Faith Plus Works

[Tayla]

When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

That faith and works are inseparable. Until you do something, you may have belief, but not faith. You demonstrate your faith when you work. That is why repentance and confessing the name of Jesus and etc, and other things must be performed as part of getting saved.

 

[PaulCyp1]

We mean that claiming to believe, but not living as though you believe, not DOING the things God requires of believers, will not result in salvation. As Jesus said, "It is not those who say 'Lord, Lord' who will enter the kingdom, but those who DO the will of the Father".

 

[Not David]

OK, but do the good deeds that a believer performs count towards the prospect of him being saved? You know, bigger acts of charity count for more with God than trivial ones; and if you don't do enough of them, you may not make the grade even as a believer.

Works are defined by participation in the Sacraments (God imparts grace through them but if you don't participate in them it doesn't have any effect on you), praying and fasting and living a godly life.

 

[Not David]

Faith is the empty hand which receives Christ. Furthermore, it is itself a gift from God. What's to boast about?

It's possible to boast about it.

 

[Alithis]

When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

Why ask ? Until people repent of mary worship and idolatry and lies about pugatory they are niether in faith or rightousness of action.(works)

 

[Albion]

Works are defined by participation in the Sacraments (God imparts grace through them but if you don't participate in them it doesn't have any effect on you), praying and fasting and living a godly life.

First, the word works does not refer just to the reception of the sacraments or, for that matter, performing other tasks relating to the church, such as prayer, pilgrimages, fasting etc.

But when you get to what you referred to as "living a godly life", i.e. carrying out works of mercy such as Christ recommended in the Sermon on the Mount, you are in the right area.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why ask ? Until people repent of mary worship and idolatry and lies about pugatory they are niether in faith or rightousness of action.(works)

I am not Catholic, nor Orthodox, etc.; I also do not agree with praying to Mary, or praying to the saints, nor do I agree with bowing down to statues, partaking in the sacraments that comes only from a church book (not found in the Bible), and nor do I believe in purgatory and yet: I believe that is the one of the few things the Catholic/Orthodox type churches get right is... "That we are saved by God's grace and by Sanctification," too. Granted, we do not agree on the keeping of which works save us. But they at least believe in the Trinity, right? Well, I also believe in the Trinity, as I am sure you do, as well.

Anyways, 2 Thessalonians 2 says,

"...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13).​

So it is not one or the other alone. One needs a belief in the Savior and one also needs Sanctification by the Spirit, too. This may be hard to accept because the belief you have is all you have ever known, but the Word of God cannot lie and it is plain in what it says here.

 

[Not David]

Why ask ? Until people repent of mary worship and idolatry and lies about pugatory they are niether in faith or rightousness of action.(works)

Who worships Mary and are idolaters?

 

[Alithis]

I am not Catholic, nor Orthodox, etc.; I also do not agree with praying to Mary, the saints, or bowing down to statues, partaking in the sacraments that comes only from a church book (not found in the Bible), and nor do I believe in purgatory and yet, I believe that is the one of the few things the Catholic/Orthodox type churches get right is... that we are saved by God's grace and by Sanctification, too. For they also believe in the Trinity, right? Well, I also believe in the Trinity, as I am sure you do, as well.

Anyways, 2 Thessalonians 2 says,

"...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13).​

So it is not one or the other alone. One needs a belief in the Savior and one also needs Sanctification by the Spirit, too. This may be hard to accept because the belief you have is all you have ever known, but the Word of God cannot lie and it is plain in what it says here.

If a little leaven ruins the whole. Then a whole lot of leaven is not righted by a single right point
Its like trying to make a barrel full of rotten apples good by throwing one good apple on top.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a little leaven ruins the whole. Then a whole lot of leaven is not righted by a single right point
Its like trying to make a barrel full of rotten apples good by throwing one good apple on top.

While I am not agreement with Catholic/Orthodox practices (and I have argued against them on other forums), I am not here to judge the Catholic/Orthodox practices because that does not go over too well here. So I pick and choose my battles. It just so happens that you are in luck that one of my greatest passions next to my passion in loving Jesus is fighting against the different "sin and still be saved type beliefs" that are ever so popular these days.

So any time you are ready to go over the verses that I have put forth, I am ready to defend the good faith of my Lord Jesus Christ and His good ways with His Word.

 

[redleghunter]

It would be like God giving us a hand to avoid falling into a pit but if we don't do anything then we will fall.

How does John 10:27-30 factor into this?

 

[Alithis]

Who worships Mary and are idolaters?

Most of the people that lie by saying they dont yet they do either in person or by proxy and implication by not openly denouncing it. Unless you think parading images of mary down streets in emitional adoration is not doing so .
But the point of my insertion into the thread is to note that this poibt re faith vs works or faith only or faith and works is a red herring.
Its being used to trick people back under rcc dominance.
Itsca farce
A shiney red apple on top of a barrel of apples that is stenched with its rotteness.
You are younger. Pehaps take the time to read about those executed at thier hands .for obeying the lord Jesus and refusing the rcc

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How does John 10:27-30 factor into this?

The sheep (described here) are those sheep who FOLLOW Jesus. They are not lazy sheep who are being dragged by their necks on leashes here. So the condition in not being plucked out of his hand is if we are following Jesus.

Remember, the sheep are those who actually helped the poor in Matthew 25:31-40. However, the goats did not help the poor and they were cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41-46).

 

[Alithis]

While I am not agreement with Catholic/Orthodox practices (and I have argued against them on other forums), I am not here to judge the Catholic/Orthodox practices because that does not go over too well here. So I pick and choose my battles. It just so happens that you are in luck that one of my greatest passions next to my passion in loving Jesus is fighting against the different "sin and still be saved type beliefs" that are ever so popular these days.

So any time you are ready to go over the verses that I have put forth, I am ready to defend the good faith of my Lord Jesus Christ and His good ways with His Word.

No it does not go down well... But we know this place is about advertising and revenue.
Careful of compromise...it makes 2 things go away.
1 persecution
2 salvation.

Both are lost by compromise

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Pegagianism is the belief that:

1. Adam's sin did not effect future generations.
2. The beginning half of faith is an act of free will by man.
3. The increase of faith is an act of free will by man.

Semi Pelagianism is the belief that:

1. Adam's sin somewhat effected future generations.
2. The beginning half of the faith is an act of free will by man.
3. The increase of faith (growing in faith) is an act of God.

I believe in Prevenient Grace. This is the belief taught in the Bible that God draws us and we respond by to this drawing of our own free will.

See Prevenient Grace here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace


Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism
https://www.gotquestions.org/Pelagianism.html

#2 and 3 under Semi-P are either not fleshed out enough to be meaningful or else they contradict one another. #2 is autonomy and #3 is theonomy (monergistic). Stating both to be synergistic would at least be consistent. #1 just flat out fails when weighed with the Scriptures on the topic of sin, transgressions, trespasses, unrighteousness, etc (Scripture test). It also fails the historical doctrine test, and the experiential test and past history of mankind's behavior and sins against one another, among the unregenerate and regenerate alike.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No it does not go down well... But we know this place is about advertising and revenue.
Careful of compromise...it makes 2 things go away.
1 persecution
2 salvation.

Both are lost by compromise

I will argue against it in other ways whereby it is more effective. I believe Paul did not have to go to prison. While Paul was one of the greatest men of God (than I can think of), he did not take heed to another believer's prophecy in not going to Jerusalem. His love for his people was really great. So no. I am not looking to avoid persecution. I receive that just fine in arguing on many other topics (Including my argument against Eternal Security). Granted, most of it is verbal persecution. But yes. All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. I know that is unavoidable. But we also can be as innocent as doves and as wise as serpents, too.

We are also told to escape all these things (i.e. the Tribulation) by being read and being watchful for the Lord's immanent return, as well (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#2 and 3 under Semi-P are either not fleshed out enough to be meaningful or else they contradict one another. #2 is autonomy and #3 is theonomy (monergistic). Stating both to be synergistic would at least be consistent. #1 just flat out fails when weighed with the Scriptures on the topic of sin, transgressions, trespasses, unrighteousness, etc (Scripture test). It also fails the historical doctrine test, and the experiential test and past history of mankind's behavior and sins against one another, among the unregenerate and regenerate alike.

I do not believe in Pelagianism and nor do I believe in Semi-Pelagianism. The definitions I provided are from different sources and not just one.

I am not going to argue on what those sources say because that is not the specific purpose of this thread.

I believe in Original Sin, Prevenient Grace, and Synergism (Which is different than Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism).

As for the last part of your post:
It is a little too foggy for me in what you are trying to say.
Are you for a sin and still be saved type belief because of a belief alone on Jesus?
Or do you believe God's grace and holiness both play a part in the salvation equation?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I do not believe in Pelagianism and nor do I believe in Semi-Pelagianism. The definitions I provided are from different sources and not just one.

I am not going to argue on what those sources say because that is not the specific purpose of this thread.

I believe in Original Sin, Prevenient Grace, and Synergism (Which is different than Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism).

As for the last part of your post:
It is a little too foggy for me in what you are trying to say.
Are you for a sin and still be saved type belief because of a belief alone on Jesus?
Or do you believe God's grace and holiness both play a part in the salvation equation?

I believe the work of Christ alone saved me, by imputation justified me, and the Spirit of God preserves me according to the will of God. If I should pull a Jonah, God will provide a big fish, and cause me to reconsider my free will choice(s).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the work of Christ alone saved me, by imputation justified me, and the Spirit of God preserves me according to the will of God. If I should pull a Jonah, God will provide a big fish, and cause me to reconsider my free will choice(s).

Unfortunately that is not how things work in regards to salvation according to the Bible. While God can certainly chastise us, and or do things to protect us, if we start off saying that our gospel message is in Christ alone and nothing else, that means that we are telling other people that we can sin and still be saved (Whether we want to happen or not).

For saying: Grace + nothing else = salvation...
Is another way of saying: Grace + sin = salvation.
For "sin" falls under the "nothing else" category.
Because one is saying that sin does not play a factor in the salvation equation.
Therefore a person can sin and still be saved.
Meaning, a Christian can be an axe murdering rapist and be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. Now, many will say that a true Christian will not do those kinds of things. But what they are really saying is that there is a certain level of holiness that is required to be saved when they say that a Christian will not do those things. So yes.... holiness is required as a part of the salvation process unless of course you believe Christians can be saved even while they are axe murdering rapists.

Please take note that I have talked with people who believe they can do extremely grievous sins with the thinking they are saved. I had people admit to me they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so.

 

[Loren T.]

Do our good works contribute to meriting our salvation or are they a natural result and component of our salvation?

I am not reformed, more like armininan, but I would not say our works merit salvation. Faith is the key to obtaining and keeping salvation. Works are the natural results of trusting God.