Faith or Predestination

[RisenInJesus]

He says what you want to hear.

Not necessarily, but I feel Dave Hunt has always been careful to submit his views to the scriptures and emphasis the importance for each believer to search the scriptures out to see if what he says or anyone else teaches is true and lines up with the Bible. I have appreciated that and have always desired to do so while seeking God to reveal His truth and will through His Word.

I'm sure John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, James White and others such as these say what you want to hear.

 

[Hammster]

Not necessarily, but I feel Dave Hunt has always been careful to submit his views to the scriptures and emphasis the importance for each believer to search the scriptures out to see if what he says or anyone else teaches is true and lines up with the Bible. I have appreciated that and have always desired to do so while seeking God to reveal His truth and will through His Word.

I'm sure John Piper, John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, James White and others such as these say what you want to hear.

Here’s the difference. Dave Hunt has an agenda. Like most of the threads you start, he was against Calvinism. It basically defined his ministry. I know this because I was a regular listener of his show on Saturdays on XM radio before I became Reformed. He was one of my go to guys.

So I think it’s safe to say that he’s known more for what he was against then for what he was for.

Piper, Sproul, etc., are not know for what they are against. And if you ever listen to their sermons, they wouldn’t even be known for being Reformed, in that they aren’t pushing a Reformed agenda. They preach the word, one verse at a time in most cases.

So you need to look are what the focus is. Even between you and I. You’ve stated multiple threads where your agenda is to show the flaws in Calvinism. I’ve not started any threads in the last few years (I won’t say never because I cannot remember) where my goal was to disprove Arminianism and it’s derivatives. I’d rather be for what I think is the truth rather than against what I think is false.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Here’s the difference. Dave Hunt has an agenda. Like most of the threads you start, he was against Calvinism. It basically defined his ministry. I know this because I was a regular listener of his show on Saturdays on XM radio before I became Reformed. He was one of my go to guys.

So I think it’s safe to say that he’s known more for what he was against then for what he was for.

Piper, Sproul, etc., are not know for what they are against. And if you ever listen to their sermons, they wouldn’t even be known for being Reformed, in that they aren’t pushing a Reformed agenda. They preach the word, one verse at a time in most cases.

So you need to look are what the focus is. Even between you and I. You’ve stated multiple threads where your agenda is to show the flaws in Calvinism. I’ve not started any threads in the last few years (I won’t say never because I cannot remember) where my goal was to disprove Arminianism and it’s derivatives. I’d rather be for what I think is the truth rather than against what I think is false.

I don't think Dave Hunt had an agenda. What he did have was an apologetic ministry defending the biblical faith and encouraging spiritual discernment, which I believe he was called to by the Lord. A ministry of this kind naturally involves taking a stand against false teachings. If you had listened to or read his materials for any length of time you would certainly not say that his stand against Calvinism defined his ministry. In was only in the last few years of his life that he addressed Calvinism as he saw the aggressive way so many Reformed authors and pastors were pushing their doctrines, acting like spiritual elitists, judging and labeling other non-Calvinist believers, and causing major divisions in churches. Most of his ministry had been focused on cults, atheism, evolution, the false prosperity and social gospels, occultism and other false teachings invading the church, which led people away from Christ and the Word of God.

Along with this, he wrote several books and articles which encouraged believers in their faith and walk with the Lord by looking to Jesus and God's Word alone for truth and life in the present and for eternity.

Yes, I have started a few threads to address what I believe is wrong about Calvinism. Maybe you haven't started any threads recently where your goal was what you are against. But after being away from these forums for several months, when I returned I noticed there were suddenly so many threads by Jimmyjimmy and yourself elevating Calvinistic doctrines. I had come to the point in my life where Calvinism was in the past because I had spent years praying, researching and studying this subject and seeing the effects it had on Christians. I was at peace with God and rarely thought about Calvinism for over ten years. Yet, when I saw all the threads for Calvinism I simply felt compelled to address the subject with the threads I started. It seemed to me that an agenda was being pushed, just like when I listen to Piper or Sproul, I can hear the Calvinistic doctrines being pushed.

I am glad that T.A. McMahon who is carrying on The Berean Call ministry is staying faithful to the vision Dave Hunt was called to. I appreciate the linked article below, especially since I was raised a Catholic and I see the connection between Catholicism and Calvinism. Maybe you will enjoy reading the article.

The Enigma of Calvinism

 

[Hammster]

I don't think Dave Hunt had an agenda. What he did have was an apologetic ministry defending the biblical faith and encouraging spiritual discernment, which I believe he was called to by the Lord. A ministry of this kind naturally involves taking a stand against false teachings. If you had listened to or read his materials for any length of time you would certainly not say that his stand against Calvinism defined his ministry. In was only in the last few years of his life that he addressed Calvinism as he saw the aggressive way so many Reformed authors and pastors were pushing their doctrines, acting like spiritual elitists, judging and labeling other non-Calvinist believers, and causing major divisions in churches. Most of his ministry had been focused on cults, atheism, evolution, the false prosperity and social gospels, occultism and other false teachings invading the church, which led people away from Christ and the Word of God.

Along with this, he wrote several books and articles which encouraged believers in their faith and walk with the Lord by looking to Jesus and God's Word alone for truth and life in the present and for eternity.

Yes, I have started a few threads to address what I believe is wrong about Calvinism. Maybe you haven't started any threads recently where your goal was what you are against. But after being away from these forums for several months, when I returned I noticed there were suddenly so many threads by Jimmyjimmy and yourself elevating Calvinistic doctrines. I had come to the point in my life where Calvinism was in the past because I had spent years praying, researching and studying this subject and seeing the effects it had on Christians. I was at peace with God and rarely thought about Calvinism for over ten years. Yet, when I saw all the threads for Calvinism I simply felt compelled to address the subject with the threads I started. It seemed to me that an agenda was being pushed, just like when I listen to Piper or Sproul, I can hear the Calvinistic doctrines being pushed.

I am glad that T.A. McMahon who is carrying on The Berean Call ministry is staying faithful to the vision Dave Hunt was called to. I appreciate the linked article below, especially since I was raised a Catholic and I see the connection between Catholicism and Calvinism. Maybe you will enjoy reading the article.

The Enigma of Calvinism

So the ministry didn’t have an agenda, but the linked article is against Calvinism.

Got it.

 

[RisenInJesus]

So the ministry didn’t have an agenda, but the linked article is against Calvinism.

Got it.

There are plenty of articles on various subjects to choose from on The Berean Call website, unrelated to Calvinism. I chose this one because we are discussing this subject of Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

I’m curious on your take on this passage

37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. (John 12:37, NASB)

 

[RisenInJesus]

I’m curious on your take on this passage

37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. (John 12:37, NASB)

I am having a very busy weekend and can't respond to this right away and would like to think about it. It seems that verse 37 is saying something important, though. Since this passage is a quote from Isaiah I will have to read it in its original context, along with its context in John. So I am going to read the chapter it is quoted from and a few chapters before and after, pray, and seek God for understanding and then get back to you.

 

[Hammster]

Sounds good.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Sounds good.

I expected to respond sooner. Last Sunday as we drove several hours to visit family for my brother's birthday I read through the book of Isaiah. Got home late. Monday we got the news that my brother and his wife had to evacuate in the middle of the night and their home completely burned in one of the northern CA fires. Thankfully, they are okay as are several other relatives and friends in the area, yet all are on edge as the fires continue to burn. So my thoughts have been elsewhere.

May get a response later today.

 

[Hammster]

I’m sorry to hear about your brother and his wife. I’m from Northern Cal and still have friends there. Fortunately, everyone is still safe.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I’m sorry to hear about your brother and his wife. I’m from Northern Cal and still have friends there. Fortunately, everyone is still safe.

I pray your friends remain safe.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I’m curious on your take on this passage

37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. (John 12:37, NASB)

After reading through Isaiah and the other places in the NT where this passage from Isaiah is mentioned or alluded to (Matthew 12:14-15, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, Acts 28:35-37; Romans 11:7-8) along with the one you posted from John, I believe the context of this passage shows it is in reference to national Israel and in particular the blindness of the religious leaders, who even after seeing the miraculous signs of Jesus refused to believe. Both Matt. 13:15 and Acts 28:27 indicate that those who did not believe closed their own eyes to Jesus and/or the gospel message. Therefore, God used their unbelief, further hardening and blinding them, to fulfill His prophetic word and accomplish His purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles (Romans 11:7-8, 25).


It is very clear from reading everything in context that the passage is not in reference to spiritual blindness of all people in general. Nor do I believe it can be used as support for the Calvinistic doctrine which says that people have no ability to repent or believe the gospel. I can give my reasons using the scriptures, if you like, but won't waste time if you are so committed to it as a proof text for Calvinism, rather than seeing what the scriptures are actually saying. Better yet, would be for you to read Isaiah 1-6; Matthew 12:14-15; Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10; John 12:27; Acts 28:35-37; Romans 11:7-8 and related references in your Bible while praying for God to reveal to you what these scriptures are saying... seeking God's truth even if it is outside the box of Reformed/Calvinistic theology.

 

[Hammster]

After reading through Isaiah and the other places in the NT where this passage from Isaiah is mentioned or alluded to (Matthew 12:14-15, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, Acts 28:35-37; Romans 11:7-8) along with the one you posted from John, I believe the context of this passage shows it is in reference to national Israel and in particular the blindness of the religious leaders, who even after seeing the miraculous signs of Jesus refused to believe. Both Matt. 13:15 and Acts 28:27 indicate that those who did not believe closed their own eyes to Jesus and/or the gospel message. Therefore, God used their unbelief, further hardening and blinding them, to fulfill His prophetic word and accomplish His purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles (Romans 11:7-8, 11-25).


It is very clear from reading everything in context that the passage is not in reference to spiritual blindness of all people in general. Nor do I believe it can be used as support for the Calvinistic doctrine which says that people have no ability to repent or believe the gospel. I can give my reasons using the scriptures, if you like, but won't waste time if you are so committed to it as a proof text for Calvinism, rather than seeing what the scriptures are actually saying. Better yet, would be for you to read Isaiah 1-6; Matthew 12:14-15; Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10; John 12:27; Acts 28:35-37; Romans 11:7-8 and related references in your Bible while praying for God to reveal to you what these scriptures are saying... seeking God's truth even if it is outside the box of Reformed/Calvinistic theology.

I love these responses. I actually laughed out loud. Even though the text is clear about why He spoke in parables (Mark 4:12), I’m the one that needs to pray for the truth.

Maybe it’s you that needs to seek God’s truth, even if it’s outside your synergist Theology. (See how easy that is?)

 

[RisenInJesus]

I love these responses. I actually laughed out loud. Even though the text is clear about why He spoke in parables (Mark 4:12), I’m the one that needs to pray for the truth.

Maybe it’s you that needs to seek God’s truth, even if it’s outside your synergist Theology. (See how easy that is?)

You really didn't address anything I posted.

Yes, the text is clear that Jesus spoke in parables because he knew the evil hard hearts of the Pharisees and Herodians... And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other. Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him. (Mark 3:5-6).

As the text says to those who believed and followed Him, His disciples, to them it was given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God ... And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables (Mark 4:11)

Certainly He would not share the mystery of the kingdom of God with those He knew were of a hard, disbelieving heart with a desire to destroy Him. This does change anything I previously posted.

 

[Hammster]

You really didn't address anything I posted.

Yes, the text is clear that Jesus spoke in parables because he knew the evil hard hearts of the Pharisees and Herodians... And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other. Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him. (Mark 3:5-6).

As the text says to those who believed and followed Him, His disciples, to them it was given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God ... And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables (Mark 4:11)

Certainly He would not share the mystery of the kingdom of God with those He knew were of a hard, disbelieving heart with a desire to destroy Him. This does change anything I previously posted.

These reasons they could not (not would not) believe.

There’s that.

 

[RisenInJesus]

These reasons they could not (not would not) believe.

There’s that.

From your view who are "they" that could not believe? And why could they not believe?

 

[SBC]

Yes, the text is clear that Jesus spoke in parables because ....

3 Reasons Jesus spoke in parables -

1) to fulfill prophecy that he would speak in parables

2) some would believe he was telling a made up story, while others would believe, He is the Truth, and only speaks the Truth. (ie hear, but not hear).

3) to reveal things that had been kept secret. (hear, but not understand).

God Bless,
SBC

 

[RisenInJesus]

3 Reasons Jesus spoke in parables -

1) to fulfill prophecy that he would speak in parables

2) some would believe he was telling a made up story, while others would believe, He is the Truth, and only speaks the Truth. (ie hear, but not hear).

3) to reveal things that had been kept secret. (hear, but not understand).

God Bless,
SBC

Thank you.

 

[RisenInJesus]

3 Reasons Jesus spoke in parables -

1) to fulfill prophecy that he would speak in parables

2) some would believe he was telling a made up story, while others would believe, He is the Truth, and only speaks the Truth. (ie hear, but not hear).

3) to reveal things that had been kept secret. (hear, but not understand).

God Bless,
SBC

Why do you think some heard, but did not understand?

 

[SBC]

Why do you think some heard, but did not understand?

Some:
Particularly Jews, expected a Messiah King, to rule them then, protected them then, save them then.
Jesus certainly did not come LOOKING like a King (He came to earth without reputation) Phil 2:7
And HOW Jesus was preaching Salvation, what not the HOW they expected.

Some: like today, say eh, parable, made up story to make a point, (so now let's all guess what the point is) They can say the words, Jesus IS the TRUTH, but they really don't trust that is true, thus try to make the meaning of parable, their excuse, to not believe Jesus' parables are all true. Their excuses are a fail.

Some: already had hardened hearts; you know, the ones who have already decided, he's just another Prophet (as there were many in those days). Hardened hearts, are those who have rejected belief, even before they hear the word. (I presume, some of this sort might be; I already have a god, who needs you attitude).

Which is to say, God is Just; a man who doesn't want to believe, God hardens their heart, so they can't.
Thus they get what they wanted.

God Bless,
SBC