Faith or Predestination

[Si_monfaith]

If you read the verses you will see that Faith that saves is given by God. So it follows that we are saved because predestined us to be saved.

Faith that saves

Faith that saves?

The elect are already saved and justified by the death and resurrection of His Son.

He gives us faith which is an assurance that He has indeed saved and justified us already.

 

[Tolworth John]

The elect are already saved and justified by the death and resurrection of His Son.

And as that salvation was planned before the reation of the world, you have again agreed in predestiation.

 

[SBC]

So God didn't give you the ability to believe? Nature have you? Is nature a being?

God gave me..
A seed, it's own body, and His breath of life that brought my body into living.
He formed my body, with a heart and blood, to be the life of my body.
My body also has numerous intricate components that allow my body to function in a fashion suitable to exist on earth.

GOD DID GIVE ME THE ABILITY to BELIEVE.

That is not unique, as it applies to others as well.

God claims to have created and made ALL things.

I have the ability to exercise my "senses" (taste, touch, sight, etc) and observe what God claims to have created and made.

I can learn of "other" gods, statues, leaders so called gods, at times, and decide if those things, have or are "making" "such same things as God claims to have created and made".

I can look about learn and observe if MEN, have made planets, water, moons, gold, etc.

I can look to Gods claims and learn and observe what He has claimed to have created and made, and decide to believe that His claims apply to Him, OR NOT.

That is the very basic individuals option to choose to BELIEVE, what the individual decides is Best suited for him to Trust to believe, based on that individuals own observation.

The "first" men, did not have the advantage of "history", or "testimonies" of other men -
Thus for "them" - God had communication with them - differently then now.
Meaning -
Men were told VIA a voice, a vision, claiming to be of God - of WHAT would happen, before it happened -perpetuating a type of proof of God - giving men an option to BELIEVE it, TRUST it was from God, or NOT.

This continued for generations - And from those "events", early men who experienced those events, began orally repeating their experiences to younger generations. And record keeping of written testimonies began being developed.....AND?

Those testimonies of oral and written historical accounts became MY option to read, learn, discover, and trust to believe OR NOT.

And? It is the testimonies of other men, written, available for men today, to hear and read - AS our sources for men to LEARN "ABOUT" God, which is simply called "KNOWLEDGE". It is our option to believe the knowledge or not.

You or anyone has the ABILITY to believe, just as you or anyone has the ABILITY to not believe.

IOW - Belief is not something you are naturally born with. Belief is not forced on you. It comes from your own desires, diligence, decisions of what to trust, and experiences.

God blesses ALL, with what he has provided on this earth for ourselves to discover and use for good.

However God has a reservation of Blessings, particularly for those WHO CHOOSE to Believe in Him. Meaning there are Blessings that ONLY apply to those who choose to believe in Him. And those who choose to NOT Believe in Him, will forego and not receive those particular blessings.

And blessings, can also be called, gifts, rewards, etc.

NATURE is not a Being.

God created the EARTH (which IS dry land)
God made Water in, around, about the earth, and Atmosphere, Air, around, the earth.
And FROM out of the existing Earth, God created and made "things",
.....ie plants and trees.
.....and "vessels"
.....ie animals, mankind.
In the vessels, (things, bodies) of such vessels, God imparted LIFE from Him, that such things would be "individual" vessels, (ie bodies).

The plants, trees, animals, man, are ALL a "KIND" of thing unto it's own, "grouping".
And the "KIND" of things, each with its OWN SEED, reproduce it's SAME "KIND" of thing,
from its OWN "mixing" of a male seed with a female seed.

All of the THINGS that come FROM the created earth are called NATURAL things.
Beings, are typically reserved as "natural" things that have been given the BREATH of LIFE (ie a living soul), from God. ie Animals and Mankind.

When the LIFE (ie the BLOOD) of such Animals and Mankind - STOPS flowing and beating the heart - those "things" begin Naturally DYING.
As those things begin DYING, the (living soul) departs the dying body, and
"goes to where God sends it" - to WAIT for judgement.
The dead body, goes BACK to the Earth, from whence it came. - to WAIT 4 judgement.

Gen 1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,
[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


Gen 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

Num 11
[23] And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Lev 17 [11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

Ezek 18 [4] Behold, all souls are mine;

Ecc 3 [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Si_monfaith]

God gave me..
A seed, it's own body, and His breath of life that brought my body into living.
He formed my body, with a heart and blood, to be the life of my body.
My body also has numerous intricate components that allow my body to function in a fashion suitable to exist on earth.

GOD DID GIVE ME THE ABILITY to BELIEVE.

That is not unique, as it applies to others as well.

God claims to have created and made ALL things.

I have the ability to exercise my "senses" (taste, touch, sight, etc) and observe what God claims to have created and made.

I can learn of "other" gods, statues, leaders so called gods, at times, and decide if those things, have or are "making" "such same things as God claims to have created and made".

I can look about learn and observe if MEN, have made planets, water, moons, gold, etc.

I can look to Gods claims and learn and observe what He has claimed to have created and made, and decide to believe that His claims apply to Him, OR NOT.

That is the very basic individuals option to choose to BELIEVE, what the individual decides is Best suited for him to Trust to believe, based on that individuals own observation.

The "first" men, did not have the advantage of "history", or "testimonies" of other men -
Thus for "them" - God had communication with them - differently then now.
Meaning -
Men were told VIA a voice, a vision, claiming to be of God - of WHAT would happen, before it happened -perpetuating a type of proof of God - giving men an option to BELIEVE it, TRUST it was from God, or NOT.

This continued for generations - And from those "events", early men who experienced those events, began orally repeating their experiences to younger generations. And record keeping of written testimonies began being developed.....AND?

Those testimonies of oral and written historical accounts became MY option to read, learn, discover, and trust to believe OR NOT.

And? It is the testimonies of other men, written, available for men today, to hear and read - AS our sources for men to LEARN "ABOUT" God, which is simply called "KNOWLEDGE". It is our option to believe the knowledge or not.

You or anyone has the ABILITY to believe, just as you or anyone has the ABILITY to not believe.

IOW - Belief is not something you are naturally born with. Belief is not forced on you. It comes from your own desires, diligence, decisions of what to trust, and experiences.

God blesses ALL, with what he has provided on this earth for ourselves to discover and use for good.

However God has a reservation of Blessings, particularly for those WHO CHOOSE to Believe in Him. Meaning there are Blessings that ONLY apply to those who choose to believe in Him. And those who choose to NOT Believe in Him, will forego and not receive those particular blessings.

And blessings, can also be called, gifts, rewards, etc.

NATURE is not a Being.

God created the EARTH (which IS dry land)
God made Water in, around, about the earth, and Atmosphere, Air, around, the earth.
And FROM out of the existing Earth, God created and made "things",
.....ie plants and trees.
.....and "vessels"
.....ie animals, mankind.
In the vessels, (things, bodies) of such vessels, God imparted LIFE from Him, that such things would be "individual" vessels, (ie bodies).

The plants, trees, animals, man, are ALL a "KIND" of thing unto it's own, "grouping".
And the "KIND" of things, each with its OWN SEED, reproduce it's SAME "KIND" of thing,
from its OWN "mixing" of a male seed with a female seed.

All of the THINGS that come FROM the created earth are called NATURAL things.
Beings, are typically reserved as "natural" things that have been given the BREATH of LIFE (ie a living soul), from God. ie Animals and Mankind.

When the LIFE (ie the BLOOD) of such Animals and Mankind - STOPS flowing and beating the heart - those "things" begin Naturally DYING.
As those things begin DYING, the (living soul) departs the dying body, and
"goes to where God sends it" - to WAIT for judgement.
The dead body, goes BACK to the Earth, from whence it came. - to WAIT 4 judgement.

Gen 1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,
[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


Gen 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

Num 11
[23] And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

Lev 17 [11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

Ezek 18 [4] Behold, all souls are mine;

Ecc 3 [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

God Bless,
SBC

GOD DID GIVE ME THE ABILITY to BELIEVE.

That is not unique, as it applies to others as well.

If so why don't all believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[SBC]

Can't faith which is an assurance of being saved, be given by God?

Faith and Belief - are connected, and often referenced as being the same things - but are not exactly the same things.

Belief is the individuals choice.

When an individual chooses to believe - that IS the mans action.

Gods response is to foster the mans belief - by Gods action.

Gods ACTION is to "enlighten" the man - meaning provide the man with "knowledge", which is called the Word of God. (Gods Word out of His mouth, as recorded in testimony, or words out of mens mouths, that God has approved).

Gods ACTION is to "encourage" the man to follow, hear, read, learn His Knowledge -
Gods ACTION is to "give the man blessings" for the mans effort to follow, hear, read, learn His Knowledge.

Thus it is a sequence of events - per the mans action and Gods action that is "building" or otherwise causing FAITH to be realized or otherwise effected.

As long as BOTH, (man and God) continue these actions, the EFFECT, (result) is beginning, building, growing, expanding, deepening, of the AMOUNT of FAITH, that becomes what the individual develops.

Some men are beginners, with little faith, others are diligent continuing with a fair amount of faith, and others are steeped in a very deep faith.

And there are those who: at any stage of their faith -
1) can STOP believing, Stop following, and forego their faith,
...meaning they have effected their own choice to no longer have faith.
...meaning they no longer will continue receiving enlightenment from God.
...and they are called, one who has lost faith.

2) can ALSO continue, and keep learning, trusting, believing, enlarging their faith and
...receiving enlightenment from God.

3) can ALSO at ANY point in a mans living time-frame a man can CHOOSE to CALL out
...the Lords Name and announce TO HIM (not the mans neighbor, or pastor, or relative),
...but TO the Lord Himself, and declare an OATH, to from there and forever BE Faithful
...TO God, as Their God.

4) WHEN a man does (number 3 ^) in his own full truth - THAT is when...

5) Gods responsive ACTION is to make spiritual changes within the man - new heart, receiving of Gods Seed, restoring the mans soul (SAVING), quickening the mans spirit
(BORN AGAIN), forgiving all sin against God; washing, sanctifying, justifying the mans body, and Gods Spirit indwelling within the man, Forever being with the man, in his natural and spiritual life.

6) From there forward, that man belongs ONLY to ONE GOD; thee Lord God Almighty.

So you have bought faith by paying the price of deciding to believe Him and seeking God?

No. I have decided to believe, and decided to be diligent in learning knowledge ABOUT God, and decided to believe and trust the knowledge I have learned, and decided to keep following, and have accepted the results of my faith deepening, and have decided to accept my option of giving my life to God, for Him to perform ACTIONS He said He would, and am convinced that the blessings in my life are effected By God, and am thankful TO Him, for my blessings, which are numerous.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

If so why don't all believe in Jesus Christ?

Because they choose to use their own natural ability to NOT believe....just as I have chosen to use my own natural ability TO believe.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

Faith and Belief - are connected, and often referenced as being the same things - but are not exactly the same things.

Belief is the individuals choice.

When an individual chooses to believe - that IS the mans action.

Gods response is to foster the mans belief - by Gods action.

Gods ACTION is to "enlighten" the man - meaning provide the man with "knowledge", which is called the Word of God. (Gods Word out of His mouth, as recorded in testimony, or words out of mens mouths, that God has approved).

Gods ACTION is to "encourage" the man to follow, hear, read, learn His Knowledge -
Gods ACTION is to "give the man blessings" for the mans effort to follow, hear, read, learn His Knowledge.

Thus it is a sequence of events - per the mans action and Gods action that is "building" or otherwise causing FAITH to be realized or otherwise effected.

As long as BOTH, (man and God) continue these actions, the EFFECT, (result) is beginning, building, growing, expanding, deepening, of the AMOUNT of FAITH, that becomes what the individual develops.

Some men are beginners, with little faith, others are diligent continuing with a fair amount of faith, and others are steeped in a very deep faith.

And there are those who: at any stage of their faith -
1) can STOP believing, Stop following, and forego their faith,
...meaning they have effected their own choice to no longer have faith.
...meaning they no longer will continue receiving enlightenment from God.
...and they are called, one who has lost faith.

2) can ALSO continue, and keep learning, trusting, believing, enlarging their faith and
...receiving enlightenment from God.

3) can ALSO at ANY point in a mans living time-frame a man can CHOOSE to CALL out
...the Lords Name and announce TO HIM (not the mans neighbor, or pastor, or relative),
...but TO the Lord Himself, and declare an OATH, to from there and forever BE Faithful
...TO God, as Their God.

4) WHEN a man does (number 3 ^) in his own full truth - THAT is when...

5) Gods responsive ACTION is to make spiritual changes within the man - new heart, receiving of Gods Seed, restoring the mans soul (SAVING), quickening the mans spirit
(BORN AGAIN), forgiving all sin against God; washing, sanctifying, justifying the mans body, and Gods Spirit indwelling within the man, Forever being with the man, in his natural and spiritual life.

6) From there forward, that man belongs ONLY to ONE GOD; thee Lord God Almighty.




No. I have decided to believe, and decided to be diligent in learning knowledge ABOUT God, and decided to believe and trust the knowledge I have learned, and decided to keep following, and have accepted the results of my faith deepening, and have decided to accept my option of giving my life to God, for Him to perform ACTIONS He said He would, and am convinced that the blessings in my life are effected By God, and am thankful TO Him, for my blessings, which are numerous.

God Bless,
SBC

We cannot choose to believe. We can choose to ignore our belief. But there's nothing that you don't believe right now that you just just change your mind about.

 

[SBC]

If as conditional election claims that God knows beforehand those who will believe in His Son, why would He present the gospel to the others who He knows will not believe?

Equal opportunity God. Everyone comes out of the dust, returns to the dust.
Everyone has the same access to what He has created and made. Everyone has
the SAME opportunity to Believe. It is each individuals own choices they have the
opportunity to make.

Secondly, why would He give the ability, evidence etc to believe (which you seem to think is given for all humans) to the others who will not believe anyway?

Why not? It was HIS WILL to create and make, what HE chose to create and make.
Why do YOU do what YOU do? Because YOU want to. God did what He WANTED to do.

No one has to believe or like what YOU have done. And no one has to believe or like what God has done.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[InterestedApologist]

We cannot choose to believe. We can choose to ignore our belief. But there's nothing that you don't believe right now that you just just change your mind about.

That's quite the statement. Do you have anything to back that up?

 

[SBC]

We cannot choose to believe.

Nonsense. You are not naturally born believing anything.

A natural newborn - simply begins trusting, whatever it is that cares for it.
The newborn does not KNOW what "it' is until the newborn begins learning what it is.

We can choose to ignore our belief.

Sure.
You can BELIEVE you have and child, and ignore it.
You can BELIEVE you are an employee and ignore it.
You can BELIEVE God exists and ignore it.

But rest assured, the ignoring will be reciprocated, to your own detriment.

But there's nothing that you don't believe right now that you just just change your mind about.

Nonsense. The MIND was designed to "change" naturally, as you GAIN knowledge, and cipher which knowledge you trust.
You may trust NEW knowledge gained, or forego the NEW knowledge and keep the old as what you choose to believe.
You may love something one day and the next day, loath the same thing.

And precisely why God does not SEEK the "thoughts" of the MIND, when a person decides to COMMIT to Him.....God demands the "thought" of your HEART, if and when a man decides to COMMIT unto Him.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Hammster]

That's quite the statement. Do you have anything to back that up?

Life. If you can come up with something to the contrary, I'd be happy to listen.

 

[Hammster]

Nonsense. You are not naturally born believing anything.

A natural newborn - simply begins trusting, whatever it is that cares for it.
The newborn does not KNOW what "it' is until the newborn begins learning what it is.



Sure.
You can BELIEVE you have and child, and ignore it.
You can BELIEVE you are an employee and ignore it.
You can BELIEVE God exists and ignore it.

But rest assured, the ignoring will be reciprocated, to your own detriment.



Nonsense. The MIND was designed to "change" naturally, as you GAIN knowledge, and cipher which knowledge you trust.
You may trust NEW knowledge gained, or forego the NEW knowledge and keep the old as what you choose to believe.
You may love something one day and the next day, loath the same thing.

And precisely why God does not SEEK the "thoughts" of the MIND, when a person decides to COMMIT to Him.....God demands the "thought" of your HEART, if and when a man decides to COMMIT unto Him.

God Bless,
SBC

Lol. You just supported everything I said with your so-called rebuttal.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Equal opportunity God. Everyone comes out of the dust, returns to the dust.
Everyone has the same access to what He has created and made. Everyone has
the SAME opportunity to Believe. It is each individuals own choices they have the
opportunity to make.



Why not? It was HIS WILL to create and make, what HE chose to create and make.
Why do YOU do what YOU do? Because YOU want to. God did what He WANTED to do.

No one has to believe or like what YOU have done. And no one has to believe or like what God has done.

God Bless,
SBC

No one has to believe or like what YOU have done. And no one has to believe or like what God has done.

So you are fine with unconditional election.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It may have been a language barrier or something. But I was having a little trouble figuring out where you are coming from.

At times it seemed as though you were asking questions in a rhetorical manner and thereby you were really making statements and not asking questions which I should take the time to give a really thorough answer to. I see now that that is indeed the case.

I see now that you are a 5-point Calvinist. I think that's good for people to know so they can form their responses to you in a way that will be productive. I answer different to someone who is making speeches about their beliefs than I would to someone who was seeking answers about what I believe.

Salvation is deliverance. From what? Galatians 4: 4 -5. We are saved from wrath caused by law (Rom 4:15) by His death - Rom 7: 4, 6. We are justified by His resurrection - rom4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Causes refers to producing or leading to something. Cause produces effect.

Thank you for answering those questions for me. It helps.

I hope you believe that predestined to be justified is the same as elected to be justified.

No I don't believe that. To some the difference may just seem like just so much semantics. But not to me. Systematic theology is not a hit and miss undertaking. It should be a precise as possible.

Predestination and election are not only two different words they are two different theological concepts - although of course related in some way as are all doctrines.

Predestination is the fact that God has decreed what will or will not happen in the history of His creation.

Election is His pre-foundation of the world selection of certain individuals to act upon at a given time in history (one of the occurrences which God has decreed or predestined to occur). That action (when it occurs) will produce faith which in turn produces justification (or a position in Christ before God as holy as if we had never sinned).

Without election can one come to the cross?

No - not in a faithful or justifying manner.

I believe in the total depravity (or more correctly - the total inability of fallen and cursed men to contribute anything to their salvation and, indeed even to properly understand properly and receive the things of God).

Faith is just an assurance that Jesus has finished everything for the elect on the cross. Faith doesn't save or justify. Jesus's works does.

The elect are already saved and justified by the death and resurrection of His Son.
He gives us faith which is an assurance that He has indeed saved and justified us already.

Nonsense.

If Jesus' work justified in and of itself - then you and I for whom Christ died would have been saved from conception on and not need to exercise saving faith to be justified before God.

Before justification through faith - those for whom Christ died are children and vessels of wrath and under the curse of God just as much as what most Calvinists call the reprobate.

Some Calvinists, when faced with that biblical truth, make up a doctrine which says that Christ not only paid the price for our sins. But He also "purchased our faith", or some other such slogan. I see no biblical support for such a statement. Frankly I consider it simply as a cop out to avoid the obvious implication of what I have said.

Those implications being that men for whom Christ died could just as well spend eternity under His wrath as they do the many years up until their justification. In other words, the strained and flawed human logic which forms the basis for "limited atonement" - that if Christ died for the sins of all then all would escape His wrath in Hell - would simply be, as I said, "strained and flawed human logic".

 

[bling]

So you can create a plan & create strength to stop obeying satan?

So your plan precedes God?

If you are truly "obeying" than you would have to be able to not obey, or you are just doing what you were programmed to do, so it is not out of you personal will you are doing it and you are not responsible for what you did.

 

[bling]

Who gives the desire to not like to ask people to tie their shoes? Philippians 2:13.

We are brought up to feed, dress and take care of ourselves, which is good in lots of ways, so begging for pure sacrificial charity from anyone is not desired. This desire seems to go back to our needed survival instinct which gives value to eternal life, but it would also result in self-awareness, self -concern, independence, and to some degree selfishness.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Because they choose to use their own natural ability to NOT believe....just as I have chosen to use my own natural ability TO believe.

God Bless,
SBC

GOD DID GIVE ME THE ABILITY to BELIEVE.

That is not unique, as it applies to others as well.

Now, you seem to bring in two choices:

1. The first is about whether to accept or reject the God given ability.

2. The second is about whether to accept or reject salvation.

So according to you, the claim of a God given ability given to all, seems to carry no meaning.

Again, the question is, why don't many choose to accept the God given ability? Is it because God has not elected them?

 

[bling]

Is man more than God to stop Him?

It is not God stopping Himself from doing something good, but the definition of Godly type Love which does not allow God to force it on a person and still be Godly type Love. Godly type Love cannot be made to be just instinctive to humans since that would be a programmed robotic type of Love and if God force man to take this Love (or else go to hell or something like that) it would not be Loving on God's part noe would the person being forced really receive Godly type love for themselves.
Man is not developing this Love, Learning this Love, paying for this Love, or ever deserving of this Love, but it does come automatically as a gift to humans who humbly accept God's pure sacrificial gift of Love in the form of forgiveness "...he who is forgiven much Loves much...".

Was Paul able to stop God from forcing him on the road to Damascus?

Who is like Saul/Paul?
Who is so zealous for the truth they could be convinced to murder the innocent?
Who is so wise in the OT scripture and stands blameless in their own eyes before God?

Yes, Saul/Paul had a special calling, but it was going to take a huge opportunity to really provide an alternative to believing all he had been taught by wise men, the true religion he was following at the time, and the pride he had accumulated.

Saul/Paul could have easily been swayed by his pride to believe he had experienced heat stroke, fallen for his horse and been blinded by the sun with a nightmare of a memory. This alternative could have been developed in the days waiting, but the other alternative was to believe he was big time wrong and Christ was the Messiah.

Saul/Paul could not stop what God/Jesus did no the road, but after getting to Damascus Saul/Paul could have chosen not to accept what happened as truth.

 

[Si_monfaith]

It may have been a language barrier or something. But I was having a little trouble figuring out where you are coming from.

At times it seemed as though you were asking questions in a rhetorical manner and thereby you were really making statements and not asking questions which I should take the time to give a really thorough answer to. I see now that that is indeed the case.

I see now that you are a 5-point Calvinist. I think that's good for people to know so they can form their responses to you in a way that will be productive. I answer different to someone who is making speeches about their beliefs than I would to someone who was seeking answers about what I believe.

Thank you for answering those questions for me. It helps.

No I don't believe that. To some the difference may just seem like just so much semantics. But not to me. Systematic theology is not a hit and miss undertaking. It should be a precise as possible.

Predestination and election are not only two different words they are two different theological concepts - although of course related in some way as are all doctrines.

Predestination is the fact that God has decreed what will or will not happen in the history of His creation.

Election is His pre-foundation of the world selection of certain individuals to act upon at a given time in history (one of the occurrences which God has decreed or predestined to occur). That action (when it occurs) will produce faith which in turn produces justification (or a position in Christ before God as holy as if we had never sinned).

No - not in a faithful or justifying manner.

I believe in the total depravity (or more correctly - the total inability of fallen and cursed men to contribute anything to their salvation and, indeed even to properly understand properly and receive the things of God).

Nonsense.

If Jesus' work justified in and of itself - then you and I for whom Christ died would have been saved from conception on and not need to exercise saving faith to be justified before God.

Before justification through faith - those for whom Christ died are children and vessels of wrath and under the curse of God just as much as what most Calvinists call the reprobate.

Some Calvinists, when faced with that biblical truth, make up a doctrine which says that Christ not only paid the price for our sins. But He also "purchased our faith", or some other such slogan. I see no biblical support for such a statement. Frankly I consider it simply as a cop out to avoid the obvious implication of what I have said.

Those implications being that men for whom Christ died could just as well spend eternity under His wrath as they do the many years up until their justification. In other words, the strained and flawed human logic which forms the basis for "limited atonement" - that if Christ died for the sins of all then all would escape His wrath in Hell - would simply be, as I said, "strained and flawed human logic".

I see now that you are a 5-point Calvinist

I am not a Calvinist.

Predestination is the fact that God has decreed what will or will not happen in the history of His creation.

Predestination doesn't include selection of individuals? Rom 8: 29.

I believe in the total depravity

Man is either ruled by sin or grace (Rom 5:21).

If Jesus' work justified in and of itself - then you and I for whom Christ died would have been saved from conception on and not need to exercise saving faith to be justified before God.

Rom 5: 9: "being now justified by his blood"

Rom 5:10: "we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son".

The meaning of faith is assurance. Faith does not justify us. His works does.

Secondly, your statement: "not need to exercise saving faith". Reply: We don't produce faith, His grace does (1Timothy 1:14). We don't exercise faith, His grace does (1 Corinthians 15:10).

"limited atonement" -

So you reject limited atonement?

 

[Si_monfaith]

If you are truly "obeying" than you would have to be able to not obey, or you are just doing what you were programmed to do, so it is not out of you personal will you are doing it and you are not responsible for what you did.

Do you want to say, " I stop obeying satan" OR "It is not me but His grace that is with me that resists satan according to 1 Corinthians 15:10"?