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Faith: How does a person get it

FutureAndAHope

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See here's the thing,saying people are granted faith via personal Revelation from God undermines the principle of Romans 10:17 because it is understood the hearing here is literal preaching. Most of these examples you offer are not hearing an Evangelist,so if the driving force behind their conversion is not a preacher but these things mentioned lead them onto faith in Christ it is not the Gospel message that saved them,it is the saving grace of God only.

Preaching is the mechanism that God uses to make his word known in the world, preaching is not the only method used to draw man to salvation. I know of a Muslim man who had dreams (in a country where there was no gospel being preached), he wrote down his dreams, the dream he received where the full gospel of John (the book of the bible).

God is bigger than us, the devil tried to stop the gospel, so he can ruin men's lives, but God is there if we can not be.
 
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All Glory To God

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it is an interesting point you raise, I now see your question and where you are coming from. an ah ha moment if you will.
I will need to ponder on that one.

Although I dont think babies have unbelief either - they are not capable of either belief or unbelief.
Although I think they can recognize God their Creator. John the Baptist in the womb knew Jesus was nearby.


Well you said you would ponder the idea and hopefully that come to pass.

The main thing I want to focus in on with your post is your claim about John the baptist (in the womb) knew Jesus was near by,the point being unborn people experiencing Jesus. I assume your scripture is Luke 1 ?

The thing is when we read through the sequnce of events,Mary was not even pregnant at the time,when she visited Elisabeth so it seems incorrect the cause of Johns joy is Jesus because he isn't even incarnate yet.


Luke 1:34-39
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
 
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All Glory To God

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Preaching is the mechanism that God uses to make his word known in the world, preaching is not the only method used to draw man to salvation. I know of a Muslim man who had dreams (in a country where there was no gospel being preached), he wrote down his dreams, the dream he received where the full gospel of John (the book of the bible).

So can a person be saved without hearing the gospel? Meaning,do you think based on scripture God saves people without them hearing the gospel through an evangelist?


God is bigger than us, the devil tried to stop the gospel, so he can ruin men's lives, but God is there if we can not be.


I would say a much more affect method for the deceiver to use would be to falsify scripture not restriction. All the warnings are against false preachers not censorship.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So can a person be saved without hearing the gospel?

I believe that for a person to be saved they must respond to the gospel. But I do not believe that the gospel comes purely through "human" evangelists, that God Himself can minister to people where no man has.

Meaning,do you think based on scripture God saves people without them hearing the gospel through an evangelist?

So no I don't think God "needs" and evangelist.

Yet He has committed to us the oracles of God, He chooses to use man as His primary instrument in spreading His word.

But think for a moment outside your doctrine; the story I told you of the Muslim who had no access to the gospel. God sent him dreams over a period of time, he wrote down the dreams, it was the gospel of John, from the bible. So is salvation outside the biblical method? No. God uses the written word, He is the truth, He uses the truth. But he does not "need" preaching to save men.

Does this mean we should stop preaching? Of course not. The Holy Spirit in us drives us to preach. As paul said:

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
 
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All Glory To God

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I believe that for a person to be saved they must respond to the gospel. But I do not believe that the gospel comes purely through "human" evangelists, that God Himself can minister to people where no man has.



So no I don't think God "needs" and evangelist.

Yet He has committed to us the oracles of God, He chooses to use man as His primary instrument in spreading His word.

But think for a moment outside your doctrine; the story I told you of the Muslim who had no access to the gospel. God sent him dreams over a period of time, he wrote down the dreams, it was the gospel of John, from the bible. So is salvation outside the biblical method? No. God uses the written word, He is the truth, He uses the truth. But he does not "need" preaching to save men.

Does this mean we should stop preaching? Of course not. The Holy Spirit in us drives us to preach.

I have been considering the Muslim example you offered since you mentioned him and I think it supports a case for the saving Grace of God without human input. People received dream revelations from God in the Bible, your example received a dream message that lead him to faith without a preacher so now I would invite you to think over what the purpose of the gospel is.


As Paul said: 1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

Paul was called to be an Apostle, he was a "master builder" of the faith. Do you think all the rules that applied to the Apostle Paul apply to the average Christian?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Paul was called to be an Apostle, he was a "master builder" of the faith. Do you think all the rules that applied to the Apostle Paul apply to the average Christian?

Php 3:10-14 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Straining Toward the Goal Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

The call of Christ is very high, so high in fact that Paul did not feel he had obtained it. As Christians we are not responsible for obtaining Paul's level of faith, we are responsible for leaving the past behind, and push toward the goal of Christ-likeness. Most of us will not reach Paul's level, but that does not mean that we are not saved. We are saved by the atoning sacrifice that Jesus paid for us on the cross. But we should "[join in] the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death", be that refraining from our lusts, or actually suffering reproach for Christ's sake.

Heb 13:12-14 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

As a Christian, I often stay in the safety of the camp, but Christ calls us to go outside the camp, bearing his reproach.
 
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StillGods

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Well you said you would ponder the idea and hopefully that come to pass.

The main thing I want to focus in on with your post is your claim about John the baptist (in the womb) knew Jesus was near by,the point being unborn people experiencing Jesus. I assume your scripture is Luke 1 ?

The thing is when we read through the sequnce of events,Mary was not even pregnant at the time,when she visited Elisabeth so it seems incorrect the cause of Johns joy is Jesus because he isn't even incarnate yet.


Luke 1:34-39
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

interesting, I just presumed Mary was pregnant at the time...two pregnant ladies getting together to bond in a shared experience etc... but good to reread it in light of what you've said.
 
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iLove

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Your Word for Today

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not (Rom. 7:18).

Most Christians think that when a person comes to Christ, the Lord gives them an extra-strong willpower. Consequently, they now have, they think, the power to say “No!” to sin.

None of that is correct!

It may come as a shock and a surprise to most Christians, but the Devil can easily override the willpower of a person. The only “willpower” that the Lord gives a person is the will to say “Yes!” to Christ, which is, in fact, very important. This means that the worst sinner in the world, for example, one totally bound by alcohol or drugs, who cannot say “No!” to those vices, can, if he so desires, say “Yes!” to Christ. It is the same principle with the Believer.

The Lord doesn’t really give the Believer the capacity to say “No!” to sin, because we are “dead to sin.” A dead man doesn’t say anything. In this “newness of life,” however, we are given the capacity to say “Yes!” to Christ and His Way, which is the Way of the Cross. That is where the will of man begins and ends.

The Believer does not overcome by willpower; he overcomes by Faith. This means, as we have repeatedly stated, Faith in Christ and the Cross (Galatians 6:14).

If one studies the life of the Apostle Paul, one must come to the conclusion that he was a man with a strong constitution. I personally believe Paul had extremely strong willpower; however, he very clearly states in Romans 7:18 that he had the will to live the life he knew he ought to live, but “how to perform that which is good he found not.” His willpower, in other words, simply was not good enough. And neither is yours!

Law, as a barrier to the will, excites it; and the consciousness of sin thereby awakened produces in the Presence of God a conscience under sentence of death. Thus, the Commandment ordained unto life becomes, in fact, the instrument of death. “This do and you shall live” became death to man because his sinful nature refused to obey; and in so refusing his own conscience, it condemned him to death.

Thus, the Law was holy and each of its Commandments just and good, but it condemned to death all who failed to render to it a perfect obedience, as condemn it must! Such is the effect of Divine Law upon man’s carnal nature; the rest of this Seventh Chapter illustrates the doctrine by showing how fruitless is the effort of the “old man” to live as the “new man.” There is simply no such thing as moral evolution, i.e., self cannot control self; the flesh cannot control the flesh.

If the Believer is trying to live for God by any means other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, no matter how hard he tries, he will find himself sinking deeper and deeper into the morass of sin. That means the situation will become worse and worse.

There is no victory in “trying harder.” There is victory only in Christ and the Cross!

— Donnie Swaggart (taken from the “Word for Every Day”)
Donnie Swaggart
 
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All Glory To God

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Your Word for Today

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not (Rom. 7:18).

Most Christians think that when a person comes to Christ, the Lord gives them an extra-strong willpower. Consequently, they now have, they think, the power to say “No!” to sin.

None of that is correct!

It may come as a shock and a surprise to most Christians, but the Devil can easily override the willpower of a person. The only “willpower” that the Lord gives a person is the will to say “Yes!” to Christ, which is, in fact, very important. This means that the worst sinner in the world, for example, one totally bound by alcohol or drugs, who cannot say “No!” to those vices, can, if he so desires, say “Yes!” to Christ. It is the same principle with the Believer.

The Lord doesn’t really give the Believer the capacity to say “No!” to sin, because we are “dead to sin.” A dead man doesn’t say anything. In this “newness of life,” however, we are given the capacity to say “Yes!” to Christ and His Way, which is the Way of the Cross. That is where the will of man begins and ends.

The Believer does not overcome by willpower; he overcomes by Faith. This means, as we have repeatedly stated, Faith in Christ and the Cross (Galatians 6:14).

If one studies the life of the Apostle Paul, one must come to the conclusion that he was a man with a strong constitution. I personally believe Paul had extremely strong willpower; however, he very clearly states in Romans 7:18 that he had the will to live the life he knew he ought to live, but “how to perform that which is good he found not.” His willpower, in other words, simply was not good enough. And neither is yours!

Law, as a barrier to the will, excites it; and the consciousness of sin thereby awakened produces in the Presence of God a conscience under sentence of death. Thus, the Commandment ordained unto life becomes, in fact, the instrument of death. “This do and you shall live” became death to man because his sinful nature refused to obey; and in so refusing his own conscience, it condemned him to death.

Thus, the Law was holy and each of its Commandments just and good, but it condemned to death all who failed to render to it a perfect obedience, as condemn it must! Such is the effect of Divine Law upon man’s carnal nature; the rest of this Seventh Chapter illustrates the doctrine by showing how fruitless is the effort of the “old man” to live as the “new man.” There is simply no such thing as moral evolution, i.e., self cannot control self; the flesh cannot control the flesh.

If the Believer is trying to live for God by any means other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, no matter how hard he tries, he will find himself sinking deeper and deeper into the morass of sin. That means the situation will become worse and worse.

There is no victory in “trying harder.” There is victory only in Christ and the Cross!

— Donnie Swaggart (taken from the “Word for Every Day”)
Donnie Swaggart


All well and good but we are talking about how a person get's faith to begin with. The post you gave is working from the point of a saved person,I am talking about the steps leading up to that.
 
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Joey Brown

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The Bible says unless a person believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour they are separated from God.

How exactly does this faith in Christ come about, from scripture. "Soul winners" will knock on people's door or go out street preaching the message "believe in Jesus" and I agree faith is needed. The question is: How do we do that? Specifically how can a lost person get faith in Jesus?
You can truly grow in faith when perceiving the work of God, and seeing that through his promises he always fulfills.
 
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All Glory To God

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You can truly grow in faith when perceiving the work of God, and seeing that through his promises he always fulfills.


Jesus said unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. That is called regeneration,so the question is this, Which one comes first:

1) Regeneration

2) Faith
 
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mlepfitjw

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The Bible says unless a person believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour they are separated from God.

How exactly does this faith in Christ come about, from scripture. "Soul winners" will knock on people's door or go out street preaching the message "believe in Jesus" and I agree faith is needed. The question is: How do we do that? Specifically how can a lost person get faith in Jesus?

Hello, @All Glory To God sir. My statement of how a person gets faith, would be from hearing the word of God. Maybe even people who preach out of selfish ambition, or from people who preach out of love. That is the gist of it.

Scriptures used: (Romans 10:17, Philippians 1:15-18)


In darkness it's hard to see, even sometimes the faintest of lights inside of a cave. Though it is possible to follow the light and be lead outside if you are truly searching.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I happen to, unfortunately, belong to a church which sincerely believes in Quietism. Quietism first popped up in eighteenth century England and has affected various churches and denominations ever since. I do not know of any exceptions.

For those who are unfamiliar with Quietism, it is the belief that Christians are not to undertake and supersede the gracious work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the conversion of souls. According to this belief, God Himself converts people quite apart from any human effort. The best we can do, as Christians, is to ask God to save people and to live good, holy, moral lives so that unbelievers might ask us about the hope that is within us. In this way, God will get all the glory and man cannot claim any for himself.

So, you might wonder, how effective is Quietism. Well, in the eighteenth century Moravianism was sweeping onto the scene with massive numbers of conversions. Then Quietism took over following the death of the founder, Count Zinzendorf. Today the Moravian Church still exists but in much smaller numbers and correspondingly little influence. This also proved to be the case with the Friends (aka Quakers) as well as most Anabaptist groups such as the Amish and the Mennonites.
 
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mlepfitjw

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The best we can do, as Christians, is to ask God to save people and to live good, holy, moral lives so that unbelievers might ask us about the hope that is within us. In this way, God will get all the glory and man cannot claim any for himself.

@bbbbbbb, that is true to praying for others. Maybe someone will come in a persons life, and they will hear about Jesus Christ, and think more on it and come into the light. Prayer is always effective, and God is always working, and we are able to have our minds and hearts through Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:6-7 :

6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 5:7
7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
 
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bbbbbbb

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@bbbbbbb, that is true to praying for others. Maybe someone will come in a persons life, and they will hear about Jesus Christ, and think more on it and come into the light. Prayer is always effective, and God is always working, and we are able to have our minds and hearts through Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:6-7 :

6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 5:7
7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

I am not dismissing prayer as being at all useless or ineffective, but merely pointing out that Quietism relies solely on prayer for the conversion of souls. There is no interest in actually preaching the gospel or in making disciples of anyone.
 
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All Glory To God

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Hello, @All Glory To God sir. My statement of how a person gets faith, would be from hearing the word of God. Maybe even people who preach out of selfish ambition, or from people who preach out of love. That is the gist of it.

Scriptures used: (Romans 10:17, Philippians 1:15-18)


In darkness it's hard to see, even sometimes the faintest of lights inside of a cave. Though it is possible to follow the light and be lead outside if you are truly searching.


Hi Agallagher.

The scripture Romans 10:17 implies a person needs to hear the gospel to be saved. In that case I need to ask you is it essential to hear the Gospel to be saved or can people be saved without hearing the gospel preached to them,for example unborn people who die in the womb?
 
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All Glory To God

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I happen to, unfortunately, belong to a church which sincerely believes in Quietism. Quietism first popped up in eighteenth century England and has affected various churches and denominations ever since. I do not know of any exceptions.

For those who are unfamiliar with Quietism, it is the belief that Christians are not to undertake and supersede the gracious work of God, the Holy Spirit, in the conversion of souls. According to this belief, God Himself converts people quite apart from any human effort. The best we can do, as Christians, is to ask God to save people and to live good, holy, moral lives so that unbelievers might ask us about the hope that is within us. In this way, God will get all the glory and man cannot claim any for himself.

So, you might wonder, how effective is Quietism. Well, in the eighteenth century Moravianism was sweeping onto the scene with massive numbers of conversions. Then Quietism took over following the death of the founder, Count Zinzendorf. Today the Moravian Church still exists but in much smaller numbers and correspondingly little influence. This also proved to be the case with the Friends (aka Quakers) as well as most Anabaptist groups such as the Amish and the Mennonites.

I am not advocating for quietism but want to focus in on the aspect of human effort in regard to salvation. I'm taking a part of what you said ''according to this belief, God Himself converts people quite apart from any human effort'' if you believe the contrary to this,what effort does man play in their conversion and where can we find it from scripture?
 
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mlepfitjw

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Hi Agallagher.

The scripture Romans 10:17 implies a person needs to hear the gospel to be saved. In that case I need to ask you is it essential to hear the Gospel to be saved or can people be saved without hearing the gospel preached to them,for example unborn people who die in the womb?

In response, Jesus Christ paid for all the sins of every person. Because of Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross he paid for all the sin of the entire world. That means me and you were both forgiven of our sins, before we were even born.

Now when it comes to being saved by having faith it is different all together because a faith can be formed with God in my estimation without hearing the word of God, and God can write on your heart and mind as a believer (even if they haven't heard the gospel).

Though if you hear the word of Christ it would reinforce and strengthen your faith, by hearing the word of God and some of the most useful scriptures we have that reinforce belief, faith, promises, being renewed and changed in your mind by having faith on Christ because of how we are changed by the spirit that God gives to people.

Scriptures used: (1 John 2:1-4, Luke 23:34, Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 10:16, Psalms 46:1-3, Ephesians 4:23-24, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Romans 8:9-10, 1 John 5:20; (promise))
 
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All Glory To God

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In response, Jesus Christ paid for all the sins of every person. Because of Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross he paid for all the sin of the entire world. That means me and you were both forgiven of our sins, before we were even born.

In regard to Christ dying for every single person that ever lived I would disagree and argue he died for a selected group who he chose for salvation,not a random bunch of people who made a better decision than the condemned but election this is a whole different topic.


Now when it comes to being saved by having faith it is different all together because a faith can be formed with God in my estimation without hearing the word of God, and God can write on your heart and mind as a believer (even if they haven't heard the gospel).


Salvation removed from the gospel is grace alone. No gospel,no preacher,no human effort just the saving grace of God. Now you have conceded that some are saved by grace only,why can't all be saved by grace only?

Though if you hear the word of Christ it would reinforce and strengthen your faith, by hearing the word of God and some of the most useful scriptures we have that reinforce belief, faith, promises, being renewed and changed in your mind by having faith on Christ because of how we are changed by the spirit that God gives to people.

Scriptures used: (1 John 2:1-4, Luke 23:34, Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 10:16, Psalms 46:1-3, Ephesians 4:23-24, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Romans 8:9-10, 1 John 5:20; (promise))
 
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mlepfitjw

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In regard to Christ dying for every single person that ever lived I would disagree and argue he died for a selected group who he chose for salvation,not a random bunch of people who made a better decision than the condemned but election this is a whole different topic.





Salvation removed from the gospel is grace alone. No gospel,no preacher,no human effort just the saving grace of God. Now you have conceded that some are saved by grace only,why can't all be saved by grace only?

I disagree, the scriptures seem to answer my thought process.
 
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