Faith or Predestination

2tim_215

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Some:
Particularly Jews, expected a Messiah King, to rule them then, protected them then, save them then.
Jesus certainly did not come LOOKING like a King (He came to earth without reputation) Phil 2:7
And HOW Jesus was preaching Salvation, what not the HOW they expected.

Some: like today, say eh, parable, made up story to make a point, (so now let's all guess what the point is) :scratch: They can say the words, Jesus IS the TRUTH, but they really don't trust that is true, thus try to make the meaning of parable, their excuse, to not believe Jesus' parables are all true. Their excuses are a fail.

Some: already had hardened hearts; you know, the ones who have already decided, he's just another Prophet (as there were many in those days). Hardened hearts, are those who have rejected belief, even before they hear the word. (I presume, some of this sort might be; I already have a god, who needs you attitude).

Which is to say, God is Just; a man who doesn't want to believe, God hardens their heart, so they can't.
Thus they get what they wanted.

God Bless,
SBC
I think that the hardening comes when they've gone beyond the point where it becomes obvious to God that there's no way they're going to repent. Then he just gives then want they want. Why burden their consciences any more when He knows it's not going to do any good?
 
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Hammster

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From your view who are "they" that could not believe? And why could they not believe?
Those whom were in His presence at the time. And they could not believe because He didn’t want them to.
 
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Hammster

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3 Reasons Jesus spoke in parables -

1) to fulfill prophecy that he would speak in parables

2) some would believe he was telling a made up story, while others would believe, He is the Truth, and only speaks the Truth. (ie hear, but not hear).

3) to reveal things that had been kept secret. (hear, but not understand).

God Bless,
SBC
And so that they could not believe.
 
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SBC

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Those whom were in His presence at the time. And they could not believe because He didn’t want them to.

God doesn't WANT men to believe? Nah.

That is backwards. God wants all men to believe.

1 Tim 2

[4] ...have all men.... come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And for men who themselves do not WANT to believe,
God makes it so they can NOT believe. (via a hardened heart)
And for men who themselves DO WANT to believe,
God makes it so they CAN believe. (via a new heart)

WHY? The reason for WHY, is revealed in Romans 9:17

Romans 9:17

[17] For.... that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The WHY, goes back to other Scriptures, regarding what is done FOR the sake of the glory of His name.

Pss 79
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name:

Pss 109
[21] But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake:

Pss 143
[11] Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake:

1 John 2
[12] ...your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Pss 106 [8] ..he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

Matt 19
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

And everyone who hath not, forsaken the worldly, also for his name's sake, shall not inherit everlasting life.

1 Sam 12
[22] For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake:

Consequently everything effected is accomplished;
BY, Gods Power, FOR the sake of the Glory for Gods great NAMES.

Every man who desires to BELIEVE, who does BELIEVE, is strengthened in his BELIEF, by Gods Power to give the man, FAITH for, FAITH-fullness in God.

And, every man who desires to NOT BELIEVE, who does NOT BELIEVE, is equally strengthened in his DIS-BELIEF, by Gods Power to withhold the man from, receiving FAITH for, FAITH-fullness in God..

By this premise; All men, believing or not believing, are participants in effecting God Glory.
By this premise; All men that "reject" God, "are" NOT His people, and "are" strengthened by His Power, to "reject" Him.
By this premise; All men that "belong to" God, "are" His people, and "are" strengthened by His Power, to be in Faith- FULLNESS to Him only.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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That is backwards. God wants all men to believe.

The world is upside down - nothing is as it seems - no one is what they seem to be. (all men are liars)

i.e. a few years ago (between 10 and 15 years I think),
that was the "most common" think I remember pastors and lawyers and teachers repeating over and over again for some time, and showing with many real life examples the truth of this,
as it is in line with God's Truth, God's Word.
 
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Hammster

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God doesn't WANT men to believe? Nah.

That is backwards. God wants all men to believe.

1 Tim 2

[4] ...have all men.... come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And for men who themselves do not WANT to believe,
God makes it so they can NOT believe. (via a hardened heart)
And for men who themselves DO WANT to believe,
God makes it so they CAN believe. (via a new heart)

WHY? The reason for WHY, is revealed in Romans 9:17

Romans 9:17

[17] For.... that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The WHY, goes back to other Scriptures, regarding what is done FOR the sake of the glory of His name.

Pss 79
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name:

Pss 109
[21] But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake:

Pss 143
[11] Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake:

1 John 2
[12] ...your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Pss 106 [8] ..he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.

Matt 19
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

And everyone who hath not, forsaken the worldly, also for his name's sake, shall not inherit everlasting life.

1 Sam 12
[22] For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake:

Consequently everything effected is accomplished;
BY, Gods Power, FOR the sake of the Glory for Gods great NAMES.

Every man who desires to BELIEVE, who does BELIEVE, is strengthened in his BELIEF, by Gods Power to give the man, FAITH for, FAITH-fullness in God.

And, every man who desires to NOT BELIEVE, who does NOT BELIEVE, is equally strengthened in his DIS-BELIEF, by Gods Power to withhold the man from, receiving FAITH for, FAITH-fullness in God..

By this premise; All men, believing or not believing, are participants in effecting God Glory.
By this premise; All men that "reject" God, "are" NOT His people, and "are" strengthened by His Power, to "reject" Him.
By this premise; All men that "belong to" God, "are" His people, and "are" strengthened by His Power, to be in Faith- FULLNESS to Him only.

God Bless,
SBC
37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
"Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. - John 12:37-41

Seems pretty clear.
 
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SBC

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And so that they could not believe.

Well, technically, BELIEF, is a natural liberty, that men were created with, as their own liberty to have their own governance over, to choose WHAT "they" want to believe.

God simply uses His power, to strengthen an individuals own choice of belief.

Men standing in the crowds listening to Jesus speak, made their own individual choices to believe what Jesus was saying, or not.

Men who chose to believe, their belief was strengthened.
Men who chose to not believe, their dis-belief was strengthened.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Hammster

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Well, technically, BELIEF, is a natural liberty, that men were created with, as their own liberty to have their own governance over, to choose WHAT "they" want to believe.

God simply uses His power, to strengthen an individuals own choice of belief.

Men standing in the crowds listening to Jesus speak, made their own individual choices to believe what Jesus was saying, or not.

Men who chose to believe, their belief was strengthened.
Men who chose to not believe, their dis-belief was strengthened.

God Bless,
SBC
The text doesn’t say that.
 
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SBC

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37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
"Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. - John 12:37-41

Seems pretty clear.

What is your point? Are you disagreeing with what I presented?

You present some of the knowledge revealed. As did I.

I additionally presented the WHY.

Do you disagree with the WHY?

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Hammster

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What is your point? Are you disagreeing with what I presented?

You present some of the knowledge revealed. As did I.

I additionally presented the WHY.

Do you disagree with the WHY?

God Bless,
SBC
I’m posting what Jesus said. He gave the reason WHY they COULD NOT believe.
 
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SBC

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The text doesn’t say that.

Well, technically, BELIEF, is a natural liberty, that men were created with, as their own liberty to have their own governance over, to choose WHAT "they" want to believe.

John 6
[64] But there are some of you that believe not.

Is it your contention, God MAKES a man believe, but yet, Gods own power FAILS, at making a man believe? Since it is well known and revealed in Scripture, SOME men believe, and SOME men believe not.

It is my belief, that God has created man with FREEWILL, to make his own choices to believe according to his OWN choices.

It matters not to me, if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.

God simply uses His power, to strengthen an individuals own choice of belief.

Pss 46 [1] God is our ...strength
Neh 8: [10] ..the LORD is your strength

Matters not to me, if you contend whether or not, the Lord is the strength of men.
For me, He is my strength.

Men standing in the crowds listening to Jesus speak, made their own individual choices to believe what Jesus was saying, or not.

Rom 12:3
[3] ...according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

My understanding is any mans BELIEF is dictated by the mans own freewill, and God giving of faith, is measured, and given a man, according to God pleasure.

Your contention with that premise, is of your own understanding. It matters not to me, if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.

Men who chose to believe, their belief was strengthened.
Men who chose to not believe, their dis-belief was strengthened.


2 Cor 12

[9] ... for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

It is my belief, mankind is weak, and Gods power is Supreme.

It matters not to me if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.

The text doesn’t say that.

I never claimed to be "quoting" text.
So, your comment is moot.

I was, in my own words, revealing, my agreement with the understanding of the text.

If you are in disagreement with my understanding, that is of no issue with me.
I am content with the understanding of the Lord, I ask for and receive, and stand in agreement with the Lords understanding.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Hammster

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Well, technically, BELIEF, is a natural liberty, that men were created with, as their own liberty to have their own governance over, to choose WHAT "they" want to believe.

John 6
[64] But there are some of you that believe not.

Is it your contention, God MAKES a man believe, but yet, Gods own power FAILS, at making a man believe? Since it is well known and revealed in Scripture, SOME men believe, and SOME men believe not.

It is my belief, that God has created man with FREEWILL, to make his own choices to believe according to his OWN choices.

It matters not to me, if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.

God simply uses His power, to strengthen an individuals own choice of belief.

Pss 46 [1] God is our ...strength
Neh 8: [10] ..the LORD is your strength

Matters not to me, if you contend whether or not, the Lord is the strength of men.
For me, He is my strength.

Men standing in the crowds listening to Jesus speak, made their own individual choices to believe what Jesus was saying, or not.

Rom 12:3
[3] ...according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

My understanding is any mans BELIEF is dictated by the mans own freewill, and God giving of faith, is measured, and given a man, according to God pleasure.

Your contention with that premise, is of your own understanding. It matters not to me, if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.

Men who chose to believe, their belief was strengthened.
Men who chose to not believe, their dis-belief was strengthened.

2 Cor 12

[9] ... for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

It is my belief, mankind is weak, and Gods power is Supreme.

It matters not to me if you disagree with me. I am content to agree with Scripture.



I never claimed to be "quoting" text.
So, your comment is moot.

I was, in my own words, revealing, my agreement with the understanding of the text.

If you are in disagreement with my understanding, that is of no issue with me.
I am content with the understanding of the Lord, I ask for and receive, and stand in agreement with the Lords understanding.

God Bless,
SBC
Should I agree with your mess of a post, or the clear words of Christ?

I chose the latter.
 
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SBC

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The world is upside down - nothing is as it seems - no one is what they seem to be. (all men are liars)

i.e. a few years ago (between 10 and 15 years I think),
that was the "most common" think I remember pastors and lawyers and teachers repeating over and over again for some time, and showing with many real life examples the truth of this,
as it is in line with God's Truth, God's Word.

Agree;

Rom 1 [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie.

Matt 5 [37] But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Should I agree with your mess of a post, or the clear words of Christ?

You should agree with whatever you choose.
You should understand however you choose.
What I say is not in contrast to scripture.
What I understand is not in contrast to scripture.

I chose the latter.

That's nice. I also agree with Scripture's knowledge.

You will do well to also understand Scripture; according to Gods Spiritual understanding.
When I speak according to Gods Spiritual understanding, and you call that a mess, that tells me much.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Hammster

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You should agree with whatever you choose.
You should understand however you choose.
What I say is not in contrast to scripture.
What I understand is not in contrast to scripture.



That's nice. I also agree with Scripture's knowledge.

You will do well to also understand Scripture; according to Gods Spiritual understanding.
When I speak according to Gods Spiritual understanding, and you call that a mess, that tells me much.

God Bless,
SBC
It should tell you that your communication skills need work.
 
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SBC

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It should tell you that your communication skills need work.

Nah. It is not about HOW one communicates. That is already established, via speech.

It is however about WHAT one communicates. IOW, the understanding perspective.

There absolutely IS division among Christian Churches.
I'm sure you have noticed, the umpteen "denominations" and "no-denomination" "Christian" Churches.

And if you examined their differences, I would say, you would likely find, their differences hang on
"understanding" of scriptures, or more loosely called "interpretations" of scriptures.

Do you really believe God wants, SO CALLED BELIEVERS, to have umpteen "different" concluded "understandings" of what scripture mean?

I don't. And neither does Scripture teach that.

IF you examine the knowledge in Scripture, you should find, God desires all believers to have the SAME understanding of what scripture means. According to men? No. According to HIM; His understanding.

When the disciples discovered this knowledge, their prayers were for other believers, to also have Gods understanding, which they called "spiritual understanding".

This has been a mystery for OT men. Because certain things were KEPT SECRET from them. They spoke about, WHO can understand God, but God Himself. Who can look in a book and find Gods Understanding. The mystery has been revealed; Gods Understanding of the meaning of Scriptures
ONLY comes from God to the individual.

If one SEEKS it, it shall be given them.

However you should know, congregates flock to the Churches, to hear the Word of God, then wait for the Pastor to tell them what it means. uh, is their Pastor God? no.

The KEY is ONLY God gives His understanding of what the scriptures mean.

When two or more men engage in conversation, and they ALL have the same understanding given them BY GOD, their communication is productive and edifying one to the other.

When two or more men engage in conversation, and they AGREE on their Pastor's "interpretation", they also will be content with their agreement.

However, HOW does the two or more men KNOW, the basis of their Pastor's "interpretation"? Was it from his own carnal mind, or given him, via God?

If it "makes sense to their own mind", then what you have is a "meeting of the carnal minds of men".

And lest your forget;

Rom 8 [7] .. the carnal mind is enmity against God:

Which should notify you, as scripture itself does, God wants to fill a mans HEART, with His Knowledge and His Understanding thereof.

So, while you think I have a communication issue. No.
You have a "spiritual understanding" issue.

I don't know what you do, I only see the results of what you or anyone says.
I know what I go after, endlessly, like David, after Gods OWN Heart, where all His Treasures of
Knowledge and Understanding are waiting for believing men to seek and ask for.

I'm not here saying ha, ha, I know something you don't know.
I am here to converse with others WHO already do seek and receive Gods understanding of Scriptures.
And speak to those who do not know Gods understanding is no longer hidden, but available to those
who diligently seek it.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Hammster

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Nah. It is not about HOW one communicates. That is already established, via speech.

It is however about WHAT one communicates. IOW, the understanding perspective.

There absolutely IS division among Christian Churches.
I'm sure you have noticed, the umpteen "denominations" and "no-denomination" "Christian" Churches.

And if you examined their differences, I would say, you would likely find, their differences hang on
"understanding" of scriptures, or more loosely called "interpretations" of scriptures.

Do you really believe God wants, SO CALLED BELIEVERS, to have umpteen "different" concluded "understandings" of what scripture mean?

I don't. And neither does Scripture teach that.

IF you examine the knowledge in Scripture, you should find, God desires all believers to have the SAME understanding of what scripture means. According to men? No. According to HIM; His understanding.

When the disciples discovered this knowledge, their prayers were for other believers, to also have Gods understanding, which they called "spiritual understanding".

This has been a mystery for OT men. Because certain things were KEPT SECRET from them. They spoke about, WHO can understand God, but God Himself. Who can look in a book and find Gods Understanding. The mystery has been revealed; Gods Understanding of the meaning of Scriptures
ONLY comes from God to the individual.

If one SEEKS it, it shall be given them.

However you should know, congregates flock to the Churches, to hear the Word of God, then wait for the Pastor to tell them what it means. uh, is their Pastor God? no.

The KEY is ONLY God gives His understanding of what the scriptures mean.

When two or more men engage in conversation, and they ALL have the same understanding given them BY GOD, their communication is productive and edifying one to the other.

When two or more men engage in conversation, and they AGREE on their Pastor's "interpretation", they also will be content with their agreement.

However, HOW does the two or more men KNOW, the basis of their Pastor's "interpretation"? Was it from his own carnal mind, or given him, via God?

If it "makes sense to their own mind", then what you have is a "meeting of the carnal minds of men".

And lest your forget;

Rom 8 [7] .. the carnal mind is enmity against God:

Which should notify you, as scripture itself does, God wants to fill a mans HEART, with His Knowledge and His Understanding thereof.

So, while you think I have a communication issue. No.
You have a "spiritual understanding" issue.

I don't know what you do, I only see the results of what you or anyone says.
I know what I go after, endlessly, like David, after Gods OWN Heart, where all His Treasures of
Knowledge and Understanding are waiting for believing men to seek and ask for.

I'm not here saying ha, ha, I know something you don't know.
I am here to converse with others WHO already do seek and receive Gods understanding of Scriptures.
And speak to those who do not know Gods understanding is no longer hidden, but available to those
who diligently seek it.

God Bless,
SBC
I think you misunderstood what my point was (you read more into it than what was there). I’m sure you have good points. Even the post I said was a mess probably has good points. But if your communication is poor, then your good points are lost in translation.
 
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RisenInJesus

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Those whom were in His presence at the time. And they could not believe because He didn’t want them to.
When you say those who were in His presence are you referring to the entire crowd of people (Jn.12:29), the Pharisees (Jn. 12:19), the Greeks (Jn. 12:20), the disciples (12:21-22), or the rulers (Jn. 12:42)?
Which group are you saying could not believe?
And why do you think God didn't want them to believe?
 
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