Faith or Predestination

[SBC]

It will be a long wait because you know you cannot comply.

Perhaps you do not know the difference between "cannot" and "will not".
The BECAUSE, is WILL NOT, just as I said.

But kudos for your attempt to be intimidating. It failed.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps you do not know the difference between "cannot" and "will not".
The BECAUSE, is WILL NOT, just as I said.

But kudos for your attempt to be intimidating. It failed.

God Bless,
SBC

I know the difference.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The site crashed and lost my first response to this when it was almost done. For some reason this site is extremely glitchy on my computer

The church is pretty much in agreement that Jesus said,
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” John 6:44
I don’t believe there is any kind of split as to believing the truth of that particular statement, let alone a 50/50 split.
Whether a particular person in the church will receive the implications of the statement is another matter. Obviously, a good percentage will not.

The church is also in agreement that Christ said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Jn 12:32

The split isn't on the inerrancy of the Bible, but how these two verses (And other verses) relate and what is mandated by them.

The first verse mandates that the Father drawing man is required to allow man to come. The second verse shows that all men are drawn/allowed to come via the death and resurrection of Christ.

The 'split' is that Calvinists will either limit the scope of Christ's death to only drawing some men, or will not treat the second verse as relating to the first and believe some further method of drawing is necessary, while others in the church treat the second verse as the gracious method by which the Father draws all men through the death and resurrection of Christ, as the Father set up the method to be.

Calvinists simply quote what the scriptures clearly say about the inability of fallen men. These scriptures do indeed make the claim that truly understanding salvation and taking the salvation message to heart is something fallen men cannot do without help from on high.
“there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.” Romans 3:11

Rom 3:11 is about how Jews have no advantage over the Gentiles, for all are alike under the power of sin. Note that Rom 3:9-31 is not about the inability of man to respond to the gospel in faith! Quite the contrary! Rom 3 and the psalms Paul quotes are about man's corruption by sin and inability to be justified by works of the law.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Rom 3:20-26

“..a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”. 1 Corinthians 2:14

I Cor 2, in context, is Paul speaking "a message of wisdom to the mature" (I Cor 2:6) about the discernment the Spirit gives to Christians since we now have the Spirit to walk by and the mind of Christ. It isn't about unbelievers being unable to understand the gospel or respond in faith, but about unbelievers not being able to understand the things God has promised to those who love Him. Nothing in the chapter supports the view that unbelievers can't understand the gospel - it simply isn't what is being discussed. Rather, unbelievers can't understand things like walking by the Spirit, Spiritual growth, etc.

I’m sure that we would both agree that many do not accept what is taught in these and other “crystal clear” statements from God on the matter. There is a big difference between saying that many do not receive the sayings of God and claiming that God didn’t say those things in the scriptures.

Implying that other Christian's just aren't accepting of God's truth or are not receiving the sayings of God is an ad-hominem (and goading). The statements you point to are not 'crystal clear' in support of your claims, either. The verses you gave were out of their context, and you over-extrapolated from the text to apply it through a philisophical lens to other topics. None of them directly state that man is unable to respond to the gospel in faith (and indeed, the Romans passage clearly differentiated between man's inability to merit righteousness via the law to God's method of allowing us imputed righteousness through faith.)

Also the fact that God asks, or more correctly commands, all men to receive the message and believe does not speak to their ability to do so (being under a curse of abandonment to falsehood as they are according to the Book of Romans). The other verses which I have cited speak to that.

It is true that logic itself doesn't mandate that if someone commands something that it be obeyed or that the person be able to obey. However, we know from scripture and the revealed character of God that seeking the Lord is not beyond our ability to obey or beyond our reach (Deut 30:11). It's implied from the Centurion's speech that God has the authority to command and expect it obeyed (Lk 7:7-9.) More importantly, scripture never says that man cannot respond to the gospel in faith. When adjectives are used for man’s refusal to obey in general or turn from sin to faith in Christ, scripture tends to use terms like unwilling (Isa 30:9, Rev 2:21, Lk 13:34, Acts 19:9), rebellious (Ezek 2:3-5,) obstinate (Acts 19:9, Rom 10:21,) etc. – not that they were unable.

The terminology of many scripture passages also shows that the early church certainly thought the gospel might lead others to repent. Mk 6:12 – they preached with the intent that listeners might repent. Matt 3:2-3 John the Baptist is calling others to repent, in fulfillment of prophecy. If repentance can’t be done (changing one’s mind/way) – why would God have set up such a prophecy to begin with or had John the Baptist preach it? Etc. It is the revealed character of God in scripture that lets us know that man was unable to achieve salvation via the law, so God intervened to offer a method that was dependent on Christ’s work, and so the only requirement of man is to believe in Christ. If faith, too, was beyond man’s reach, then many passages in the NT about faith vs. works would make little sense.

Because they accept what the scriptures clearly say,

Howe about we assume for the sake of argument that both Calvinists and non-Calvinists are seeking to understand and accept what scripture says, vs. implying that one group is more spiritual than another or more accepting of God’s truth.

Calvinists hold that something else needs to happen for a select few cursed men to have faith. As usual they appeal to the scriptures to illustrate how it works in various ways.

I am still waiting to see an explicit scripture on the topic or even a good support verse for man’s inability to have faith, vs. out of context verses that are speaking of man’s inability to achieve salvation via works, or of non-Christians not being able to understand the things the Spirit helps believers understand, etc.

They do, however vary as to exactly how such invisible and inscrutable happenings actually work. While some insist on the term “regeneration”, some are more content with simply referring to God’s drawing men to Himself and opening the eyes of some even though they do not deserve such treatment and obviously do not seek God etc.

All Christians would agree that man doesn’t merit salvation. Jesus draws all men, not just a select few, to Him by His death – that is God’s grace and mercy, not our merit.

Although I reject the title of Calvinist – you could count me in the group people who think that way. We point to Lydia’s opened heart, Peter’s confession which was revealed by the Father to Him, and the enlightenment of the evil, unseeking, and undeserving Saul (Paul) among many others illustrations, my own case included, as support for the doctrine,

God can indeed open hearts to pay attention to the gospel message (As He did with Lydia) or open minds to understanding prophecies and scripture (As He did with the disciples in Lk 24:45.) He even sent Cornelius a vision so that he would be prepared and ready to hear the gospel (Acts 10:30-33.)

However, it’s quite a stretch to apply that as meaning that some form of special grace is required to understand the gospel (vs. the many general graces God gives to all, including the light of Christ revealed to man, conviction by the Spirit, etc.) or that others can’t respond in faith without some special intervention.

Indeed we see that even people with a veil over their hearts, making it difficult to understand the gospel or see prophecy fulfilled in Christ, only have that veil removed in Christ after they turn to the Lord – not that the veil needs removed so they can have faith. (II Cor 3:14-15)

While these example would not in and of themselves prove adequate to establish these doctrines, they do make the truth of the doctrines obvious IMO when bundled with the crystal clear statements acknowledged before considering them.

Again, the verses you gave were out of context and over-extrapolated, not ‘crystal clear.’

The doctrine of special calling, over against general calling, is logically inescapable when one believes what is said above

If one took the over-extrapolation/out of context verses as ‘proof’ that man was unable to respond to the gospel in faith, then that would logically lead to something needing to happen for anyone to be saved at all – but then run into other scriptural problems.

when they consider what is taught in the so called golden chain of salvation found in Romans 8. According to that passage – all those God calls in a certain way will be justified. We know that all men called in the general call will not be justified (many are called but few are chosen). All will not exercise saving faith and be justified.

Rom 8:28-30 says:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, since they are the called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

‘Those being the called according to His purpose’ is a further descriptor of ‘those who love the Lord.’ ‘Being’ is a present participle – an active state, not an event in the past. Called is an adjective in the Greek.

They are the called according to His purpose because they love the Lord. Rom 9:10-30 shows that this purpose was that righteousness be by faith, not works or ethnicity. Eph 3:1-12 again shows that God’s purpose was for Jew and Gentile alike to approach God through faith. II Tim 1:9-11 shows that the grace and God’s purpose of salvation was there for us since the beginning of time, but only now revealed in history through Christ at the cross and the gospel message. Eph 1:1-14 shows God’s predestined plan before time that those who put their faith in Christ be conformed to the image of the Son and chosen as a holy people to the praise of His glory. Etc.

Those God foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son – not predestined them to have faith. Those of faith are conformed to the image of the Son (Phil 3:9-11, I Pet 1, etc.) God, then, foreknows those who will receive the gospel and have faith in Christ.

(Again, predestination in the Greek refers to boundaries/limits on something being set up before hand – not a specific action or movement within those boundaries.)

Those who God in His foreknowledge predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son (believers) He also called and justified (not gave faith. Justification is through faith, so also follows it.) Then, God glorifies these people who love Him and who are the called according to His purpose! I Thess 1:10-12

Nothing in this passage says that God called a select few to have faith, as everything on the list (besides foreknowledge) is something that follows faith. A strong case can be made that the reference to foreknowledge is a reference to God knowing who will respond in faith, and having the plan of salvation predestined for those who respond in faith that they might be conformed to the image of the Son, etc.

It is necessary therefore to state that there is a difference between the general call issued to all men and the special or effectual call issued to those predestined to be conformed to the image of God’s Son as seen in the scriptures.

Not really. The Romans passage says the ones who love God are “the called according to His purpose” (vs. those called/invited in general of which few are chosen) – but the passage does not say they are especially called *to* love God or have faith. Since conforming to Christ follows faith, the passage does not demand that God predestine them to have faith. The implication seems strong that God’s foreknowledge is that God knows who will have faith and so predestines those through His plan and purpose before time to be conformed to Christ.

All good systematic theologies have agreed on that doctrine since thorough systematic theologies have been written for the church (based on scripture only)

Commentaries and Bible teachers have not always held the same interpretation of the verses you have given nor has the Calvinist interpretation of Rom 8:28-30. I don’t know whether or not it is a common teaching of Systematic theology books, having only read through a couple – but even if many modern authors took that view it would not prove it.

Calvinists do not teach that God specifically authors every event which happens. They teach that God decides which things He will allow to happen while emphatically saying that His predestination of everything which happens in no way infringes on the wills of men and angels.

Not all Calvinists teach that God specifically authors every event, but it is a common teaching of Calvinists where I live. (The ‘God must push around every molecule of the universe or it will implode’ view.)

However, even the less extreme view that God must ‘allow’ everything to happen seems unsupported by scripture. God can and does defer judgement, yes, and does not always stop something from occurring even though He theoretically could, but that is not the same as allowing everything.

“
color:#001320;background:#FDFEFF">They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal--something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” Jer 19:5

The definition of allow is to 'give permission for or legally permit'; 'to grant something to a person as a right'; 'to permit via neglect or oversight'; to 'deliberately set apart time or opportunity for', 'to approve or sanction'. Allow implies granting or conceding a right to do something, or at least the complete absence of intent to hinder something.
It is clear from scripture that God does not legally permit evil (Psa 45:7), he does not treat evil as a right or necessity (James 1:13,) He does not permit evil via oversight or neglect (Job 34:21, Psa 33:12-15,) He does not deliberately make opportunity for evil to occur (James 1:13-15), and He does not approve or sanction evil (Jer 7:30-31, I Pet 3:10-12).

In fact, God -forbids- evil, hates it, does not permit it, punishes it, and asks us all to turn from it; all the exact opposite of allowance. (I Pet 3:9, Rom 12:9-17, Prov 8:13, Jer 25:5, Isa 1:16, Rom 6:15-17, Psa 26:5, Prov 24:19-20, etc).

Now, God can set up natural laws, physical limits, etc., limit options, directly intervene to influence someone so that history plays out as He has prophesied, interfere with natural law, etc. But He doesn’t allow sin – He judges it. He doesn’t allow people to disbelieve – those who disbelieve remain condemned precisely because they aren’t obeying the Lord and turning to God in faith.

He predestined everything which occurs in His creation to so occur. Belief in His omniscience demands that we believe that doctrine.

That is a misunderstanding of the Greek word prohorizo, filtering it through English connotations like ‘destiny’ instead of examining what the Greek means.

“4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine. [4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]”
Strong's Greek: 4309. προορίζω (proorizó) -- to predetermine, foreordain


Predestination is also not the determination of every action or event or thought that occurs in creation. The word itself means to “to mark out beforehand’; to pre-establish limits and boundaries. Specifically, this word references how God set limits/boundaries/laws upon everything before creation. He set the laws of physics, placed the boundaries of the sea, determined the eternal plan by which mankind would be saved, etc (Prov 8:22-31, Eph 1:3-10, Eph 3:10-11, Job 38:33, Rom 8:29, etc).

In the plan of salvation, God also predestined it to include the Gentiles, not just the Jews (Eph 3:2-6, Rom 3:21-31, Rom 9:1-26, Rom 15:5-13, John 1:11-13, Isa 45:9-10, Rom 9:11-16, etc).

God limits and bounds what can happen under the sun, such as the boundaries of nations or the natural laws of physics, and His purpose has been predestined before time (that Christ would die to bring salvation to man, etc.) God can especially interfere – such as Jesus calming the sea that had to obey His word – but He doesn’t have to pick out everything that happens in creation simply because He is all powerful and could. His character/purpose are also factors.

God knew from the beginning everything which would happen if He acted in certain ways in the beginning and in innumerable ways ongoing throughout history. There was no chance that, if He acted in those specific ways, what He knew would happen as a result would not happen. Those events were predestined to happen from the split second, as it were, that He decreed that He would so act.He chose to so act in those certain ways out of His wise and unfettered will. In so choosing to act – He was predestining everything which surely would follow those actions, Those things include mundane things which are not directly pertaining to the will of men and they include things which come about because of the choices made out of the wills of men (who are created in His image and able to make meaningful choices). How God could hold men, who have their very being in Him and who’s actions are destined by God to occur, responsible for their choices if He is sovereign in the way the scriptures show Him is admittedly a bit of a mystery. But we can’t just duck that mystery by showing Him to be less the sovereign God than the scriptures clearly tell us He is.

God’s plan Has been set from the beginning, and so He has often influenced history to maintain that plan or accomplish other purposes (Such as judgement on a nation.) God also knows the end from the beginning – every action man will take and could potentially take – it is a large leap from that to believe that every mundane action is pre-determined by God vs. foreknown.

God being sovereign doesn’t mean He has to control every variable, but that He is able to punish disobedience, can command angels and the laws of nature, can supersede the laws of nature, can account for variables in regards to His plan, can delegate tasks and reward the obedient and punish the disobedient, etc.

How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
How does God's sovereignty and mankind's free will work together in salvation?
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation?
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?

I don't have the time or, to be more precise, I don't have the inclination to.

Lol – I’m a mom with a toddler and the next due in less than three weeks with a house to get ready, plus most of my time online is spent moderating a different Bible site. I guess I’m the opposite – I have the inclination but not the time. Through posts like this I can see if there are any support verses for a theory I have not yet considered in depth, and determine new topics to study or write about.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Such as? You didn't give any examples.

It's not really relevant to the thread, so I will try and be brief with my examples:

- Knowing that biologically one is a man, but believing and proclaiming that one is a woman; knowing one has all four limbs, but believing one is an amputee; etc. Disorders of this nature are called dysphorias in psychology, and the tension of believing and acting on something that one inwardly knows is a lie often leads to social disfunction and even higher suicide rates.

- Knowing that God is real, but telling yourself (and others) that you believe He does not exist. This can be found with some atheists who cling to their belief that God does not exist - yet show they do believe it by the massive anger they harbor towards God, for example.

- Lying to oneself that one is not a sinner, even when one knows it is true. This leads to the 'defensive' posturing of many who claim they are not deserving of Hell and do anything to try and justify their sin and fight against the conviction of it.

- A Christian who knows and has believed one thing for many years (Such as homosexual activity being wrong) but then tries to choose to believe the opposite so as to not cause friction with friends or unbelievers. Or, the believer who falls away in a time of testing - rejecting faith because of the hardship of the trial, not because he suddenly decided it was all a lie, such as in Lk 8:13.

Naturally, such a state of being leads to a lot of tension! Scripture uses the term 'double-minded' to describe people with opposed beliefs like this (James 4:8), as the conflict is like one mind fighting against another.

For most things though, I would say we do not subjectively choose what we believe, but rather come to a point where we have accepted or rejected enough evidence/testimony etc. that we respond to a theory or claim as true or false. So 'choose faith' is not a great term to describe our receiving the message and responding in faith, as faith is more of an acceptance or reception of persuading evidence than an overt choice that we want to believe something or not.

 

[Hammster]

It's not really relevant to the thread, so I will try and be brief with my examples:

- Knowing that biologically one is a man, but believing and proclaiming that one is a woman; knowing one has all four limbs, but believing one is an amputee; etc. Disorders of this nature are called dysphorias in psychology, and the tension of believing and acting on something that one inwardly knows is a lie often leads to social disfunction and even higher suicide rates.

- Knowing that God is real, but telling yourself (and others) that you believe He does not exist. This can be found with some atheists who cling to their belief that God does not exist - yet show they do believe it by the massive anger they harbor towards God, for example.

- Lying to oneself that one is not a sinner, even when one knows it is true. This leads to the 'defensive' posturing of many who claim they are not deserving of Hell and do anything to try and justify their sin and fight against the conviction of it.

- A Christian who knows and has believed one thing for many years (Such as homosexual activity being wrong) but then tries to choose to believe the opposite so as to not cause friction with friends or unbelievers. Or, the believer who falls away in a time of testing - rejecting faith because of the hardship of the trial, not because he suddenly decided it was all a lie, such as in Lk 8:13.

Naturally, such a state of being leads to a lot of tension! Scripture uses the term 'double-minded' to describe people with opposed beliefs like this (James 4:8), as the conflict is like one mind fighting against another.

For most things though, I would say we do not subjectively choose what we believe, but rather come to a point where we have accepted or rejected enough evidence/testimony etc. that we respond to a theory or claim as true or false. So 'choose faith' is not a great term to describe our receiving the message and responding in faith, as faith is more of an acceptance or reception of persuading evidence than an overt choice that we want to believe something or not.

I think we basically agree.

 

[SBC]

Now, you seem to bring in two choices:

1. The first is about whether to accept or reject the God given ability.

You have God given ability is make choices YOU choose to make, based on the amount of Knowledge YOU choose to gain....or not.

2. The second is about whether to accept or reject salvation.

You have the ability to choose.

So according to you, the claim of a God given ability given to all, seems to carry no meaning.

Sure it does. If noone made you join this site and post comments; then it is what you chose to do.

Again, the question is, why don't many choose to accept the God given ability?

Gee, I don't know, maybe people simply would rather be told what to do.

Is it because God has not elected them?

If you are talking now about salvation. You would have to ask a person who has not chosen to effect their salvation.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Si_monfaith]

Faith first in the word (small w=knowledge of the Father). Jesus spoke the Fathers words, not his own. Through his words we see the love of the Father towards us and reflect it towards others. The works are the physical actions that show this faith and love within us. It is a cycle that continues, beginning in and as Christ.


Jesus said:
"Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life. For the word is like a grain of wheat; when someone had sown it, he had faith in it; and when it had sprouted, he loved it, because he had seen many grains in place of one. And when he had worked, he was saved, because he had prepared it for food, (and) again he left (some) to sow. So also can you yourselves receive the kingdom of heaven; unless you receive this through knowledge, you will not be able to find it."-Secret James

Faith is given by God or produced by man?

 

[Si_monfaith]

You do not understand time being relative to God (time over the last 100 years has been experientially shown to be relative and nothing has shown time to not be relative). We have no problem believing God sees everyone at the same time and can process his reaction to it, but seeing everything at the same time throughout all of time is difficult.

In God’s time frame there is no “beforehand” as it relates to man it is all the present.

You might think about it like this: “if there is a prior time in God’s time frame to deciding to not create a limited free willed person, than God would know all the possible choices that person could make but not the free will choice the person did make, since they will never exist. As soon as God does decide to make a person that person is born, lives, makes free will choices dies and goes to heaven or hell, so there is no turning back and redoing history since the history of that person exists from the beginning of time (God deciding to make the person). God cannot change history.

We have no problem believing God sees everyone at the same time and can process his reaction to it, but seeing everything at the same time throughout all of time is difficult.

So what is the meaning of foreknowledge?

I think you strongly believe in unconditional election.

 

[Si_monfaith]

What? God only has Godly type Love which he extends to everyone, but that type of love is pure charity and people will not accept God's love as charity, so the transaction of true Love is not completed.

On the one hand you admit that Paul was forced by God. On the other hand you seem to say that God has only Godly type of Love and so didn't force Paul!

It sounds contradictory!

 

[Si_monfaith]

You cannot keep from eventually sinning under your own power (this was true of Adam and Eve also). But if I am going to be held accountable for my sins I have to be able to keep from doing any of my sins at any particular time (which does not mean I can be sinless). Are you accountable for your sins?

Talking of accountability, do you believe in Romans 5:13?

 

[Si_monfaith]

What do you like to call yourself?

Do your believe the 5 points of Calvinism?

You have espoused all of them in this thread if I am not mistaken.

You may like to call yourself something other than Calvinist. But for the purpose of this discussion you would likely be considered one by most here.

If you don't want to be considered a Calvinist then stop asking rhetorical questions meant to elicit responses which you can then critique and just go ahead and tell everyone what's what.

Where you have made definitive statements about what you believe IMO you have said some incorrect things. Most of them have sounded distinctly Calvinist, particularly regarding so call limited atonement.

Of course it does.

Predestination in that verse includes the selection of those He foreknew (whatever you happen to consider that word to mean exactly). Those are individuals.

And your point?


We are justified through faith and without faith we are not justified.

The work of Christ at Calvary forms the basis of our salvation. But it is not the entire requirement for salvation.

As I said, we are not justified by Jesus' work in and of itself. If that were true then you and I and everyone He died for would have been justified from the split second He finished that work.

I did not say that we produce faith ourselves apart from His grace. I have consistently said otherwise.

We do exercise faith. Whether we obtained that faith by grace or worked it up out of ourselves is a moot point.

His grace cannot repent from sins, believe the gospel, and confess a trust in the work of Christ for salvation. Grace is not a person.

That is correct. I do not believe in limited atonement as usually taught by modern day Calvinists.

I do not believe that Christ died for only a portion of mankind. I believe He died for all mankind and, indeed, bore the sins of the entire world.

Now - if you meant by limited atonement that only some will have the work of His atonement applied to their lives through faith and be saved from the wrath to come while others will not - I would tell you that I believe that - just as Calvin and millions of other Bible believers believed it before me.

Predestination in that verse includes the selection of those He foreknew (whatever you happen to consider that word to mean exactly). Those are individuals.

If both predestination and election now refer to the selection of individuals, what is the difference between them?

And your point

Man's will is not free but depends on the knowledge and understanding given by God's will (daniel 4:32,34).

We are justified through faith and without faith we are not justified

If as you agree that faith cannot be produced by man, do you accept that it's a gift from God as in acts 3:16: "the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all".

I did not say that we produce faith ourselves apart from His grace. I have consistently said otherwise.

We do exercise faith. Whether we obtained that faith by grace or worked it up out of ourselves is a moot point.

Man can't produce faith. Fine. Even the exercising of faith called as believing is also God given as in Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him".

His grace cannot repent from sins, believe the gospel, and confess a trust in the work of Christ for salvation. Grace is not a person.

Then how does 1corinthians 15:10 say, " I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me".
Here grace indeed worked through Paul.

 

[Si_monfaith]

The second does not logically follow from the first. There are many reasons a person might refuse a gift.

In the case of salvation through Christ, many refuse to respond in faith for a number of reasons (none of which have to do with the gift being insufficient or their inability to go through the one door God set up for them):

- Obstinance (Rom 10:16-21)
- Satan interfering to snatch the word away from their hearts (Lk 8:12)
- Fear evil deeds will be exposed (Jn 3:20)
- Embracing deceipt and refusing to know God (Jer 9:6)
- Ignorance due to hardness of heart (Eph 4:18)
- Craving sensuality (Eph 4:19)
- Refusal to listen (Jer 13:10, Heb 12:25)
Etc.

Man's unfaithfulness does not mullify God's faithfulness (Rom 3:3-4)

I have frequently engaged with athiests and other self-styled intellectuals on many topics - but after discourse over various matters of science and history, I have found that there always is an underlying issue. It's not the surface issue of veracity that is their stumbling block. Rather, it always seems to come down to things like blaming God for something bad that happened or being hurt by a proclaimed Christian which has made them resistant to the gospel, or not wanting to turn from a favorite sin, etc.

The second does not logically follow from the first. There are many reasons a person might refuse a gift.

You had stated, "God has made it possible for anyone to receive the gift" but now you say that that gift can be rejected!

So the possibility is if no use, right?

Now the question comes back to square one: Why don't all accept Jesus?

Secondly, do the reasons you had stated for people to reject Jesus apply to the elect as well?

 

[Si_monfaith]

We are saved through faith, not given faith because we are saved. (II Tim 3:15, Eph 2:8, etc.)

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Eph 1:13

Likewise, we are justified through faith - not before.

"And in Him everyone believing is justified from all things from which you were not able to be justified in "the Law of Moses." Acts 13:35

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom 3:28

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Rom 5:1

You haven't yet answered as to whether you agree that faith is the free gift of God.

Either faith must be produced by humans or a free gift from God. No middle ground. Faith doesn't come by itself.

You agree that faith cannot be produced by humans. So definitely it must be a free gift from God.

If so faith cannot be a condition to be fulfilled by man in order to be saved and justified. It is a gift of God.

Which proves that God has already saved and justified us through the work of His Son and faith is an internal evidence of His accomplished work for us.
Romans 5:9: "being now justified by his blood".

 

[Si_monfaith]

Define unconditional election - and who it pertains to; God, man?

Thanks,
God Bless
SBC

Conditional election claims that humans are sovereign in choosing Jesus and that faith is produced by humans.

Unconditional election (UE) says that God is sovereign and chooses who will be given to Jesus. John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. UE says that faith is a gift of God through His Son (Acts 3:16: the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all).

 

[Si_monfaith]

You have God given ability is make choices YOU choose to make, based on the amount of Knowledge YOU choose to gain....or not.



You have the ability to choose.



Sure it does. If noone made you join this site and post comments; then it is what you chose to do.



Gee, I don't know, maybe people simply would rather be told what to do.



If you are talking now about salvation. You would have to ask a person who has not chosen to effect their salvation.

God Bless,
SBC

Summarizing...

1. God gives ability to believe in Jesus.
2. Still many reject. Why?
3. You don't know the reason.
4. It means conditional election cannot show why all are not saved.
5. It then means God has elected some to believe in His Son.

 

[Phantasman]

Faith is given by God or produced by man?

Neither.

 

[Marvin Knox]

If both predestination and election now refer to the selection of individuals, what is the difference between them?

I have explained that. But one more time:

Predestination does not refer to the selection of individuals. Nor does it imply the direct authorship of every single happening by God as is often falsely charged by non-Calvinists. It has to do with what God has decreed beforehand will and will not be allowed to happen in His creation whether that happening is caused directly by Him or is caused by the 2nd causes referred to in the authoritative Calvinist document - The Westminster Confession of Faith.

Election has to do with the selection, for His own reasons which we do not know for sure in every case, of certain individuals to be acted directly upon by Him in order that they will be enabled to do the things He has predestined to occur.

The words are different and they are different theological concepts.

Man's will is not free but depends on the knowledge and understanding given by God's will (daniel 4:32,34).

Of course. No need to state the obvious.

No one here would suggest otherwise whether they be Calvinist or non-Calvinist.

Whether that knowledge and understanding is given by God directly or indirectly in the case of enlightenment concerning the truth of the gospel is one of the subjects we are discussing here.

If as you agree that faith cannot be produced by man, do you accept that it's a gift from God as in acts 3:16: "the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all".

Man can't produce faith. Fine. Even the exercising of faith called as believing is also God given as in Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him".

Of course I believe those things. I have affirmed those beliefs several times in this thread alone. Others here do not and that is another subject we are discussing which is somewhat related to the first subject mentioned above.

I
Then how does 1corinthians 15:10 say, " I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me".
Here grace indeed worked through Paul.

The ability to repent, believe, and confess are made possible by the grace of God working within us. But grace itself does not repent, believe, and confess.

Grace has no need to get saved in that manner. Grace is not a person.

We believe in a Trinity of persons in the one true God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We do not believe in the persons we call Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Grace and whatever attribute or activity of God you would care to name as persons.

It looks like you've managed to find something to argue about with at least half a dozen people here in this thread alone. That should keep you busy - even if I choose not to participate with you again.

I would like you to tell us exactly what you believe in a nutshell though.

That would be much more productive here than your asking rhetorical questions of everyone just to be able to come back on them with another one after they have answered you.

 

[Phantasman]

Tertullian strikes again.

I love being part of a family.

Ephesians:
9 And to make clear unto all men what the fellowship of the mystery is, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who hath created all things by Jesus Christ,

10 d]">[d]To the intent, that now unto principalities and powers in heavenly places, might be known by the Church the e]">[e]manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the f]">[f]eternal purpose, which he wrought in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 By whom we have boldness and entrance with confidence, by faith in him.

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for your sakes, which is your glory.

14 g]">[g]For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 (Of whom is named the whole h]">[h]family in heaven and in earth)

Where is the mother? No family is complete without a mother, is it?

My mother is the Holy Spirit. Just as it was Jesus.

Looks to me like it still hides from many.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

[QUOTE="Si_monfaith, post: 71765927, member: 385136"

Either faith must be produced by humans or a free gift from God. No middle ground. Faith doesn't come by itself.

You agree that faith cannot be produced by humans. So definitely it must be a free gift from God.
[/QUOTE]

That is a False dichotomy.

Accepting a gift doesn't mean one 'produces' the gift nor that one produces acceptance.

Faith is not produced by either unbelievers or believers. Believers produce fruit of the spirit and virtues to 'add to' faith (II Pet 1:3-11, Lk 8:15, etc.), but faith is not something anyone manufactures or makes.

Like the parable of the sower shows, faith is not the production of the seed or plant or fruit, but the reception of the seed into the soil.

Neither is faith a direct gift from God (although the gracious offer of salvation through faith is, and so is the evidence for Christ and conviction of the Spirit to all men on which our persuasion is based.)

Rather, our faith is receiving the message (Lk 8:15, Acts 17:11, Jn 12:48 [rejecting rather than receiving in that case], Acts 2:41), believing it (Gal 3:2-7, Heb 4:2, Acts 10:21), and holding fast to that conviction/continuing in that faith (I Cor 15:2, Jn 3:16, I Tim 1:18-19.)

The term 'receive' scripture uses for our receiving the message is "lambánō," which means to "actively accept with initiative" what is available/offered.

If so faith cannot be a condition to be fulfilled by man in order to be saved and justified. It is a gift of God.

Scripture would seem to disagree with you there:

Jn 6:27-29: "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”"

It would seem like God 'requiring' a specific thing we must do would make it a condition.

"We...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." Gal 2:16

Faith is not a work of the law, and we have to put our faith in Christ to be justified!

Which proves that God has already saved and justified us through the work of His Son and faith is an internal evidence of His accomplished work for us.
Romans 5:9: "being now justified by his blood".

Rom 9:5 does not say we are saved and justified prior to faith. It is speaking of believers being justified by His blood, not those justified becoming believers.

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, (not, since we have been given faith that we were justified) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." Rom 9:1-3

If you believe, -then- you are saved! (John 11:40, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 12:44-50, Mark 16:16, Rom 10:9-13, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:29-31 etc)

"...He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” - Acts 16:29-31

 

[Butch5]

The scriptures show that Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin and offer reconciliation between God and man, forgiveness, and eternal life to sinful humanity. How does God indicate in His word this gift of salvation and grace is applied to one's life?

I believe that according to the Bible a person is saved by trusting Jesus Christ as their Savior in faith and believing the gospel message that He has paid for the sins of the world, including their personal sins, risen from the grave in victory over sin and death offering forgiveness and eternal life to all who believe.

According to the Calvinistic theology as expressed in TULIP people are so (Totally depraved) that they have no ability to believe the gospel. God predestines, based on no condition (Unconditional election) on the part the person. God selects some people, but not all (Limited atonement), regenerating them and causing them to believe the gospel by (Irresistible grace).

So what do others think the message of the scriptures says about receiving salvation? Is it faith or predestination?

The Calvinist doctrine of Predestination is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Predestination has to do with Israel and God's plan to fulfill His promises to Abraham. It's not about God choosing one person over another to be saved.