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Featured Faith without Works is Dead

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Bro.T, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    I have ran to a dead end on this topic. Even though this is not the topic at hand. I'm headed back to the topic at hand, Faith without works is Dead in the KJV, peace in Jesus mighty name.
     
  2. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Again you must work unto the end. (1 Peter 1:15-17) (v.15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all Manner of conversation; (v.16) Because it is written, BE YE HOLY; FOR I AM HOLY. (V.17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: It says you had better be holy, because God is holy. And it also says that ye call on the Father, but you had better remember that he is going to without respect of person judge every man according to his work. So you better pass your time here on earth in fear.

    In (Rev. 20:12-13) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Who are you allowing to teach you that you need not work to serve the Lord of this bible? (v.13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and dead and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Don’t allow anyone to deceive you! You will be judged according to your works.

    In (Rev. 22:11-14) (v.11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still: In other words be whatever you choose to be. (v.12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. How many times must we read, that you will be judged according to your works? (v.13) I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (v.14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
     
  3. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, like you said "...the changing of words can affect that understanding."

    The KJV changed the words.

    I appreciate your kind and gentle spirit, Bro.T.
    Would you like more details on why I think the KJV changed the words there?
     
  4. Bro.T

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    To be fair I just post to another that I have ran to a end on this KJV topic. I try to not go into other topic to much at all. But if you post I will read your thoughts on the KJV topic.
     
  5. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    I think there may be a way to bring both ideas, the KJV and which commandments to keep.

    The OP mentions keeping the Sabbath.

    In the book of Acts, Paul meets with James and other leaders in Jerusalem after starting many churches in the gentile world.

    They say that they know that Paul walks orderly, keeping the law.

    But then they say that they wrote to the gentiles to observe no such thing, just the four commands they wrote about earlier.

    That phrase about observing no such thing is in the kjv, but not most modern versions.

    If we trust the KJV, then I think we would want to just stick with the four commandments.
     
  6. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Well, keep in mind what was said in James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

    Notice, James says the royal law according to the scriptures, which will bring us back to Exodus 20: 1-17. Also notice James only name a few commandments. This doesn't means that's all the you have to keep, that's why James says according to the scriptures. Another example dealing with the commandments, Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Again, Paul only name a handful commandments, but notice he say in verse 9 and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. Paul knows there other commandments he didn't name.
    And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

    Another example, Jesus said in Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    So Jesus said, “but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,” No matter what you read in the Bible, these commandments have to be kept to enter into life, or you will be judge by them. Now let’s read further into what Jesus is saying here in Matthew… Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Again, Jesus only name a handful Commandments, but Jesus says in total keep the Commandments. This includes the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday).

    This also include,Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (which includes Easter, Christmas, going to church on Sunday and any other pagan or tradition of men that may cause another God to be worship) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:3-8)

    There was some other issues in Acts, dealing with others law with the Gentiles. But keeping the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week and the rest of the Royal Law we all have the to keep.
     
  7. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Well, of course we want to remember that James and those around him say that that they told the gentiles to observe no such thing, save only the four commandments.

    Peace!
     
  8. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick reminder, works without faith is equally dead.
     
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Two thousand years and nothing has changed. As Paul said, we are free to eat meat offered to idols, but we are not to use our freedom to harm a brother with a weaker conscience; in the same way, James focused in Acts on affirming that Gentiles are not to be brought under the Law, but were to resfrain from a few items that might harm their Jewish brothers in Christ.

    ... and just as in Paul's day, there are those that would call all Christians to exchange the GRACE that has been purchased for us by the blood of Christ, and place us under the yoke of a Law ... and not even the actual Law of God, but a law of their making carefully picked and chosen from among the Laws of God. I will not join the "foolish" Galatians and allow these men to bewitch me with their siren call back to a dead covenant that could never save, but was always just there to teach us of our need for a savior.
     
  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'm remindedof the passage that talks about where the Spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty!

    Liberty to sin? No,liberty to keep God's instructions in the way that Jesus and his apostles taught.
     
  11. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, being led by the Spirit of God who now indwells each believer and not in a temple of stone.
     
  12. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    That was a debate in Acts to deal with Gentiles. When Paul became more of an apostle to the Gentiles things where more clear concerning the law. But let's take a look some at this in Acts 15: 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. That was right because in the scriptures it’s written in Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

    Now Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, no one else. This should of been the end of it. Jesus says in Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    But Let's skip down and see what James says, 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. This means not to do these things.

    If a Gentile believe this is all they have to do to get in the kingdom of God, then there's no need for the rest of the bible. Paul taught the Gentiles to keep the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, but to today, Sunday is kept. A day that's not in the Bible. The Sabbath day on the seventh day is the only day that had a name. The only day to attend church. Let’s skip down to verse 24, Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

    See Paul was just getting started dealing with the Gentile, all this was cleared up as time went on. Now, Paul says in Romans 7 Now, Paul said in (Rom. 7:7, 12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
     
  13. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    I really hope you don't believe only four commandments is going to get you the kingdom of God. Remember Paul says in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Again Paul say in 1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. It's a lot of sin out there, only four commandments, not likely to work.
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    ... ummm even the 613 mitzvah are not going to get you into the Kingdom of God.

    [John 3:3-8 NASB]
    3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
    4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

    [Romans 10:1-13 NASB] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
    5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

    [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
     
  15. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there are four commandments that we need to be concerned about, I think there is really just one that fulfills all the others.

    Love your neighbor as yourself is the commandment that fulfills all the other commandments.

    We no longer fulfill the commandment to keep the Sabbath by doing special actions on the seventh day. We fulfill it by loving our neighbor.

    **********
    But about the phrase
    "... observe no such thing, save only..."

    The phrase is found in the kjv, but not in modern translations.

    If you object to it, I believe your objection would be with the KJV.
     
  16. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    As I tell my friends, I am working on loving my neighbor as myself. Once I have mastered that commandment I will start worrying about the others.
     
  17. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    When I talked with people about this in the past, they often want to bring up the idea that the greatest commandment is to love God. And that's true!

    But that's kind of the paradox, isn't it? How is it that the second commandment fulfills all the rest?

    I think it's because you show how much you love God, who you can't see, by loving your neighbor, the one who's in your face :D
     
  18. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Precisely!
     
  19. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    This is true, but you didn't quote the other one, which Jesus says in Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

    (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

    Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


    I don't believe there's one scriptures or verse in the Bible that do away with the Sabbath Day, infact that's the only commandment that starts off with Remember.
     
  20. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Those are misunderstood verses less start off with born again. All that you quoted are lesson within itself. Don't harden your heart, let the Bible speak plainly.


    You didn't explain anything about being born again you just quoting. Born again is a change in the body, not the mind. Now, let's look this again in John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

    Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

    John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God. Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information. He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When he mentions spirit He means exactly that. Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Notice He made a difference between flesh and spirit. Ask yourself that question, was you born flesh or spirit?

    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Notice He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

    Notice what Jesus does in these next few verses. Remember, this is after His resurrection.

    John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family. I'll stop here, because this is a lesson within itself.
     
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