Extra ecclesia...

[concretecamper]

Vatican I

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

and there went 99 per cent of the Church into anathema...

 

[Meowzltov]

What has changed is the understanding of what "the Church" is.

Exactly.

 

[Michie]

What the difference between changing teaching and understanding then? Seems like a roundabout way of saying the same thing.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What the difference between changing teaching and understanding then. Seems like a roundabout way of saying the same thing.

It was a tap dance trying to uphold a teaching of which they new was not correct.

The Church can not place limits on God's mercy, of which they did in the past by stating there was
no salvation outside the Institutional Catholic Church. There was no room for Protestants, Jews and Muslims to be saved, because they did not belong to the Catholic Church and were told it was the one true Church of which they must belong to be saved and they rejected it.

As we have seen from the Catechism, they now explain this in a way which doesn't put God into a corner where only man can decide who is saved.

The Church evolves, if she didn't, she'd still be hanging heretics.

Jim

 

[Root of Jesse]

It was a tap dance trying to uphold a teaching of which they new was not correct.

The Church can not place limits on God's mercy, of which they did in the past by stating there was
no salvation outside the Institutional Catholic Church. There was no room for Protestants, Jews and Muslims to be saved, because they did not belong to the Catholic Church and were told it was the one true Church of which they must belong to be saved and they rejected it.

As we have seen from the Catechism, they now explain this in a way which doesn't put God into a corner where only man can decide who is saved.

The Church evolves, if she didn't, she'd still be hanging heretics.

Jim

The Church did not place any limit on God's mercy. It may be true that Urban said something which we take differently, but the thing is, we still know what God was trying to convey through Boniface. So this is not to say that Boniface didn't mean what you're saying he meant (indeed what most say he meant), but to say that God enlightened us without having to change a thing he said, only by deepening our understanding of what 'the Church" consists of.

It's funny how God works that way, ain't it?
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia is a pretty good read.

 

[concretecamper]

What is funny is that the CCC doesn't say anything about whether or not non Catholics are saved. All it say is some really nice things about other faiths and protestants and uses the word "may" and "can". Seems to me some people where trying to thread the ecumenical needle and caused a lot of confusion.

BTW...I told my kids you "can" win the Powerball Jackpot 2 times in a row.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Church did not place any limit on God's mercy. It may be true that Urban said something which we take differently, but the thing is, we still know what God was trying to convey through Boniface. So this is not to say that Boniface didn't mean what you're saying he meant (indeed what most say he meant), but to say that God enlightened us without having to change a thing he said, only by deepening our understanding of what 'the Church" consists of.

It's funny how God works that way, ain't it?
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia is a pretty good read.

The way the Church taught, "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church," they did place a limit on God's mercy and much of this doctrine centered around controlling people, especially the monarcrhy's of Europe.

There is plenty of dirty laundry in the Catholic Church's history. It's better to accept that it happened rather than to try and whitewash it.

Jim

 

[Root of Jesse]

The way the Church taught, "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church," they did place a limit on God's mercy and much of this doctrine centered around controlling people, especially the monarcrhy's of Europe.

There is plenty of dirty laundry in the Catholic Church's history. It's better to accept that it happened rather than to try and whitewash it.

Jim

I'm well aware of the dirty laundry, but the doctrine, if you read the Wiki article, comes from long before Boniface, and meant no such thing. You cal it controlling people, maybe there was a lot of concern for their souls at the same time. The monarchs of Europe were Catholic but had no hand in the doctrine of the Church.
Read what I wrote, Jim. Boniface, and the popes of the time were not good people, even wicked people. But the doctrine he used in his bull meant something different than what he tried to show it to mean. Again, God works in mysterious ways.

 

[concretecamper]

I wonder if people realize that by expanding God's mercy to fit their own ends they are placing limits on His justice.

Only God knows the proper balance.

 

[The Grouch]

I'm well aware of the dirty laundry, but the doctrine, if you read the Wiki article, comes from long before Boniface, and meant no such thing. You cal it controlling people, maybe there was a lot of concern for their souls at the same time. The monarchs of Europe were Catholic but had no hand in the doctrine of the Church.
Read what I wrote, Jim. Boniface, and the popes of the time were not good people, even wicked people. But the doctrine he used in his bull meant something different than what he tried to show it to mean. Again, God works in mysterious ways.

Indeed and concern for the very soul of christendom for which the concern now befalls us and we too lovingly remind others even our brothers, sisters and clergy of our own faith

Extra ecclasiam nulla salus

In the hope that someday the light will enter the minds of men and society as a whole

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm well aware of the dirty laundry, but the doctrine, if you read the Wiki article, comes from long before Boniface, and meant no such thing. You cal it controlling people, maybe there was a lot of concern for their souls at the same time. The monarchs of Europe were Catholic but had no hand in the doctrine of the Church.
Read what I wrote, Jim. Boniface, and the popes of the time were not good people, even wicked people. But the doctrine he used in his bull meant something different than what he tried to show it to mean. Again, God works in mysterious ways.

I don't have to read Boniface, I lived through the pre-Vatican II days when no salvation outside the Church, meant non-Catholics were going to hell.

Jim

 

[The Grouch]

I was sure pope benedict xvi had something to say on this subject recently

I found this

"Pope Benedict Breaks Silence and Affirms the Thrice Defined, Infallible Dogma, No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church"

"The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized were lost forever. After the Council this conviction was abandoned. This resulted in a deep crisis. Without being bound to salvation the faith is baseless."

"On the one hand it seems to withdraw any motivation a future missionary commitment. Why convince people of accepting the Christian faith, even if they can be saved without it?
But for Christians, the question on the necessity of faith and manner of life was uncertain and problematic. If there are those who can be saved in other ways, it is ultimately not evident why the Christian should be linked to the need of the Christian faith and its morals. But if the faith and salvation are not dependent on each other, the faith is also groundless.
Recently, various attempts have been made to bring to reconciliation the universal need of the Christian faith with the opportunity to save oneself without them."

"Even less acceptable is the solution proposed by the pluralistic religious theories for all religions, each in their own way, are ways of salvation and to be considered in this sense, in their effects, as equivalent. The religious criticism, the way it is practiced on the Old Testament and of the primordial church, is much more realistic, concrete and true in its examination of the various religions." The pluralistic religious theories are "superficial" and "is not appropriate to the size of the question."

The Eponymous Flower: Pope Benedict Breaks Silence and Affirms the Thrice Defined, Infallible Dogma, No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church

I think he makes a good point in regards to if no slavation outside the church is not true and that we can obtain salvation outside of the church... why be a catholic or a christian of any stripe

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I was sure pope benedict xvi had something to say on this subject recently

I found this

"Pope Benedict Breaks Silence and Affirms the Thrice Defined, Infallible Dogma, No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church"

"The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized were lost forever. After the Council this conviction was abandoned. This resulted in a deep crisis. Without being bound to salvation the faith is baseless."

"On the one hand it seems to withdraw any motivation a future missionary commitment. Why convince people of accepting the Christian faith, even if they can be saved without it?
But for Christians, the question on the necessity of faith and manner of life was uncertain and problematic. If there are those who can be saved in other ways, it is ultimately not evident why the Christian should be linked to the need of the Christian faith and its morals. But if the faith and salvation are not dependent on each other, the faith is also groundless.
Recently, various attempts have been made to bring to reconciliation the universal need of the Christian faith with the opportunity to save oneself without them."

"Even less acceptable is the solution proposed by the pluralistic religious theories for all religions, each in their own way, are ways of salvation and to be considered in this sense, in their effects, as equivalent. The religious criticism, the way it is practiced on the Old Testament and of the primordial church, is much more realistic, concrete and true in its examination of the various religions." The pluralistic religious theories are "superficial" and "is not appropriate to the size of the question."

The Eponymous Flower: Pope Benedict Breaks Silence and Affirms the Thrice Defined, Infallible Dogma, No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church

I think he makes a good point in regards to if no slavation outside the church is not true and that we can obtain salvation outside of the church... why be a catholic or a christian of any stripe

And yet the Catechism itself says those through no fault of their own, can be saved outside of the Church.

In fact, right after Pope Benedict XVI made the statement "No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church." the Vatican had to go into further explanation on the Catechism, for there was much misunderstanding of what Pope Benedict XVI was actually saying.


Jim

 

[The Grouch]

And yet the Catechism itself says those through no fault of their own, can be saved outside of the Church.

In fact, right after Pope Benedict XVI made the statement "No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church." the Vatican had to go into further explanation on the Catechism, for there was much misunderstanding of what Pope Benedict XVI was actually saying.


Jim

Ok, you will find no disagreement from me regarding your post... i have no problem with that...the word "can" is where i agree... yes by divine mercy and grace...but this is not the normal and ordained method... it is why i say outside of the catholic church there is no *assurance of* salvation

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ok, you will find no disagreement from me regarding your post... i have no problem with that...the word "can" is where i agree... yes by divine mercy and grace...but this is not the normal and ordained method... it is why i say outside of the catholic church there is no *assurance of* salvation

Even inside the Church there is no "assurance of" salvation.

Jim

 

[concretecamper]

Operative word is "can".

 

[The Grouch]

Even inside the Church there is no "assurance of" salvation.

Jim

If you hold the catholic faith and die in a state of grace you have the assurance of eternal life. Just because a person professes to be a catholic does not assure him or her of salvation....i agree

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you hold the catholic faith and die in a state of grace you have the assurance of eternal life. Just because a person professes to be a catholic does not assure him or her of salvation....i agree

Lot of "if's" there.

Jim

 

[The Grouch]

Lot of "if's" there.

Jim

Of course, its a narrow road