Faith or Predestination

[Hammster]

When you say those who were in His presence are you referring to the entire crowd of people (Jn.12:29), the Pharisees (Jn. 12:19), the Greeks (Jn. 12:20), the disciples (12:21-22), or the rulers (Jn. 12:42)?
Which group are you saying could not believe?
And why do you think God didn't want them to believe?

Those who didn’t get an explanation. That should be clear.

As to why, well, you’ll have to ask Jesus.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Those who didn’t get an explanation. That should be clear.

As to why, well, you’ll have to ask Jesus.

The text indicates that Jesus told the people that ...while you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light (vs. 36) and it says that...even among the rulers many believed in Him (vs.42).

Since the quote of John 12:38-40, about the blind eyes and hard hearts, is from Isaiah I find it informative that the book of Isaiah begins by addressing the rebellion of the people of Israel, a sinful nation, men wise in their own eyes, who had forsaken the Lord, refusing to listen to Him. Then in John and the other places in the NT where this passage from Isaiah is quoted the same thing occurs as the religious leaders refuse to believe in the words or signs of Jesus. So I think it is clear enough that God hardened their hearts because they were already hard and disbelieving, and as it says in Matthew 13:15 and Acts 25:27 their eyes they have closed.

 

[Hammster]

The text indicates that Jesus told the people that ...while you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light (vs. 36) and it says that...even among the rulers many believed in Him (vs.42).

Since the quote of John 12:38-40, about the blind eyes and hard hearts, is from Isaiah I find it informative that the book of Isaiah begins by addressing the rebellion of the people of Israel, a sinful nation, men wise in their own eyes, who had forsaken the Lord, refusing to listen to Him. Then in John and the other places in the NT where this passage from Isaiah is quoted the same thing occurs as the religious leaders refuse to believe in the words or signs of Jesus. So I think it is clear enough that God hardened their hearts because they were already hard and disbelieving, and as it says in Matthew 13:15 and Acts 25:27 their eyes they have closed.

Jesus didn’t say “hey, I quoted from Isaiah, so go read the whole book and maybe you’ll figure out what I’m getting at, because I’m being somewhat cryptic right now”.

No, I think it best to take it the same way the original hearers and readers meant it.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Jesus didn’t say “hey, I quoted from Isaiah, so go read the whole book and maybe you’ll figure out what I’m getting at, because I’m being somewhat cryptic right now”.

No, I think it best to take it the same way the original hearers and readers meant it.

For one thing, Jesus didn't say the quote from Isaiah. It was John inspired by the Holy Spirit to include it in his gospel showing the connection to its origin in reference to the rebellion of the nation of Israel in the OT and its prophetic fulfillment with the nation of Israel again in disbelieving and rejecting their promised Messiah. I don't think there is anything cryptic about it since everything in God's word is included for a reason and the prophetic passages are significant.

So, I am wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated then why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

 

[SBC]

I think you misunderstood what my point was (you read more into it than what was there). I’m sure you have good points. Even the post I said was a mess probably has good points. But if your communication is poor, then your good points are lost in translation.

I read what people say. And many times, what they say is not what they mean. I try to be explicit. So, ya, I know I communicate differently. In my experience; The deaf, prisoners, and children make the best students. Adults, raised in the Church, the worst students.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

For one thing, Jesus didn't say the quote from Isaiah. It was John inspired by the Holy Spirit to include it in his gospel showing the connection to its origin in reference to the rebellion of the nation of Israel in the OT and its prophetic fulfillment with the nation of Israel again in disbelieving and rejecting their promised Messiah. I don't think there is anything cryptic about it since everything in God's word is included for a reason and the prophetic passages are significant.

So, I am wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated then why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

Wait...Jesus didn’t say it?

 

[Hammster]

I read what people say. And many times, what they say is not what they mean. I try to be explicit. So, ya, I know I communicate differently. In my experience; The deaf, prisoners, and children make the best students. Adults, raised in the Church, the worst students.

God Bless,
SBC

Well, I’m not your student, so you should tone down the pride just a bit.

 

[SBC]

Well, I’m not your student, so you should tone down the pride just a bit.

Then don't be concerned, whether or not your name appears where I post. What I say is for others to hear, not you, as you have confirmed.

And you would do well to not confuse pride with serving the Lord. I am not ashamed of how I serve Him nor take the credit of how He strengthens me to do His will.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Then don't be concerned, whether or not your name appears where I post. What I say is for others to hear, not you, as you have confirmed.

And you would do well to not confuse pride with serving the Lord. I am not ashamed of how I serve Him nor take the credit of how He strengthens me to do His will.

God Bless,
SBC

Well, if you fancy yourself a teacher, you’d do well to work on better communication, at least with how your posts come across.

 

[SBC]

Well, if you fancy yourself a teacher, you’d do well to work on better communication, at least with how your posts come across.

I serve the Lord in the capacity He shows me. The labels are irrelevant.
You can continue to ham, ham, hammster hammer, against my communication skills, but why bother, you have no obligation whatsoever to hear what I say and I have no obligation to understand it for you.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

I serve the Lord in the capacity He shows me. The labels are irrelevant.
You can continue to ham, ham, hammster hammer, against my communication skills, but why bother, you have no obligation whatsoever to hear what I say and I have no obligation to understand it for you.

God Bless,
SBC

Just trying to help.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Wait...Jesus didn’t say it?

Since Jesus is the Word, everything in the scriptures is from Him. Yet, in the account in John's gospel the quote from Isaiah is not spoken to the people by Jesus. John was inspired to include it to show the fulfillment of prophecy.

"Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:


40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”


41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."

So, I am still wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

 

[Hammster]

Since Jesus is the Word, everything in the scriptures is from Him. Yet, in the account in John's gospel the quote from Isaiah is not spoken to the people by Jesus. John was inspired to include it to show the fulfillment of prophecy.

"Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:


40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”


41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."

So, I am still wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

Did He say it in Mark 4?

 

[RisenInJesus]

Did He say it in Mark 4?

Yes...
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’
Mark 4:11-12

Looks like He was also saying that had their hearts not been hard they may have heard and understood, repented and had their sins forgiven.

Still wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

 

[Hammster]

Yes...
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’
Mark 4:11-12

Looks like He was also saying that had their hearts not been hard they may have heard and understood, repented and had their sins forgiven.

Still wondering... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

Good question. Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe.

It’s possible, that because faith comes by hearing, that He’s just saying that they won’t hear, that the Spirit won’t work in them.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Good question. Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe.

Calvinism is a movement within orthodox Christianity. Augustine first introduced his unique doctrinal beliefs which were later expounded upon and promoted by John Calvin. I believe these doctrines deviate from what most Christians believe to be biblical about the Spirit's work in a person before they can believe. The accusation of Pelagianism is simply a way to demonize and marginalize those who disagree with these Calvinistic doctrines.

Here are a few reasons why this label would not rightly represent our views:

• We believe man has the capacity to respond willingly to God’s means of seeking to save the lost, NOT that man would seek God if left alone.

• We believe God is graciously actively working in and through creation, conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and his Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

• We believe salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior. Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father. That was the choice of a gracious father alone.

Pelagianism: The Calvinist's Boogie Man - Soteriology 101: Former Calvinistic Professor Discusses Doctrines Of Salvation (podcast)

It’s possible, that because faith comes by hearing, that He’s just saying that they won’t hear, that the Spirit won’t work in them.

You still did not answer the question.... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

 

[Hammster]

Calvinism is a movement within orthodox Christianity. Augustine first introduced his unique doctrinal beliefs which were later expounded upon and promoted by John Calvin. I believe these doctrines deviate from what most Christians believe to be biblical about the Spirit's work in a person before they can believe. The accusation of Pelagianism is simply a way to demonize and marginalize those who disagree with these Calvinistic doctrines.

Here are a few reasons why this label would not rightly represent our views:

• We believe man has the capacity to respond willingly to God’s means of seeking to save the lost, NOT that man would seek God if left alone.

• We believe God is graciously actively working in and through creation, conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and his Word to aid humanity in their conversion.

• We believe salvation is wholly of God in that He owes no man forgiveness or eternal life, even if they freely repent and humbly submit to Him as Lord and Savior. Asking for forgiveness no more merits that forgiveness than the prodigal son’s return home merited the reception he received from his father. That was the choice of a gracious father alone.

Pelagianism: The Calvinist's Boogie Man - Soteriology 101: Former Calvinistic Professor Discusses Doctrines Of Salvation (podcast)



You still did not answer the question.... if as according to Calvinism, everyone is already incapable of believing in Jesus until they are first regenerated, why would God even need to harden anyone's heart at all so they could not believe?

What do you mean by incapable, since you chose this word?

 

[RisenInJesus]

What do you mean by incapable, since you chose this word?

Inability to repent or respond to God’s revelation/gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Inability to repent or respond to God’s revelation/gospel.

And why is that?

 

[RisenInJesus]

And why is that?

What do you mean, why is what?