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Featured Faith without Works is Dead

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Bro.T, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Religiot

    Religiot Well-Known Member

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    Okay, well I'm very happy to hear that, and I'm sorry that I took it that way.
    Never.
    All the time--His laws are a revelation of Him, His will: what He wants communicates Who He is; therefore, it follows, that as God gradually reveals more of Himself to the world, that more of His laws would be communicated and understood--the greatest revelation thus far is Christ Himself, Who magnifies God's law, and shows the true origins of it's manifestation, love.
    Yes.
    Since the foundation of the world is He, both the Priest of God and His sacrifice.
    Fair enough.
    I must restrain the detail based on your questions, otherwise, my responses will be too long.

    --But feel free to ask more questions, cause I truly believe that we can get to conclusions much faster that way.
     
  2. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Well, again not being sarcastic, doesn't the law require burning certain items in certain conditions? I thought it was houses but I think now it might be clothes. The house gets dismantled, I believe.

    Doesn't the law say somewhere that you shall not add to it?
    Also, if God makes additions to his commandments, does he also make subtractions from them?

    If Christ has always been high priest, what is the change or translation referred to in Hebrews where it speaks up the priesthood being changed or translated?
     
  3. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    You and the other people fail to realize I didn't write the Bible. Now Paul said in Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

    Now lets understand and reason together, Paul just gave us a run down on condition of sins. People who are behaving in such manner will not inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God, even those who are unclean. Being unclean does not mean a person doesn’t wash up, we are not talking about soap and water. We are talking about defiling the body, with unholiness or unGodliness. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:11,12
     
  4. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Jesus said in (John 17:3-4) (v.3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (v.4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Yes Jesus did much work. He is the captain of our salvation and the captain is leading by his example, by his works.

    Paul said in (Phil. 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Now if you need not work, then why is Paul telling you to “WORK” out your own salvation, and pay close attention because he also says with “fear and trembling”.

    Jesus said in (Matt. 19:16-17) (v.16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? That’s what we are all trying to obtain correct, eternal life? (v.17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Now if you want to enter into eternal life you most keep the commandments. Sounds like a little work to me.
     
  5. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Here is the rest of the story: Jesus was addressing a Jew who wanted to earn eternal life. "The young man said to him, “I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws. [Clearly, he kept the commandments of the Law] What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But when the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he was very rich." Matthew 19:20-22 My Bible, unlike yours (apparently) says that Jesus told the young man that he must divest himself of his wealth, which of course He knew that he wouldn't do.

    I would suggest that you choose a translation other than the King James so that, instead of God's Word being chopped up into separate verses (that were added to the Bible centuries after the texts were written), that His Word is understood in context in the language we use every day. Modern translations are much clearer in interpreting the Word of God than a 410-year-old version in a language that nobody on Earth uses any more, leading to one misinterpretation after another.
     
  6. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I don't know why I have to keep writing this again...

    Here is the rest of the story...

    "Now someone came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?” He said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied, “Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.” The young man said to him, "I have wholeheartedly obeyed all these laws."

    So it's obvious from Scripture that the young man had kept all the commandments yet Jesus told him that there was more to do. So according to Scripture keeping all the commandments isn't enough.

    Philippians 2:12-13, "So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God." It really distresses me that you chop up Scripture to mean something different than what the Bible clearly says. You don't work out your own salvation -- an incredible denial of grace -- God brings forth both the desire and effort.
     
  7. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Let's continue the story I believe there's more to understand here. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19: 20, 21) This young man kept these commandments from his youth up. This includes the Sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday). This also include,Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (this includes Easter, Christmas, going to church on Sunday and any other pagan or tradition of men that may cause another God to be worship)

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:3-8).

    Another thing to understand, the young man was rich, and was told to sell all he had and follow Jesus. If the young would have did it, he would of walk around with Jesus and the apostles teaching, healing and raising the dead. When you really understand what you reading you will see that letting go riches was his problem.

    But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19: 22-26).

    The thing to understand at this point of the story, is don't put yourself in this position in life with riches and great possession, and if riches increase do not set your heart on them or it will be a struggle.

    If you doing all these things according to the word of God, then praise the Lord, you in good shape.
     
  8. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    I'm sorry my friend but the old KVJ I will remain using. Many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19). At the end of the day english is english. I don't speak english correct, but I have understanding of the word of God, and that comes from God. Not the book. Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (proverbs 3:5)
     
  9. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Paul said in (Heb. 6:10-11) (v.10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (v.11) And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to full assurance of hope unto the end: God is not going to forget your works, nor your labor of love toward his name. But you need to show these same works diligence to have full assurance of hope unto the end. Hope of what? Hope of eternal life. To the end of what? To the end of your life or to the coming of the Lord. You must work until the end! Jesus said in (Rev. 2:26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    As you keep the Commandments, Statues and his Judgements for a while, until thou have learn them. Then you can work in the vineyard and teach people the word of God.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    One thing that can happen if people use only the KJV is that they can sometimes be unaware that they have Incorporated "KJV-isms" into their theology.

    One example is the phrase that sin is transgression of the law. This is then used to prove that the law must still be in effect, otherwise there could be no sin.

    But a better modern translation of that phrase is probably that sin is lawlessness.

    This does not imply that the law of Moses is still in effect but rather that there is still a law of some sort in effect. And most everyone agrees with that!

    Peace!
     
  11. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    You wrote, "Many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine." And you think that this criticism doesn't apply to the King James version? Let me explain a few things to you...

    1) The King James Bible didn't merely translate the Bible (whatever that means!). There were earlier English translations that they relied upon, as well as a limited number of early texts. It is impossible to create a "word-for-word" translation from ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. There are words that can have multiple meanings depending on context, verb tenses that have no precise English equivalent, and idioms that have no precise equivalent in English. For example, "It's blowing like hell, so I expect that soon it will be raining cats and dogs". Most modern English speakers understand this perfectly, but it would seem to be insanity to a non-English speaker.

    2) Translators throughout history, including the scribes of days gone by, added their own parts to the Bible and deleted others, made copying errors, and in general did what fallible human beings do. The King James Bible is not a word-for-word translation, nor is any Bible. Parts were added and subtracted over the many centuries. For example, Romans 8:1 In the King James it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The last part of the verse was added to the text; it doesn't appear in any of the earliest sources. Modern Bibles have correctly written this verse as "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (without the condition added).

    3) Now I want to be as kind and gentle as possible when I write this... Judging by your post you are not very well versed in the modern English language. You wrote, "I don't speak english correct, but I have understanding of the word of God, and that comes from God. Not the book." How can you have an understanding of the Word of God using a translation into a form of English that nobody has used as their primary language for centuries? Even people that are well-versed in English mistranslate the King James in their minds, making it say what they want it to say. As my "signature" explains, "Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it."

    Luke 14:7-11 (KJV):
    7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.

    8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

    9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

    10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

    11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Would you please explain to me what this parable is actually saying? Here is something that will help you...

    "When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: “When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

    Luke 14:7-11 (NIV)

    I know that some say that the KJV is the only true English translation, but there is no sound basis for saying that. It feels "religious" but nothing substantiates that theory. At the end of the day -- idiom! -- 17th Century English is not the equivalent of modern English. English, like every other language, changes over time. Many aspects of English have changed over the centuries so, as my example above shows, we no longer think/read/write in early 17th Century Englyshe. As shown above, that includes you, for thou doest not write in thy post using the Englyshe of scores, nay eons, of days of yore.

    "Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the Lord and shun evil" Proverbs 3:7
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  12. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    My friend, I'll try to explain the best way I can concerning the KJV. I understand and agree that the KJV is not perfect. I have read sentence that sound incomplete and typo. But I have also read in the Bible how God correct things in other places in the book. I also understand that there Bibles written before the KJV. Here's a little history....The Protestant clergy approached the new King in 1604 and announced their desire for a new translation to replace the Bishop's Bible first printed in 1568. They knew that the Geneva Version had won the hearts of the people because of its excellent scholarship, accuracy, and exhaustive commentary. However, they did not want the controversial marginal notes (proclaiming the Pope an Anti-Christ, etc.) Essentially, the leaders of the church desired a Bible for the people, with scriptural references only for word clarification or cross-references.

    This "translation to end all translations" (for a while at least) was the result of the combined effort of about fifty scholars. They took into consideration: The Tyndale New Testament, The Coverdale Bible, The Matthews Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, and even the Rheims New Testament. The great revision of the Bishop's Bible had begun. From 1605 to 1606 the scholars engaged in private research. From 1607 to 1609 the work was assembled. In 1610 the work went to press, and in 1611 the first of the huge (16 inch tall) pulpit folios known today as "The 1611 King James Bible" came off the printing press.

    When King James had the Bible translated he appointed 54 scholars to do the work instead of religious people. This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning. In other words he made the Bible say the exact same thing, only in another language. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). The Lord knew that his people would not always remain in their own land, speaking Hebrew, so he had Isaiah to prophesy that he would have his word put into other languages.

    Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1).

    The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him. (Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.

    Have you ever look at one of those pictures that you have to stare for a while until you see what it really is in the picture. When you first look at the pic it have line drawn in it or something. Then suddenly after seeing it, you see what it really is. That's kind of how the word of God works to a certain point. So the KJV is my path and I tell you, a different translation will not make a difference. If God is not with you, you will see nothing, no matter how many different Bible translation you read. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29: 11,12). All of this I'm saying is spiritual and you have to able to see this to understand it and to believe it.
     
  13. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Let's take a look at that. Paul say in 1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

    If you righteous you walking in the law, other words keeping the law (Commandments, statutes and Judgements). Paul say in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin. It have to a difference between the saint and the sinners. Paul say in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!

    The animal sacrificial laws are the laws that nail to the cross, not the royal laws.
     
  14. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    When you say,
    "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.)"

    that's the very issue I'm talking about. The KJV alters it from the original language (or maybe that was the best way to say it 400 or 500 years ago).

    In today's English, "lawlessness" gives a better sense of the original language.

    Would you like me to go into more detail?
     
  15. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not going to respond to all of your post, as it meanders all over the place. However, I will respond to this: "When King James had the Bible translated he appointed 54 scholars to do the work instead of religious people. This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning. In other words he made the Bible say the exact same thing, only in another language." In a sentence, that is impossible. There is never a direct translation from one language to another -- that's why they're different languages -- so your statement that "This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning" is meaningless. Words have different meanings, verbs have different tenses, idioms are different, etc. You and others have somehow elevated the single, imperfect translation known as the King James version, a.k.a., the Authorized Version, into the only accurate translation, with no basis other than a statement like "God directed it" or something similar. One can just as easily say the same thing about the pre-1611 translations and those that followed.

    Even if the King James was an exact, word-for-word translation -- it isn't! -- the English language itself has changed considerably in the last 400 years. Nobody speaks or writes in the form of English used over 400 years ago. Unless you're a scholar of that form of English there are bound to be errors of interpretation. Now, I don't mean to personally insult you and others, but it is clear that your knowledge of modern English is faulty. An example: you wrote "I have read sentence that sound incomplete and typo." What does that mean? Did you mean to write "I have read a sentence [singular?] that sounds incomplete and 2) there is also a [singular?] typo"? If 21st Century English is difficult for you, how can you possibly understand a form of Englyshe that nobody speaks, reads, or writes any more?

    Finally, if you have spiritual understanding (as you claim), what does this mean: "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed" Isaiah 29:11-12 (your selection above) However, this is actually Isaiah 29:10-11!! Please let us know your thoughts...

    => SPOILER ALERT <= Here is the same selection (plus verse 9 of the same paragraph) from a modern translation -- the NET:

    "You will be shocked and amazed!
    You are totally blind!
    They are drunk, but not because of wine;
    they stagger, but not because of beer.

    For the Lord has poured out on you
    a strong urge to sleep deeply.
    He has shut your eyes (you prophets),
    and covered your heads (you seers).

    To you this entire prophetic revelation is like words in a sealed scroll. When they hand it to one who can read and say, “Read this,” he responds, “I can’t, because it is sealed.” Or when they hand the scroll to one who can’t read and say, “Read this,” he says, “I can’t read.”

    ... yet you included verse 10, incorrectly writing that it's verse 11!

    Finally, as I have said before, reading/hearing the King James version may make you feel holy or religious or ..? but the original languages have none of that feeling incorporated into them. They were simple languages, meant to be clearly understood by the people of that time. The same principle should apply today. Recent translations, written in the language we (including you) use every day of our lives, are the clearest, most accurate, and most importantly, understandable versions that we have.

    1 Corinthians 14:32-33, NET: "Indeed, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, for God is not characterized by disorder but by peace. [new paragraph] As in all the churches of the saints...

    The same verses in the KJV...

    32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

    33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  16. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    There are quite a few people who post on this forum claiming that they understand the King James (archaic Englyshe) Version clearly, yet cannot not write coherent, modern English. Would somebody explain to me how that is possible?
     
  17. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    This is talking about Israel the true Jews which are in captivity to this day, but it affects the world, why?. Because Israel are the priest of God even to this day. The God of Israel (The God of the Bible) pronounced a sentence upon Israel. He told them that if they would not keep his laws and abide by his rules, he would curse them, telling them exactly what would befall them. Israel broke his laws and did not keep his rules, so the Lord cursed them as he said he would. (See Deuteronomy 28th chapter). In the 28th chapter, it should be understood that a lot of these things happened over the course of many years, continuing down to our time. This is off topic so I'm not going to into this too much.

    For what purpose did the Lord choose the children of Israel? (Exodus 19: 1-6) Let's look at the 5th & 6th vs.; "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6th vs.) and ye shall be unto me a Kingdom of Priest, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Take a look at what Peter was telling the Jews in 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Keep in ming nine tribes was already in captivity at this time. But Paul says in Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. If you really understand what you reading then, know other nation can pick up the priesthood, but again that's another lesson for another time. Here's a situation that refers to Isaiah 29: 10-11. Let's go into Acts
    26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Notice, the angel sent him to Philip and didn't teach him his self. Because this is the protocol. Notice, also this is after the death of Jesus. This Ethiopia was a Hebrew Israelite from captivity. It takes time and lessons to see this hold thing clear, my friend. Understand, the Bible interpret itself. The protocol has been broken.

    This is spiritual for you to see this day, because I didn't know you was going to ask me to explain this Isaiah 29.




     
  18. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    I think I understand. I'm just showing you the proper way to understand the Bible, not the English writing. If I could understand the way the KJV is written then many others can to. I'm here to help, that's all. The Bible interpret itself, many don't understand that and the changing of words can affect that understanding. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy, 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11).

    The Catholics like other religious groups might have meant well in their attempt to rewrite the scripture but remember what John said in Revelation 22: about adding and taking away from the word. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
     
  19. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    You wrote, "I think I understand. I'm just showing you the proper way to understand the Bible, not the English writing. If I could understand the way the KJV is written then many others can to. I'm here to help, that's all. The Bible interpret itself, many don't understand that and the changing of words can affect that understanding. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy..."

    I hope that I'm not being too critical here but this must be said: it is apparent to me that many people who claim to clearly understand the early 17th Century English of the King James Bible aren't entirely fluent with 21st Century English. You wrote, "The Bible interpret itself, many don't understand that and the changing of words can affect that understanding." My English teachers would have "red-lined" that sentence! Perhaps you meant "The Bible interprets itself. Many don't understand that the changing of words can affect that understanding." This may seem like "nit-picking" but if a person can't write grammatically-correct English, how can s/he possibly understand the Englyshe of the King James Bible?

    Also, you referred to the "changing of words" which to me is the tired, old argument that somehow or other the KJV words are perfect, a quality that modern translations lack. There is no basis for that statement! Even the KJV translators wrote that their work wasn't perfect. They wrote that they based their work in part on existing translations and expected their work to be modified over time.

    IMHO it really requires a scholar to properly interpret the English of 400+ years ago, an ability that few have. Many things have changed in the English language over the years, so it is easy to misinterpret the meaning of the archaic language.

    As my recently added "signature" says: Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it. It is very, very easy to do this by self-interpreting Scripture in what is now virtually a foreign language.

    As I have said in other posts 1) there are now many more examples of writing in the Biblical languages than there ever were, especially compared to the limited number of texts available 400 years ago and 2) the art/science of translation has vastly improved over the centuries. Therefore, the Bible translations that we have today are the best that have ever been, both in their accuracy of language and in their comprehension of meaning.

    The King James Bible sounds and reads beautifully, unlike the common languages in which the Bible books were written. The source documents were written in simple languages: ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. They were meant to be heard and read by common people. Jesus was a common man -- a carpenter -- not a member of the elite. He didn't speak or write in florid prose but in the language of the common people. All one has to do, for example, is to imagine large crowds of common people sitting on a hillside listening to Him, and not clearly understanding what He was saying because it wasn't in their normal language.

    The King James is NOT The Bible, it is a TRANSLATION, just as there were earlier translations than the KJV and, of course, many later translations. Perhaps people like to feel "religious" because it is written in archaic Englyshe, or that it was THE English Bible for many years, but neither of those have any value when learning/understanding God's clear message to humanity.

    Now of course this has nothing to do with the OP. Mea culpa!
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    [Hebrews 11:3-7 NASB]
    3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
    5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
    6 And without faith it is impossible to please [GOD] for he who comes to God must believe that He is and [that] He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
    7 By faith Noah, being warned [by God] about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.​

    ... so what does this tell us about WORKS without FAITH?

    [Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB]
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
    Thus the reason that the GIFT of God comes before our walking in the good WORKS that God has prepared for us.

    James is correct. If you have no walk in good works, you should question whether or not you have received the GIFT of grace. However works to gain faith will just lead to Matthew 7:23. :( [ask the Pharisees].
     
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