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Featured Faith without Works is Dead

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Bro.T, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    The christian world we living in today doesn’t seem to understand what type of works this is. This is not the works of the law, meaning animal sacrificial laws, which was nail to the cross. Paul explain this in; Hebrews 10: (v.1) For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (v.9) Then said he, (Jesus) Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second. (v.10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments. (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins.

    Let’s take a look at both laws in one verse, the Royal law (Ten commandments) and the animal sacrificial law in Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. This law is part of the commandments. Paul, is quoting Moses, let's take a look. Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:26). So when you broke the royal law (commandments), you have to do the works of the law, and this was animal sacrifice.

    So now Jesus is the High Priest, no need to deal with that law any more for now. The first works you have to put in for is repentance. You have to repent. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (Act 3: 19).

    So let’s take a look at some of these works of repentance, and what you have to base your change from. Now, Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. In (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, let's see what the Lord had specially written for you. (See exodus 20: 1-17). (1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    So now you may see some changes you have to make in your life. Let’s take a look at something Peter says, in Acts 1: 36-38 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16):
     
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  2. grumix8

    grumix8 New Member Supporter

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    Faith itself is A work and everything you is true but if you doon't have love it doesn't work ;D.
     
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  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Mosaic Law contains important foreshadows of what is to come, so we should live in a way that testifies about what is to come by living in obedience to it. A fractal pattern is one that is structurally the same and every scale, so we should seek by faith to model every aspect of our lives after the heavenly pattern by living in obedience to the Mosaic law. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother keeping Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. Jesus set aside our disobedience in order to establish our obedience.

    In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved shaving his head, and which involved making sin offerings (Numbers 6), and in Acts 21:20-24, he was on his way to pay for the offerings of others who had taken a similar vow in order disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Mosaic Law, and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the law, and it that had no longer been in effect, then it would have had no power to prevent Jesus from being a priest if he were here on earth.

    All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. This means that the royal law is inclusive of all of the laws that God has given, not to just the Ten Commandments.

    In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, so the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to any of the laws that God has given, and people who rely on works of the law are under a curse because they are not relying on the Book of the Law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are no of faith in God, unlike the Mosaic Law.

    In Acts 2:38, when Paul told his Jewish audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Mosaic Law was how they knew what sin is and what they should be repenting from disobeying.

    If someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to God's other commands, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of God's other commands.

    The first five commandments are in regard to how to love in our vertical relationships while the last five are in regard to how to love in our horizontal relationships because the principles behind the first five parallel the principles behind the last five, but in any case, all of the laws that God has given can be categorized as how to love God or how to love our neighbor, not just then of them. It seems like you recognize this by including the command against eating certain meats, which isn't one of the Ten Commandments, though it is not clear to me then why you are specifically referring to them.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to God's Word, under the old covenant you have correctly pointed out here that there were many "shadow laws" that were all prophetic in nature pointing to things to come. So these shadows were to teach us or prophecy to us of those things to which they point to. So under the old covenant for example the "shadow laws" for remission of sins pointed to the coming of the Messiah in Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant based on better promises according to Hebrews 8:1-6.

    The earthly Sanctuary along with the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for remission of sins, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and Feasts all pointing to Jesus and God's work of salvation for mankind on behalf of man. So under the old covenant God's people looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah while in the new covenant today God's people look back to the coming of Christ and the fulfillment of these prophetic laws which are now continued in the body of Christ to which they all pointed to (the body of Christ) *Colossians 2:17; John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-17; Hebrews 10:1-17.

    What this means for us today under the new covenant is that there is no more "shadow laws" of an earthly Sanctuary, no more laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not more animal sacrifices and sin offerings which are now fulfilled in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

    Jesus is now our great high Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2 who is also God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:14-24; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:10.

    Jesus as our true sacrifice for the sins of the world are also foretold in the "shadow laws" of the Passover and Feast of unleavened bread where it is written in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:[8], Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    As can be shown in this scripture Paul is not telling us to continue keeping the old covenant Passover he is telling us that what the shadow Feast of the Passover pointed to and that is as Colossians 2:17 says is the body of Christ. The Passover was the shadow pointing to the body of Christ that has now arrived and is fulfilled in Christ and continued in Christ in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

    Paul is saying we keep the Passover today by accepting Christ as our Passover accepting Jesus as our lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Not by going back to the old covenant laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings to which all pointed to the body of Christ.
    Paul is not telling us here to go out and make animal sacrifices for sin as that would be to deny the very Christ to who the sin offerings pointed to. Paul according to the scriptures became all things to all people that he might win them to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). As to Acts of the Apostles 18:18 being in reference to a Nazarite vow as referred to in Numbers 6 this suggestion would be unlikely as the shaving of the hair must have been shaven and burned in the temple, under the caldron in which the peace-offerings were boiled as well as offer other sacrifices, (Numbers 6:13-18). It was the custom, it seems, on the accomplishment of vows, for persons to shave their heads, Acts 21:23-24.

    Even in regards to Acts of the Apostles 22:20-24 the reason why Paul was talking the Nazarite vow in regards to Numbers 6 was not because there was a requirement for him to do so just the same as there was no requirement for Timothy to be circumcised in Acts of the Apostles 16:1-3 as the Christian council of Jerusalem already decreed that circumcision was not a requirement for salvation in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2; 20-21. Timothy it says in Acts of the Apostles was circumcision not because he had to but as the scriptures teach because of the problems encountered by the Jews who were biased against Paul thinking Paul was teaching God's laws were abolished *Acts of the Apostles 16:3.

    Likewise Paul did not take a Nazarite vow because he had to but he took it so that the Jews did not think he was teaching to do away with God's laws *Acts of the Apostles 21:21. So Paul's motive for taking the Nazarite vow in Acts of the Apostles 21:20-24 was to remove the bias and hostility of the Jews so he became all things to all people so he could win them to Christ *1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

    Paul and the four men did these things out of love, to avoid causing unnecessary offense to their Jewish brothers and sisters. That’s what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols. It is not sinful to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but if it causes your brother offense, then don’t do it. Paul and the four men took a Nazirite vow and Paul had Timothy circumcised, because of the Jews – out of love for them, to avoid causing unnecessary offense to give himself opportunity to preach the gospel.

    So was Paul wrong in taking the Nazarite vow? Possibly but not necessarily. According to the scriptures and God's providence we are told that Paul in fact never completed the Nazarite vow. At the end of the completion of the Nazarite vow a sacrifice was made (Numbers 6:13-17), the candidate’s hair was cut and put on the altar, and the priest did the final task of completing the sacrificial process, which ended the vow (v20) on the eighth day. This section concludes with the statement, “This is the law of the Nazirite who vows his offering to the LORD in accordance with his separation, in addition to whatever else he can afford. He must fulfill the vow he has made, according to the law of the Nazirite”(6:21).

    According to the scriptures...

    Numbers 6:10-18 [10] And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: [11] And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day. [12] And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled. [13] And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: [14] And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings, [15] And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings. [16] And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering: [17] And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering. [18] And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

    As you can see, animals sacrifices have no part of the Nazarite vow until the 8th day. God in His providence prevented this from happening as we read in the scriptures...

    Act 21:27-30 [27] And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, [28] Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. [29] For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple. [30] And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

    Yet still during the 7th day Paul was taken out of the Temple and did not return to complete His vow or the animal sacrifices needed for completing a Nazarite vow.

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  5. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

    When James says that "faith without works is dead," he does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates or shows that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
     
  6. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Member

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    James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what kind of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

    It's not just any type of work that justifies but James clearly points out that the type work that does justify is obedience in doing God's will. In Abraham's case, his obedient works in moving from his land, home and kindred to offering Isaac (Hebrews 11:8,17). For us today under the NT law it is obedience to God's will in believing, repenting, confession and submitting to water baptism, (John 8:24; Luke 13:3. Matthew 10:32-33; Mark 16:16). In Romans 6:16-18 Paul put "obeying from the heart" then one is freed from sin/justified. Hence Paul and James are 100% in agreement that obeying God does bring about justification.

    So faith without obedience to God's will is dead. There is no case of one while continually living in rebellion and disobedience to God's will yet unconditionally justified anyway. In Romans 6 Paul points out that even though the Christian is saved by grace that does not give the Christian the right to contiune to sin/live in disboedience. Paul goes on to point out if one is not obeying God he is serving sin unto death (lost) rather than serving "obedience unto righteousness" (saved). So justification is a combination of BOTH God's grace and man's obedience.

    Since justification apart from obedience to God's will is impossible, then:

    1) Romans 4:5 or Ephesians 2:9 do not eliminate obedience to God's will but these verses eliminate the flawless, perfect work of law keeping the OT required to be justified and eliminate works of merit. To have any verse eliminate obedience to God's will from becoming justified creates logical, obvious contradictions.

    2) though there are many examples of men being obedient to God's will in the OT and NT (as Abraham) not a single time is their obedience said to have earned/merited God's free gift of justification. Obedience is meeting a precondition God has placed upon His free gift of justication therefore earns nothing. Luke 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." One not doing God's will is derelict in doing their duty. And for those who do what is their duty in obeying God are still "unprofitable" for one will not be perfectly sinless in carrying out God's will therefore still in need of grace. So again, justification is by BOTH God's grace for man will not be perfectly sinless in carrying out God's will and man's obedience is necessary to prevent man from "serving sin unto death" but instead be a servant of "obedience unto righteousness".

    3) the type of works one does in this life will be the very basis God uses to determine what judgement/sentence each person will receive on judgement day, Romans 2:5-11; Revelation 20:12-13.


    No obedience to God's will = no justification.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  7. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes. And yet, only together with God can those changes be made, which is why, by faith, we enter relationship or communion with God first of all. The New Covenenat prophecy of Jer 31:33:
    I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.”


    We cannot love as we should without being in Him and He in us. That union is the very essence and basis of man’s justice or righteousness.
    Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

    Unless and until obedience flows from love then real, internal change has not occurred, and real righteousness has not been achieved in us. I appreciate the words of Basil of Caesarea here, a 4th century bishop:
    If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  8. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

    Acts 13:38-39, "Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by this one everyone who believes is justified from everything from which the law of Moses could not justify you.

    Romans 3:24, "But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    Romans 8:30, "And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

    Galatians 2:16b, " And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    Titus 3:7, "And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life."

    Nowhere is these quotes from various "books" does it say anything about justification by obedience (a.k.a. works). We are justified by God's grace alone, not by earning it through obedience to God's will.
     
  9. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Faith, as both a gift of grace and a very human choice of accepting and embracing that gift, is the first act of obedience to God’s will. And love, and therefore obedience, will then flow from that connection established via faith to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  10. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Member

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    Romans 6:16-18 teaches obedience BEFORE justification/freed from sin. John 8:24; Luke 13:3, Matthew 10:32-33; Mark 16:16, Romans 10:9-10; Acts 2:38 among many more verses put obedience in believing repenting, confession and submitting to baptism BEFORE salvation/justification. These verses along with the verse you cited show there are MANY things involved in man's justification not just by one thing alone, no justification by grace alone..no justification by faith alone.

    Titus 2:11 if men were uncondtionally justified by grace alone then "all men" will UNCONDITIONALLY be saved not having to believe, not having to repent of sins, not having to confess Christ, not having to submit to baptism for remission of sins.

    Romans 6, Paul refutes the idea that grace alone justifies. Romans 6:1-2 even though the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian license to live in sin. One is either obeying or disobeying God, no middle ground. If one is not obeying God he is serving "sin unto death" (lost). Yet those who obey are serving "obedience unto righteousness" (salvation) Romans 6:16. Therefore obedience by the Christian is necessary to keep the Christian from serving 'sin unto death'. As Paul says, we are all serving either one of two masters, we will either be saved or lost by serving sin unto death and be lost or serve obedience unto righteousness to be saved. We each are serving one or the other. I serve "obedience unto righteousness". Those that trust in Luther's faith only, which one of the two are they serving?

    Again, there is no example of one who continually, deliberately living in rebellion and disobedience to God's will yet justifed UNconditionally any way.
     
  11. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    There's a flip side to the story of love. It would be a beautiful thing if love would work for us all to keep these laws that is written in our hearts and mind. But if love won't work for some people, Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  12. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Amen! In John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (not faith + obedience/works) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    In James 2:21, we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

    James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
     
  13. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    First let me say that God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2 Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.


    So let's talk about Paul writing in Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Now we going back to animal sacrificial law conversation. To explain these verses I have to go backward from this lesson. When Paul talks he speaks about two different types of works, two different types of laws, two different deaths and you have slightly mix up the works.

    If Jesus didn't come and die or become a sin offering for mankind all would have been put in the lake of fire, including, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Paul says in Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. This is talking about the first and second death. I notice on this forum, most people don't talk about the second death, and that's the most important death to worry about.

    Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. See, Adam brought both death. This is why the atonement was practice in Leviticus 16 and so important. They had to live in hopes of what we living in now, because Christ already came and died in our day. But in their time, they sins was always on them including the second death. That's why Paul says in Hebrew 10: For the law (what law, the law of animal sacrifice?) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Because animal can't take away sins. The Lord had Moses to use two scapegoats because they were practicing on what Jesus had to actually go through to remove the sins off of mankind for righteous.

    Now, Paul says in Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Let's take a look in Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? This is hard for most people to understand this, because people are not taught about the second death, and when they see the word death in the Bible, they looking at it as the first death most of the time. But let's get a verse out the Bible thats clean cut in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    So I thank God the more and more, because three times Jesus prayed to the Father in Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19). This lesson is to focus the faith and works we have to do, to enter in life. The prophets, Jesus and the apostles, all put in work, we have to do the same. Only this time, you going to die for your own sins, no one else.
     
  14. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, well, to the extent that we do love, sin is excluded. But none of us yet love perfectly in this life, so meanwhile fear plays it's useful role. Ultimately, as God has His way with us, love will completely cast out fear, and justice will reign in God's currently wayward creation.
     
  15. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Jesus says in Matthew 5: 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. As long as sin is in the world the Passover must be kept. Don't teach people not to keep the passover, you going against the most high. Paul say in 1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Leaven represent sin, so Paul saying on the passover or after, be new person.
    The Lord's Supper I Corinthians (11:20) When you come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

    Paul in the above verse made a reference to the Passover by referring to it as the Lord's supper. If one looks at verse (11:23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Clearly see that Paul is talking about the Passover. The following verse shows what Paul is talking about when he speaks of not eating the Lord's supper. In Exodus (12:11) And thus shall ye eat it; with your lions girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.





    You mixing all these verses up with know undering. Paul in Acts 18:18 took Vow. Didn't say it was nazarite vow. And where was the sin offering, prove all that you say and post out all the verses and scriptures. In Hebrews 8:4 Paul is talking about the usual things that the high priest deal with, but Jesus being a High priest and not on earth things are different in that office.

    Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

    Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

    Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments. In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them.

    Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    (8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    (9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

    Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

    Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

    John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

    John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.




    (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself.



    (v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

    (v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

    How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

    (v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster.

    And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law. Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. So when you quoted all the places in the Bible that do away with this animal sacrificial law, not understanding that Paul talks about two sets of law. The Royal law (Ten Commandments) and the animal sacrificial law sometimes in the same verse you bring destruction to yourselves. At some point common sense you kick in. If I'm reading about the doing away of a law or not under a law, then somewhere else Paul tell you that the law is Holy just and good, another place break mostly all the Ten commandments down. A light bulb should come on in your head, Paul have to be talking about two sets of laws. In other places Paul explain the animal sacrificial law.





    Paul told you to; (2Tim. 2:15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, (not man) a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You must rightfully divide the word of God, you must find out where every thing fits because fit it does.
     
  16. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Well, if love don't work, then in the scriptures it written in Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. Last book of the Bible in Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  17. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    If we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation.

    Now this is how faith and works start working together, doing all those things that are written to do. What did Jesus say in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Let’s see who else you have to love, Jesus says in Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; People complain about the way the world is and won’t change themselves, to do the will of God. Pay attention to what Jesus says in Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. And that sword is the Word of God. Take a copy of this and past it around and look at people faces, because they have to clean themselves up. It’s easy for people to say how much they love the Lord, they may be able to deceive man, but God knows the mind. Many profess they know God, but in their works they deny him everyday. Paul said in (Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him; being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Yea, most people are talking about how they know God with their lips, but by they works they are doing something totally different. The Lord God commanded you to remember the Sabbath day (which is the seventh day of the week) to keep it holy and you deny him to his face by saying “I go to church on Sunday (the first day of the week) because Paul broke bread on Sunday”. There's no other day to go to church on, but what's written in the Bible. So people have been taught to do the things thats not written in the Bible and to use the Bible to justify it.


    Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Some of the great patriarchs in (Heb.11) gave up a lot, some even their lives in exchange for their soul. You see they had great faith (belief) that their souls (bodies) would be raised at the first resurrection. And some of you won’t even give up some of the littlest things like, going to church on Sunday, the pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter, praying to the Virgin Mary, I could go on and on. And most so-called Christians know these rituals have nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible, but a lot of work get put into them. But do they understand that they are offensive to God? Maybe it’s because they have more faith in man than God, maybe it’s because they fear how man is going to treat them, and don’t fear God. But listen up; (v.27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Now these are the words of Jesus (the Son of man), you know the savior of the world. He said that when he comes he is going to judge every man according to his works. Don't be deceived thinking all you need to do is have faith in the Lord and you will be saved?

    Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

    (v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead.
     
  18. grumix8

    grumix8 New Member Supporter

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    fear is part of human life but God wants you to love above all because without it you can't be complete.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    To say that any of God's laws have ended is to call Jesus a liar and to disregard his warning.

    I did not speak against keeping Passover.

    In Acts 18:18, it says that Paul shaved his head because he was under a vow. There is only one type of vow in the Bible that involves someone shaving their head, so it could have only referred to a Nazarite vow.

    Jesus was asked about which of the commandments was the greatest, so he could only have been speaking about commandments that had already been given. I agree that there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associating our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, and not just ten of them.

    In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so criticizing them for not obeying the truth could not have been referring to the Mosaic Law. Again, Galatians 3:10-12 contrasts works of the law with the Book of the law. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey the Mosaic Law as if following Christ was somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of living in obedience to the Mosaic Law while verses 15-68 describe the curse of living in disobedience to the Mosaic Law, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of the law.

    All of the commandments that God has given teach us how to testify about His nature, so they have all been around for as long as God's nature has been eternal, though they have not always been given. In Romans 5:13, sin was in the world before the law was given, so again the laws that define what sin is existed prior to when they were given, and they were given because of transgressions in order to teach us what sin is and to lead us to repent from it. It should be noted that Jesus did not go around telling people that the Mosaic Law had ended and that they needed to stop repenting, but just the opposite, which should strongly influence how to correctly understand what Galatians 3 says about him. In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it, so all of the Mosaic Laws are God's eternal commandments. Someone who disregarded everything their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. Paul saying that our faith does not abolish God's law is the opposite of saying that it has ended. All of the commandments that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love Him and our neighbor, so the Royal law is inclusive of all of the commandments that God has given, not just ten of them. The Mosaic Law brings us to Christ because everything in it teaches us how to testify about His nature and how to thereby grow in a relationship with him, but does not lead us to Christ so that we can reject it.
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    God's laws teach us how to testify about Christ. For example, God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about Christ's righteousness, so we should live in a way that testifies about Christ's righteousness by following those laws, but if we are testifying about Christ while disobeying those laws, then we are bearing false testimony against his righteousness. It says that they are foreshadows of what is to come, not of what has already come, but either way we should live in a way that testifies about Christ by following those laws. We should structure every aspect of our lives in a way that testifies about the heavenly pattern by following God's instructions for how to do that in His law. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead on concluding that we no longer need to keep Passover now that Christ has come, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the feast. In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul was encouraging them to continue to keep God's feasts and to not let anyone judge them for obeying God. Even if your interpretation were correct, Paul didn't have the authority to countermand God.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside the law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Mosaic Law with the Law of Christ. He was not openly admitting to deceiving people, but was speaking about giving up his rights in order to meet people where they were at. In 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, it is sinful to eat meat from the altar, but it verses 23-31, it was not sinful to eat mean that had previously been offered to idols. The Nazarite vow is about our relationship with God, not about deceiving others. The fact that Paul was prevented from paying for their offerings does not detract from the fact that it was his intention to do so.
     
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