Faith: How does a person get it

[All Glory To God]

It is based on these:

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went. By faith, he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked for the city which has the foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith, even Sarah herself received power to conceive, and she bore a child when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised.
Heb. 11:7-11

Righteous person is faithful to God and it means person does not reject God. It means person is loyal to God and trusts to His word.

Living by faith and obtaining faith to begin with with are two different things and especially if you believe in security of the believer. I think Hebrews 10:38 is addressing the saints and warning not to waver,not a verse to show how to save the lost.

 

[Hawkins]

The Bible says unless a person believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour they are separated from God.

How exactly does this faith in Christ come about, from scripture. "Soul winners" will knock on people's door or go out street preaching the message "believe in Jesus" and I agree faith is needed. The question is: How do we do that? Specifically how can a lost person get faith in Jesus?

Logically you should believe God once told He exists by human testimonies from those encountered Him. There is a reason out of a logical reasoning that you should believe in such a God. However, under modern education we/you are brainwashed and have lost such a sense. So perhaps you need to figure out what is blocking your mind from believing in Jesus to be saved.

 

[All Glory To God]

Eh? No, you've entirely misunderstood. All are sinners. Every last person.

We are to follow Not some doctrine, But Christ and His Word. So, scripture itself is how we can read that sin is only counted when there is understanding. We hear it (if we listen!) from both Christ our Lord, and through the epistle Romans. Scripture. I don't rely on such various doctrines as you refer to (not one nor another) in general exactly because they try to replace scripture. You should not put your faith/hope in a doctrine either, not one doctrine nor another! Better, by far, is to truly listen to Christ, and truly hear Him.

Yes but when do we sin,as this defines the whole human nature.

When you say this ''I don't have a simple answer about the age of accountability, even though in many cultures that's often something like 15 or 16 yrs old. I think probably the age of accountability varies by individual, and that it may happen gradually also'' What scripture are you basing that on? That people can go into their teenage years before being accountable for their sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Mercy and justice cannot be administered at the same time toward sinful creatures.

Romans 1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'"

See what the Apostle says, "For in it" by which he means the Gospel, "the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith".

What is "the justice of God" here?

When one assumes that by God's justice is meant only a divine, active justice--even a punitive justice against sin--then we are going to fail to understand the meaning.

The justice of God revealed in the Gospel is not God's justice against sin, it isn't God's justice against sinful man; the justice of God revealed through the Gospel from faith to faith is the justice by which man is made just. This is God's gracious, merciful justice which is imputed to us through faith, as pure gift.

So to say that "mercy and justice" cannot be administered at the same time is wrong. Because that is exactly what we have through the Gospel: The mercy and justice of God which saves us on Christ's account. This is God's saving justice, the justice by which He rights the wrongs of sin and death by healing and restoring man, in Christ, by grace.

The modern Protestant western view of justice is so often presented as God's wrath toward sin, speaking of punishment; that it ignores that God is Tsidkenu, "our Righteousness". The Righteous God, the Just God, is the God of Justice who heals, who restores, who amends, to sets things right. He is the God who is setting the world to rights through the salvation and healing that comes from Jesus Christ, as pure mercy for us all--indeed, and at the end, for the whole of creation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Halbhh]

Yes but when do we sin,as this defines the whole human nature.

When you say this ''I don't have a simple answer about the age of accountability, even though in many cultures that's often something like 15 or 16 yrs old. I think probably the age of accountability varies by individual, and that it may happen gradually also'' What scripture are you basing that on? That people can go into their teenage years before being accountable for their sin.

When you read the verses in Romans, they go quite a ways to answering this fully, about when sin is counted, but best (and needed) is to listen to Christ Himself also in the gospels on this.

Romans 5:13 For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
(so it's sin when it's a wrongful action, even if the person doesn't understand; but when the person doesn't understand it is sin, then it is not counted; Christ confirms this -- John 9:41 "If you were blind," Jesus replied, "you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (but it is far best to read this entire chapter as a whole!))

Here, the answer isn't from a doctrine (which are sometimes an oversimplification), but instead what we hear by truly listening. It isn't that doctrines are mostly wrong. So many are right. But instead, the trouble people can have is by relying on those simplifications instead of full reading in scripture.

 

[All Glory To God]

This is such a crucial question, and we all need to know how, and it's so helpful how Christ answers this, emphasizing to us the quality of real repentance.

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:
10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’
13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 18 ESV

As you can see, a true repentance is sincere, and humble (it's really humble to confess one's wrongs, how one falls short).

So helpful for us all is to read 1rst John chapters 1 and 2 on this.

This is the justified man speaking:

''And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’


So we are pretty much back to where we started. This is the same sort of strand of ''who shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved'' ok,and how do you actually get people to genuine repent of their worldly ways and have faith in Christ? I say it is a love gift from God that changes the person.

 

[All Glory To God]

Logically you should believe God once told He exists by human testimonies from those encountered Him. There is a reason out of a logical reasoning that you should believe in such a God. However, under modern education we/you are brainwashed and have lost such a sense. So perhaps you need to figure out what is blocking your mind from believing in Jesus to be saved.

I do actually believe. The point is I want to have the important discussion of how evangelists preach the gospel,what texts they use and in fact is the gospel is a manual to used for salvation or is it something else,like God revealing himself for his glory and purposes.

 

[Halbhh]

This is the justified man speaking:

''And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’


So we are pretty much back to where we started. This is the same sort of strand of ''who shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved'' ok,and how do you actually get people to genuine repent of their worldly ways and have faith in Christ? I say it is a love gift from God that changes the person.

It's an interesting question (though such more extensive understanding isn't needed for salvation, which is based on faith in Christ instead). When I read fully the parable of the prodigal...or better/best -- all that chapter, as the entire chapter is on this theme: Luke 15 ESV -- I get that the reason the prodigal son was able to turn and repent is precisely because he was a son of his Father, and remembered being in his Father's house! And my thought is that when we are young children, long before we understand, we are initially connected to our Father, not yet alienated from our Father, and this is part of what we can remember if we are prodigal, in a moment, as the prodigal does in the wording of the story. He remembers being with his Father, that things are so much better, and then longs to return. But we also read in the other parables in the chapter that our Shepherd comes for his lost sheep!

 

[All Glory To God]

Romans 1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'"

See what the Apostle says, "For in it" by which he means the Gospel, "the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith".

What is "the justice of God" here?

When one assumes that by God's justice is meant only a divine, active justice--even a punitive justice against sin--then we are going to fail to understand the meaning.

The justice of God revealed in the Gospel is not God's justice against sin, it isn't God's justice against sinful man; the justice of God revealed through the Gospel from faith to faith is the justice by which man is made just. This is God's gracious, merciful justice which is imputed to us through faith, as pure gift.

So to say that "mercy and justice" cannot be administered at the same time is wrong. Because that is exactly what we have through the Gospel: The mercy and justice of God which saves us on Christ's account. This is God's saving justice, the justice by which He rights the wrongs of sin and death by healing and restoring man, in Christ, by grace.

The modern Protestant western view of justice is so often presented as God's wrath toward sin, speaking of punishment; that it ignores that God is Tsidkenu, "our Righteousness". The Righteous God, the Just God, is the God of Justice who heals, who restores, who amends, to sets things right. He is the God who is setting the world to rights through the salvation and healing that comes from Jesus Christ, as pure mercy for us all--indeed, and at the end, for the whole of creation.

-CryptoLutheran

I was specifically talking about salvation so all the these other facets you bring up were not included. The conversation was about infant fatalities,these people do not hear the gospel and then what happens to their souls on the day of judgment?

If you are going to try and school me at least cover the subject matter I talk about and don't exceed that or even better just leave this thread i put together. I don't think it's very pleasant having a person who's only purpose is attempting to find mistakes in other members.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I was specifically talking about salvation so all the these other facets you bring up were not included. The conversation was about infant fatalities,these people do not hear the gospel and then what happens to their souls on the day of judgment?

I'm talking about salvation as well.

Shouldn't it be sufficient to say that God, who in His mercy and justice, can be trusted in such matters? He is the One who saves us. That we know and confess the salvation which God has for us, through Christ, and He is the Same who, in the end, is the Judge of all mortal flesh. And therefore we can leave in His good hands the fate of all.

The Scriptures point us to Christ, and so we profess Christ, the One who suffered, died, was buried, and who rose again, and who will come again as judge of the living and the dead and bring with Him on that glorious Day His kingdom which can never fall away for it is forever. That is the Day in which true justice is found, when every tear is wiped away, there is no more suffering.

No one can say the fate of any individual, but we confess that God has saved us and, indeed, is saving us even now because that is His faithful word and promise to us in the Gospel. But of those who have not heard, we can only continue to confess the God who has come down and met us in Jesus Christ to save us and, indeed, the whole world.

Damnation is not what God does to sinners, damnation is what we do for ourselves.
Salvation is what God does for sinners, and this is entirely apart from ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Glory To God]

When you read the verses in Romans, they go quite a ways to answering this fully, about when sin is counted, but best (and needed) is to listen to Christ Himself also in the gospels on this.

Romans 5:13 For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
(so it's sin when it's a wrongful action, even if the person doesn't understand; but when the person doesn't understand it is sin, then it is not counted; Christ confirms this -- John 9:41 "If you were blind," Jesus replied, "you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (but it is far best to read this entire chapter as a whole!))

Here, the answer isn't from a doctrine (which are sometimes an oversimplification), but instead what we hear by truly listening. It isn't that doctrines are mostly wrong. So many are right. But instead, the trouble people can have is by relying on those simplifications instead of full reading in scripture.

This is a long conversation about sin nature and it is not a doctrine it is Bible. So unless we are to totally derail this thread we need to sidestep that issue and keep it on topic,which was how does a person get faith. Although this is going to be very difficult because you hold a belief system which says human accountable varies so gospel accountability is going to vary.

Anyway let's try this again one more time. How do you think an unsaved person comes to faith?

 

[All Glory To God]

It's an interesting question (though such more extensive understanding isn't needed for salvation, which is based on faith in Christ instead). When I read fully the parable of the prodigal...or better/best -- all that chapter, as the entire chapter is on this theme: Luke 15 ESV -- I get that the reason the prodigal son was able to turn and repent is precisely because he was a son of his Father, and remembered being in his Father's house! And my thought is that when we are young children, long before we understand, we are initially connected to our Father, not yet alienated from our Father, and this is part of what we can remember if we are prodigal, in a moment, as the prodigal does in the wording of the story. He remembers being with his Father, that things are so much better, and then longs to return. But we also read in the other parables in the chapter that our Shepherd comes for his lost sheep!

I've heard some many variations of the prodigal son I literal can't remember them all and you probably have too.

 

[Halbhh]

This is a long conversation about sin nature and it is not a doctrine it is Bible. So unless we are to totally derail this thread we need to sidestep that issue and keep it on topic,which was how does a person get faith. Although this is going to be very difficult because you hold a belief system which says human accountable varies so gospel accountability is going to vary.

Anyway let's try this again one more time. How do you think an unsaved person comes to faith?

I can't help but notice you've guessed at what I think/believe twice, without asking me, and got your guess wrong both times. It would be better to ask, instead of judging on just an appearance -- John 7:24

I don't think it's helping for me to directly answer your questions. Here's why --

I did directly answer how we come to faith up in the thread.

Now, I do know a person in my church that forgets quickly what we say to him, so I can adjust for that, if that is a condition you have (just tell me).

 

[All Glory To God]

I'm talking about salvation as well.

Shouldn't it be sufficient to say that God, who in His mercy and justice, can be trusted in such matters? He is the One who saves us. That we know and confess the salvation which God has for us, through Christ, and He is the Same who, in the end, is the Judge of all mortal flesh. And therefore we can leave in His good hands the fate of all.

The Scriptures point us to Christ, and so we profess Christ, the One who suffered, died, was buried, and who rose again, and who will come again as judge of the living and the dead and bring with Him on that glorious Day His kingdom which can never fall away for it is forever. That is the Day in which true justice is found, when every tear is wiped away, there is no more suffering.

No one can say the fate of any individual, but we confess that God has saved us and, indeed, is saving us even now because that is His faithful word and promise to us in the Gospel. But of those who have not heard, we can only continue to confess the God who has come down and met us in Jesus Christ to save us and, indeed, the whole world.

Damnation is not what God does to sinners, damnation is what we do for ourselves.
Salvation is what God does for sinners, and this is entirely apart from ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

Very well.

 

[StillGods]

Yeah but that doesn't fit with the idea that the gospel is an instrument essential for salvation,if it can be excluded from whole age groups of people. Mercy and justice cannot be administered at the same time toward sinful creatures. If you opt for mercy then you concede that God is judge over salvation,if you opt for justice than these people,whoever they are must be punished for not accepting Christ and we know they wouldn't because they didn't hear the gospel,if you want to be consistent.

My belief system is that God saves who he chooses without conditions or partnership from the inferior creation,so I do not have this dilemma of ''need to hear the Gospel'' but then back down from this position in tricky situations like infant fatalities.

The Bible says that anyone who believes will be saved.... so no groups are excluded from salvation they just need to believe in Jesus Christ.

that gives us the issue that you seem to perhaps be asking and why I think there is an age of accountability (which is different for each person).

one needs to be able to comprehend enough to be able to believe.

can babies believe if all they know are the need to be fed and changed.

can unborn babies believe if their brain is nor even fully formed yet?

can the intellectually limited fully comprehend more than God is love.

just as a Father does not expect a 2 year old to know how to drive or to have the capability to learn how yet, so I believe God know those He has created in detail and knows when they can believe. God is just in that His judgments are righteous. He treats each person as they are only He knows the point at which a person is capable of belief.

So I do not believe babies are yet capable of belief.

I do believe the age of accountability is quite low though. some very young children have an understanding of God that few adults have. God talks about having the faith of a child, we are instructed to have this type of faith. and it is amazing how a child will simply trust you as an adult isnt it really. their trust or faith is something very precious.
God wants us to have that kind of trust/faith in Him.

faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. there is an instruction in the new testament to 'have faith in God' - it is our choice to do that or not, as well as God giving us faith. I think God gives us faith by such things as intervening in our lives at times showing us He is real, giving us creation that declares Him, perhaps something like providing a verse on a wall somewhere that may speak to us as a non believer and cause us to ponder on the existence of God... thus growing faith bit by bit.
And God does such things with all people. What we do with such things matters, do we dismiss it or not. Everyone is given opportunity to believe or not believe.

That is why with evangelism God knows where each person is at, we cant assume where a person is. They may be very near to believing in Christ for salvation taking that step. or they may need to know a bit more or ponder a bit more first. or they may be hearing for the first time that there is a God who loves them. every person is different.
God knows this and is Merciful to ignorance (thankfully!). And He is Just in that He judges each person according to that persons journey.

 

[Halbhh]

I've heard some many variations of the prodigal son I literal can't remember them all and you probably have too.

I've only trusted one 'variation' alone -- that in the actual wording. When I hear a preacher preach on it (perhaps 15 or more times in my life), I listen to see if they accurately convey what the text does say, or instead say something unlike the text.

 

[All Glory To God]

I can't help but notice you've guessed at what I think/believe twice, without asking me, and got your guess wrong both times. It would be better to ask, instead of judging on just an appearance -- John 7:24

It was not a guess,I asked leading questions early in thread,you answered them and I took the information. If there is an error in communication I blame you. Yep.


These were the questions:

Two points in regard to that scripture.

1) If you believe that a person must hear the gospel to be saved,what happens to unborn people that die in the womb?

2) I interpret Romans 10:18 to mean all people have heard Gods word by his creation so the gospel is not necessary in every single case of salvation,only the saving grace of God is. If you disagree with scripture interpretation,what is your counterargument?

These were your answers:

1) -- They and all innocents that die we can expect (from scripture) are under the Grace of God, and will see eternal Life!

For instance: Luke 18:16 But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

2) -- Regarding needing to hear the gospel for those old enough to be accountable for their wrongs (old enough to know they are doing wrongs) --

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared...
1 Peter 3 ESV

The Word is the seed, and we read here He has brought the Word to the spirits in prison! That's mercy and grace!

 

[Halbhh]

It was not a guess,I asked leading qustions early in thred,you ansered them and I took the information.


These were the questions:




These were your answers:

Are those answers unclear in any way? They are very direct answers to my eye, but perhaps there is some unclear wording?

 

[All Glory To God]

The Bible says that anyone who believes will be saved.... so no groups are excluded from salvation they just need to believe in Jesus Christ.

that gives us the issue that you seem to perhaps be asking and why I think there is an age of accountability (which is different for each person).

one needs to be able to comprehend enough to be able to believe.

can babies believe if all they know are the need to be fed and changed.

can unborn babies believe if their brain is nor even fully formed yet?

can the intellectually limited fully comprehend more than God is love.

just as a Father does not expect a 2 year old to know how to drive or to have the capability to learn how yet, so I believe God know those He has created in detail and knows when they can believe. God is just in that His judgments are righteous. He treats each person as they are only He knows the point at which a person is capable of belief.

So I do not believe babies are yet capable of belief.

I do believe the age of accountability is quite low though. some very young children have an understanding of God that few adults have. God talks about having the faith of a child, we are instructed to have this type of faith. and it is amazing how a child will simply trust you as an adult isnt it really. their trust or faith is something very precious.
God wants us to have that kind of trust/faith in Him.

faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. there is an instruction in the new testament to 'have faith in God' - it is our choice to do that or not, as well as God giving us faith. I think God gives us faith by such things as intervening in our lives at times showing us He is real, giving us creation that declares Him, perhaps something like providing a verse on a wall somewhere that may speak to us as a non believer and cause us to ponder on the existence of God... thus growing faith bit by bit.
And God does such things with all people. Everyone is given opportunity to believe or not believe.

That is why with evangelism God knows where each person is at, we cant assume where a person is. They may be very near to believing in Christ for salvation taking that step. or they may need to know a bit more or ponder a bit more first. or they may be hearing for the first time that there is a God who loves them. every person is different.
God knows this and is Merciful to ignorance (thankfully!). And He is Just in that He judges each person according to that persons journey.

Exactly,faith come by hearing,hearing the word of God. Now how can a unborn person hear the word? They can't. So they don't have faith. So they go to hell for unbelief? You say no,because they are not accountable. Here's the main point I keep trying to highlight- Not all people need to hear the gospel to be saved. If that is the case,the principle that all people need to hear the gospel to be saved...is false. So what is true about salvation? Saving grace of God.

 

[StillGods]

Exactly,faith come by hearing,hearing the word of God. Now how can a unborn person hear the word? They can't. So they don't have faith. So they go to hell for unbelief? You say no,because they are not accountable. Here's the main point I keep trying to highlight- Not all people need to hear the gospel to be saved. If that is the case,the principle that all people need to hear the gospel to be saved...is false. So what is true about salvation? Saving grace of God.

it is an interesting point you raise, I now see your question and where you are coming from. an ah ha moment if you will.
I will need to ponder on that one.

Although I dont think babies have unbelief either - they are not capable of either belief or unbelief.
Although I think they can recognize God their Creator. John the Baptist in the womb knew Jesus was nearby.