Faith or Predestination

[Si_monfaith]

Neither.

Source of faith?

 

[Si_monfaith]

The Calvinist doctrine of Predestination is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Predestination has to do with Israel and God's plan to fulfill His promises to Abraham. It's not about God choosing one person over another to be saved.

Romans 9:15 is about election by God's will.

 

[Phantasman]

Source of faith?

Mind.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Accepting a gift doesn't mean one 'produces' the gift nor that one produces acceptance.

Scriptures disagree with your statement in John 10: 26, "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep". Therefore unless one is a sheep one can't believe.

Jesus tells them to believe not because they could believe but to tell them that they can't believe unless they are His sheep.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have explained that. But one more time:

Predestination does not refer to the selection of individuals. Nor does it imply the direct authorship of every single happening by God as is often falsely charged by non-Calvinists. It has to do with what God has decreed beforehand will and will not be allowed to happen in His creation whether that happening is caused directly by Him or is caused by the 2nd causes referred to in the authoritative Calvinist document - The Westminster Confession of Faith.

Election has to do with the selection, for His own reasons which we do not know for sure in every case, of certain individuals to be acted directly upon by Him in order that they will be enabled to do the things He has predestined to occur.

The words are different and they are different theological concepts.

Of course. No need to state the obvious.

No one here would suggest otherwise whether they be Calvinist or non-Calvinist.

Whether that knowledge and understanding is given by God directly or indirectly in the case of enlightenment concerning the truth of the gospel is one of the subjects we are discussing here.

Of course I believe those things. I have affirmed those beliefs several times in this thread alone. Others here do not and that is another subject we are discussing which is somewhat related to the first subject mentioned above.

The ability to repent, believe, and confess are made possible by the grace of God working within us. But grace itself does not repent, believe, and confess.

Grace has no need to get saved in that manner. Grace is not a person.

We believe in a Trinity of persons in the one true God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We do not believe in the persons we call Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Grace and whatever attribute or activity of God you would care to name as persons.

It looks like you've managed to find something to argue about with at least half a dozen people here in this thread alone. That should keep you busy - even if I choose not to participate with you again.

I would like you to tell us exactly what you believe in a nutshell though.

That would be much more productive here than your asking rhetorical questions of everyone just to be able to come back on them with another one after they have answered you.

The words are different and they are different theological concepts

Nonsense. Romans 8:30 and Romans 8:33 use the terms predestination and election referring to selection of individuals.

Whether that knowledge and understanding is given by God directly or indirectly in the case of enlightenment concerning the truth of the gospel

Irrelevant. Source of knowledge, understanding, assurance is God. Unless God elects and provides these no one can believe.

Grace has no need to get saved in that manner. Grace is not a person.

Irrelevant. Grace working through a person is undeniable and scriptural.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Neither is faith a direct gift from God

Faith (assurance that Jesus indeed justified us by His blood) does not originate by itself nor by man.

Scripture points the origin to God though human pride shies away from admitting it.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Neither is faith a direct gift from God

Faith (assurance that Jesus indeed justified us by His blood) does not originate by itself nor by man.

Scripture points the origin to God though human pride shies away from admitting it.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Jennifer Ronnie said: "Neither is faith a direct gift from God".

REPLY:
Faith (assurance that Jesus indeed justified us by His blood) does not originate by itself nor by man.

Scripture points the origin to God though human pride shies away from admitting it.

 

[InterestedApologist]

According to conditional election, if God knew beforehand that only some would believe in His Son, why should He send His Son to make an universal atonement?

Does conditional election empty universal atonement of its meaning?

"Contradict the Biblical descriptions of God's character":
God's character as described by the Bible is in Romans 9:15 where election by His will precedes His mercy and not the other way round. The apparent contradiction is due to seeing election the other way round.

I have already answered this, so I won't repost the same thing over again. A few questions for you:

1. Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man choose to disobey of their own volition?
2. Does man have free will?
3. Does God refuse salvation to some?
4. Is God really all good?
5. Is God just?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Mind.

Scriptural evidence?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Jennifer Rothnie said: "Accepting a gift doesn't mean one 'produces' the gift nor that one produces acceptance".

REPLY:
In order to accept a gift, the gift must exist before the accepting.

Claiming that a gift is accepted in order for the gift to exist is illogical and renders the accepting meaningless.

Scripture says very clearly that the elect are indeed justified by His blood. Justification is a gift from God.

Secondly, you seem to think that acceptance is independent of the knowledge and assurance that God gives the elect. Once these are given, acceptance follows. That is why Philippians 1: 29 says that "to believe" is a gift of God.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have already answered this, so I won't repost the same thing over again. A few questions for you:

1. Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man choose to disobey of their own volition?
2. Does man have free will?
3. Does God refuse salvation to some?
4. Is God really all good?
5. Is God just?

1. Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man choose to disobey of their own volition?

What difference does it make when according to you God anyway went ahead to create those whom He knew will reject His Son and thus orchestrate damnation, right?

2. Does man have free will?

You think that man's will is free because you think that the human will needs no prior knowledge and assurance in order to make a choice!

3. Does God refuse salvation to some?

Anyway you think that God knows beforehand as to who will believe in His Son but will never force the others to believe in His Son. Isn't that too a refusal of salvation to some?

4. Is God really all good?

God's choice is based on His will (rom 9:15) and not on His goodness.

5. Is God just?

God's choice is based on His will (rom 9:15) and not on His justice.

 

[Rescued One]

<snip>

We are justified through faith and without faith we are not justified.

The work of Christ at Calvary forms the basis of our salvation. But it is not the entire requirement for salvation.

As I said, we are not justified by Jesus' work in and of itself. If that were true then you and I and everyone He died for would have been justified from the split second He finished that work.

Exactly. Faith is necessary.

I did not say that we produce faith ourselves apart from His grace. I have consistently said otherwise.

We do exercise faith. Whether we obtained that faith by grace or worked it up out of ourselves is a moot point.

The Bible says we can't work it up. It's a gift.

His grace cannot repent from sins, believe the gospel, and confess a trust in the work of Christ for salvation. Grace is not a person.

Perhaps grace is not a person, but God's grace is what enables us to do God's will.

1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Romans 7
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I don't see how I could have become a Christian without God's arranging it for me. My four siblings aren't Christians.

I didn't create my faith. I didn't create my desire to know God.

 

[Rescued One]

Mind.

Who made the mind receptive to God's words?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Exactly. Faith is necessary.



The Bible says we can't work it up. It's a gift.



Perhaps grace is not a person, but God's grace is what enables us to do God's will.

1 Corinthians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Romans 7
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I don't see how I could have become a Christian without God's arranging it for me. My four siblings aren't Christians.

I didn't create my faith. I didn't create my desire to know God.

Do you believe that the elect of God will certainly be saved?
John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[InterestedApologist]

1. Did God orchestrate the fall of man, or did man choose to disobey of their own volition?

What difference does it make when according to you God anyway went ahead to create those whom He knew will reject His Son and thus orchestrate damnation, right?

I have already answered this once and you refuse to address my response except to dismiss it. I have a feeling you will not answer because you know that Calvinism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself.

2. Does man have free will?

You think that man's will is free because you think that the human will needs no prior knowledge and assurance in order to make a choice!

You are putting words in my mouth. I asked if man has free will or not. A yes or no answer will suffice.

3. Does God refuse salvation to some?

Anyway you think that God knows beforehand as to who will believe in His Son but will never force the others to believe in His Son. Isn't that too a refusal of salvation to some?

Again, another dodge of the question. I asked what you believe, not what you think I believe.

4. Is God really all good?

God's choice is based on His will (rom 9:15) and not on His goodness.

5. Is God just?

God's choice is based on His will (rom 9:15) and not on His justice.

So, to be clear, you believe God's will is his defining characteristic, and this happens in a vacuum independent of what the Bible says about Hs very nature, correct? Does God's will have to be consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love or not?

 

[Phantasman]

Scriptural evidence?

Matthew:
Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Romans:
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then I myself in my mind serve the Law of God, but in my flesh the law of sin.
Romans:
And fashion not yourselves like unto this world, but be ye changed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God is.
Romans:
That ye with one mind, and with one mouth may praise God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinth:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
Ephesians:
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Philippians:
Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
1 John:
But we know that that Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind to know him, which is true, and we are in him that is true, that is, in that his Son Jesus Christ, the same is that very God, and that eternal life.
Gospel of Mary:
9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision

 

[Phantasman]

Who made the mind receptive to God's words?

Hi Pheobe. I remember years back talking to you. When Mormons used to be discussed here under Unorthodox Theology.

Free choice comes from the mind. The soul is a conduit to the flesh. The spirit is a conduit to the Father. As a dualist, I see the Tree of Life as accepting the Spirit into the mind. The creator of the flesh was the imperfect god, trying to create perfection, but falling short through his own imperfection. The Holy Spirit is perfection, that made Christ perfect in spirit, yet not flesh. Flesh was never perfect from the beginning. So it could not be created by perfection (the Father).

Jesus told the Jews that they had followed a liar and a murderer. The Father has never destroyed anything. The imperfect god is of destruction.

Man never had spirit (conduit to the true God, the Father) until Eve accepted it from the Tree of Knowledge (of God).

It's the same as the days when you, I and Soulgazer (James) used to debate.

I'm happy to hear of your conversion. Never accepted Smith and Young myself. Lived in Provo, Utah to study the Mormons for 3 months. Still have the books (BoM, D&C, and Pearl). But like all religions, there are the good then there is the ignorance of power (of flesh).

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have already answered this once and you refuse to address my response except to dismiss it. I have a feeling you will not answer because you know that Calvinism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself.



You are putting words in my mouth. I asked if man has free will or not. A yes or no answer will suffice.



Again, another dodge of the question. I asked what you believe, not what you think I believe.



So, to be clear, you believe God's will is his defining characteristic, and this happens in a vacuum independent of what the Bible says about Hs very nature, correct? Does God's will have to be consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love or not?

"I have a feeling you will not answer because you know that Calvinism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself."

Reply: I have a feeling that though you know that Arminianism requires God be responsible for man's fall and not man himself as He went ahead to create those inspite of knowing they won't believe, you still ask this question.


"You are putting words in my mouth".

Reply: If you don't admit that man's will can't be free without prior knowledge from God, then I need not put words.


"Again, another dodge of the question"

Reply: When you hold on to the same idea of God refusing salvation to some, can you ask such a question? You don't want to admit your dodging.


"Does God's will have to be consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love or not?"

Reply: Is your concept of God consistent with his goodness, justness, gracefulness, mercy and love when He hasn't refrained from creating those whom He knew will not anyway believe?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Do you believe that the elect of God will certainly be saved?
John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You are taking verses out of context. Who does Jesus give eternal life? Those that believe!

"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. " Jn 10:9-10

"Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:25-30

How do we become Jesus' sheep? We enter through the gate (faith in Jesus.) Of course those sheep that do not belong to Jesus do not believe! They have not entered the gate. Jesus isn't telling them that they can never enter the gate in the future to become His sheep - He's rebuking them for ignoring His words yet claiming to be part of the flock of God (a common OT symbol for Israel) - indeed claiming to be leaders of the flock of God!

John 10 is also a series of analogies on sheep that Jesus uses to make various points. As with parables, because the language is figurative, it is best to take each analogy for its point that He is making and not over-extrapolate to build a doctrine off perceived implications in the text.