Faith or Predestination

[RisenInJesus]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

 

[TaylorSexton]

False dichotomy.

 

[RisenInJesus]

False dichotomy.

How is it a false dichotomy?

 

[2tim_215]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

It's grace. I believe that there's a misunderstanding regarding predestination: God didn't "predestine" who'd be saved and who wouldn't (if I understand what you're asking) with perhaps a few excepted cases, what he predestined is that there would be some who'd choose salvation which is offered to everyone (and conversely) there would be some who wouldn't (which of course he'd know before hand).

I think that the doctrine of predestination is one of the great lies that Satan uses to convince people that they've already been predestined to go to hell so why should they bother and might as well serve him. I remember there was a time when I thought that I might be predestined for hell and eventually decided that even if I were, that I'd hate the devil with all my heart regardless and would never serve him.

 

[TaylorSexton]

How is it a false dichotomy?

Pitting two separate parts of the very same ordo salutis as if a person must choose between one or the other is a false dichotomy.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Pitting two separate parts of the very same ordo salutis as if a person must choose between one or the other is a false dichotomy.

Well, I afraid that I disagree with your charge of a false dichotomy since I believe the Calvinistic order of salvation to be unbiblical in the first place. A person is not choosing between one part or another of the very same ordo salutis, as according to Calvinsim, but between the biblical ordo salutis or the Calvinistic order.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Well, I afraid that I disagree with your charge of a false dichotomy since I believe the Calvinistic order of salvation to be unbiblical in the first place. A person is not choosing between one part or another of the very same ordo salutis, as according to Calvinsim, but between the biblical ordo salutis or the Calvinistic order.

Then you have admitted that your original post is begging the question, and through that creating a false dichotomy. Perhaps, then, you should revise the question so that it is between the Reformed view of the ordo salutis and what you see to be the biblical view.

 

[Tolworth John]

Is it faith or predestination?

As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By that verse it is both faith and predestination.

 

[RisenInJesus]

As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By that verse it is both faith and predestination.

That verse does not say anything about predestination and only a Calvinist reads predestination into it.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Then you have admitted that your original post is begging the question, and through that creating a false dichotomy. Perhaps, then, you should revise the question so that it is between the Reformed view of the ordo salutis and what you see to be the biblical view.

I do not admit that the OP is begging the question or a false dichotomy. If you think so then you may specifically explain why you do. And in the OP the question already is between the Reformed position and what I believe to be the biblical position.

 

[SBC]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

First of all -
I believe SIN is a TRANSGRESSION ONLY Against God.
And that SIN can ONLY thus, BE forgiven BY God.
And that SIN forgiven By God, IS because a person ASKED God to forgive him.
And ONCE a person ASKS, God forgives ALL Sin of truthful believers.
And ONCE forgiven, the man CAN NEVER AGAIN "be" or "commit" Sin against God.

I believe TRESPASSES are TRANSGRESSIONS of Mankind AGAINST Mankind.
And Mankind CAN or NOT forgive trespasses.
And Mankind CAN or NOT be forgiven of his own trespasses.
Scripture teaches that men are to forgive trespasses.
Scripture teaches that men WHO DO forgive trespasses, God will also forgive their trespasses of their trespasses against men.

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

Salvation is dependent upon Faith.

Predestination is simply God KNOWING our choices BEFORE we do.

Predestination affords God having PREPARATIONS in PLACE, since remember all things were created before mankind.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[2tim_215]

Let's attempt to rightly divide:
Romans 8:27-30(KJV) 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Note 1: Paul is talking to saints here (that is, believers, i.e, those who have already been saved).
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
called - G2822 κλητός klētos klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint:—called.
Note 2: Again, already a saint. *Also note - called invited, we all have been invited to join God's family, it's just that not everyone has accepted his invitation.
purpose- G4286 πρόθεσις prothesis proth'-es-is
From G4388; a setting forth, that is, (figuratively) proposal (intention); specifically the show bread (in the Temple) as exposed before God:—purpose, shew [-bread].
Note 3: Intention, purpose, what God's intending for the called saint.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
foreknow- G3739 ὅς, ἥ, ὅ hos hē ho hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that:—one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
Note 4: We all know that He knew us before we were born (pretty clear from many scriptures).
predestinate - G4309 προορίζω proorizō pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.
Note 5: Seems to me to mean that once we called (invited), accept, we are limited in that we now live a life for Christ and he puts bounds on what we do (based on what His word tells us to do). We no longer own our own lives, He owns them and helps us to walk the straight and narrow which we could not do without His help.
conformed - G4832 συμμορφός summorphos soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar:—conformed to, fashioned like unto.
Note 6: And what is His purpose? That we conform to the image of His son as we now become His representatives to the rest of the world.
image - G1504 εἰκών eikōn i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:—image.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate (G4309), them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
predestinate - G4309 προορίζω proorizō pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.
called - G2564 καλέω kaleō kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).
Note 7: I believe that those whom He called and who heard His voice, and accepted His invitation He now leads and protects against all evil in addition to justifying them before Himself and will bring honor to them..
justified - G1344 δικαιόω dikaioō dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify (-ier), be righteous.
glorified- G1392 δοξάζω doxazō dox-ad'-zo
From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application):—(make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

To sum things up in somewhat simplistic terms, I think it all boils down to: Whosoever will and whosoever won''t.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Let's attempt to rightly divide:
Romans 8:27-30(KJV) 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Note 1: Paul is talking to saints here (that is, believers, i.e, those who have already been saved).
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
called - G2822 κλητός klētos klay-tos'
From the same as G2821; invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint:—called.
Note 2: Again, already a saint. *Also note - called invited, we all have been invited to join God's family, it's just that not everyone has accepted his invitation.
purpose- G4286 πρόθεσις prothesis proth'-es-is
From G4388; a setting forth, that is, (figuratively) proposal (intention); specifically the show bread (in the Temple) as exposed before God:—purpose, shew [-bread].
Note 3: Intention, purpose, what God's intending for the called saint.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
foreknow- G3739 ὅς, ἥ, ὅ hos hē ho hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that:—one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
Note 4: We all know that He knew us before we were born (pretty clear from many scriptures).
predestinate - G4309 προορίζω proorizō pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.
Note 5: Seems to me to mean that once we called (invited), accept, we are limited in that we now live a life for Christ and he puts bounds on what we do (based on what His word tells us to do). We no longer own our own lives, He owns them and helps us to walk the straight and narrow which we could not do without His help.
conformed - G4832 συμμορφός summorphos soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar:—conformed to, fashioned like unto.
Note 6: And what is His purpose? That we conform to the image of His son as we now become His representatives to the rest of the world.
image - G1504 εἰκών eikōn i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:—image.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate (G4309), them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
predestinate - G4309 προορίζω proorizō pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.
called - G2564 καλέω kaleō kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).
Note 7: I believe that those whom He called and who heard His voice, and accepted His invitation He now leads and protects against all evil in addition to justifying them before Himself and will bring honor to them..
justified - G1344 δικαιόω dikaioō dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify (-ier), be righteous.
glorified- G1392 δοξάζω doxazō dox-ad'-zo
From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application):—(make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

To sum things up in somewhat simplistic terms, I think it all boils down to: Whosoever will and whosoever won''t.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Tolworth John]

That verse does not say anything about predestination and only a Calvinist reads predestination into it.

I'm sorry for you RiseninJesus, living among people where you have to ask for free gifts rather than being just given them.
If salvation is a gift to slaves of satan, just who has enabled those slave to recieve that gift?
or is the hold the devil has on the unsaved so weak that they can unaided cast him off?

 

[TaylorSexton]

I do not admit that the OP is begging the question or a false dichotomy. If you think so then you may specifically explain why you do. And in the OP the question already is between the Reformed position and what I believe to be the biblical position.

I have already explained how it is begging the question in very plain and simple words; you can look at the previous post. If you do not accept it, that is your choice, and I cannot change that. However, just because you do not accept something does not mean it is not so.

I hope you find the answers you're looking for, and I hope you are looking for them in order to grow closer to God, and not to push away brothers and sisters.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I'm sorry for you RiseninJesus, living among people where you have to ask for free gifts rather than being just given them.
If salvation is a gift to slaves of satan, just who has enabled those slave to recieve that gift?
or is the hold the devil has on the unsaved so weak that they can unaided cast him off?

Clearly God has made it possible for me or anyone to receive the gift of salvation by offering it to whosoever will believe and receive it. I really don't understand your point or what you are trying to say.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I have already explained how it is begging the question in very plain and simple words; you can look at the previous post. If you do not accept it, that is your choice, and I cannot change that. However, just because you do not accept something does not mean it is not so.

I hope you find the answers you're looking for, and I hope you are looking for them in order to grow closer to God, and not to push away brothers and sisters.

You have not explained it except to say..."Pitting two separate parts of the very same ordo salutis as if a person must choose between one or the other is a false dichotomy". To which I responded that I believe your foundational Calvinistic ordo salutis is contrary to the message of the scriptures concerning the order of salvation, therefore the OP not an issue of a false dichotomy or begging the question.

Paul did not hesitate to speak against false teachings or other gospels. I am not trying to push away brothers and sisters in Christ, but I believe we as believers are to stand for the gospel that was once and for all delivered to the saints. The entire Gospel message and that which Paul and the apostles preached to all people everywhere they went was to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and they would be saved. The Reformed position the God has predestined who is saved, regenerates them before they can believe is diametrically opposed to the teaching of the scriptures and makes salvation based on predestination, instead of faith. This is a theology of men and a false gospel which I believe needs to be addressed by the church and Bible believing Christians.

 

[bling]

I'm sorry for you RiseninJesus, living among people where you have to ask for free gifts rather than being just given them.
If salvation is a gift to slaves of satan, just who has enabled those slave to recieve that gift?
or is the hold the devil has on the unsaved so weak that they can unaided cast him off?

The unsaved, nonbeliever is not of his own power casting satan off nor is he enabling himself to receive the gift, but everyone has the ability to accept the invitation (just as they all could accept the King's invitation to the banquet) even while you are a child of satan.

 

[TaylorSexton]

...I believe your foundational Calvinistic ordo salutis is contrary to the message of the scriptures concerning the order of salvation, therefore the OP not an issue of a false dichotomy or begging the question.

This statement right here—which you yourself just wrote—is precisely the reason I gave when I suggested that you revise the OP, since the question not about "predestination or faith," but about the Calvinistic view of the ordo salutis versus what you see as the biblical one. You literally just repeated what I said to you here. Therefore, the OP is indeed begging the question, the question being about the biblical fidelity of Reformed soteriology. The OP as it stands merely asserts its infidelity, making the entire thread, frankly, useless.

It isn't that difficult to see, friend. But, again, just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't there; you're just not seeing it.

 

[2tim_215]

Thank you for sharing this.

It's my pleasure.