to pay.

1. Pay cops more. Right now it's very hard to attract the best people for this extremely difficult profession. One thing we see in areas where there is more corruption is the low pay requiring cops to work second jobs it try to get more overtime. Agencies have HAD to lower their standards in order to get people. And with lower standards you get lower people. People that really shouldn't be cops. Like gang members.
You want better people, pay them well enough so they can live where they work and have a few bucks left over to have fun.

2. Spend money on training. Most agencies training budgets are very limited. If you had more ongoing training for officers it would lower incidents. More training on deescalation. More use if force training. More self defense training. But all that costs loads of money. Because cops work 24 hours a day, you have to have enough personnel to cover when cops are at training. You have to pay overtime for training. You have to pay the instructors.

But most communities aren't willing to fund these things. Instead they want to defund police and cut personnel. It's patently stupid. Cops need more money, not less. Pay them more to attract the best type of people. Pay for the training.

In the majority of areas the cops are good people. They are great men and women who do what they do to serve their community. Not just to earn a paycheck. But there are areas like New Orleans and others who pay so low they can't attract the good people they need.

3. Reform the unions. Put into place where unions have less power to protect bad cops. Most cops that go bad and hit the headlines have probably had other problems. But the department couldn't get rid of them due to the unions.

4. Have civilians on use of force and complaint boards. These civilians should be trained in law enforcement and policy, so they know what they are doing. Then they could have input into investigations and complaints.

 

[Petros2015]

But most communities aren't willing to fund these things. Instead they want to defund police and cut personnel. It's patently stupid.

Absolutely and lots of great points and suggestions. "Defund the Police!" is a ridiculous unhelpful knee-jerk response. To the best of my knowledge, only in very limited specific situations where corruption became rife (Camden New Jersey, I think) was it used temporarily and the police were eventually reformed.

Camden, New Jersey - Wikipedia

There were 23 murders in Camden in 2017, the fewest in the city in three decades, part of a significant decline in violent crime since the city disbanded its municipal police department in 2012 and replaced it with a county-level police department.

Incidentally, I attended a wedding in Camden a few(?) years prior to 2012.
It was completely unreal, like 3rd world unreal.
So I am glad (amazed) that they are back on their feet and doing well.
Otherwise, I was not planning on returning without an armored vehicle.