Extra ecclesia...

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I’m glad the church changed this teaching. I’m glad we realize that heaven is bigger than just us. And I’m glad the priest at my local church said that. We had a whole homily on how Protestants can get into heaven.

Remember: denominations don’t save you: only God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ saves you. Sometimes it’s good to remind myself that it really is that simple.

I think a lot of Catholics need that reminder. But was this a teaching that really changed? Was there a time when the Church thought salvation for Catholics only? Jesus Himself is the Way. I find it odd that people would actually believe that one brand of Church would save you even if all are proclaiming Christ.

Thank you for sharing this with me, it's nice to know I'm being saved from horrible life of sin, not by a loving relationship with God where I love Him they way He wants to be loved, but a "brand" yes that's all the Catholic Church is a "brand." I get sins forgiven not by Sacrament of the Church but a "brand," I did the Marian consecration, say the rosary, chaplets, the Little of Office of the Blessed Virgin everyday, not because the Lord loves His Mother so much, but simply because it's all part of the "brand."

I hope you all enjoy your brand church tomorrow. I may stop by tomorrow and say my final farewell before going on my Winter break, it'll depend on how my sanity is tomorrow farewell for now.

 

[Meowzltov]

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

I don't think this has changed. I think it is our understanding of what the Church is that has changed. We have broadened our concept of the boundaries of the Church. For example, we for sure see Protestants as having a certain, albeit imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[The Grouch]

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

I don't think this has changed. I think it is our understanding of what the Church is that has changed. We have broadened our concept of the boundaries of the Church. For example, we for sure see Protestants as having a certain, albeit imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Agreed, even non believers who have recieved baptism have a mark of sactifying grace and while we hope and pray they find the fullness of truth we still entrust such souls to the mercy of christ but we should not pressume christs mercy rather we should continue to hope, pray and do what we can to help these souls come to the fullness of the true faith

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It feels as if this is a false disagreement. We all agree that the church is of outermost importance. She has the keys to heaven.
We all know Christ loves the creation and mankind. We all believe that there will be no condemnation for those belong to Christ.
We all know Christ is mercy and just. Christ is our judge, he and he alone.
Christ tells us to get rid of our stone hearts and let him replace it with a beating living one.

If a person for whatever reason belongs to Christ even though he or she has rejected the Catholic church he or she will not be anathema.

There are as many reasons I'm assure as there are stars in the universe for people not to enter into communion with the church. Some more valid than others.
Scandals may be reasons to some, unclear direction from the Vatican another.

In the end it's Christ who judges and sees who's fit for entering his kingdom.
Meanwhile we should lead souls to his church, its where the road is safest. We should claim to be the church, the one church. But we cannot judge those outside our communion. Its NOT our business.

There is no incompatibility between preaching about Christ and his church and not to pass on judgement.
The two worlds very well together.

R we really disagreeing about this or do we just think we are?

 

[Michie]

Thank you for sharing this with me, it's nice to know I'm being saved from horrible life of sin, not by a loving relationship with God where I love Him they way He wants to be loved, but a "brand" yes that's all the Catholic Church is a "brand." I get sins forgiven not by Sacrament of the Church but a "brand," I did the Marian consecration, say the rosary, chaplets, the Little of Office of the Blessed Virgin everyday, not because the Lord loves His Mother so much, but simply because it's all part of the "brand."

I hope you all enjoy eating your brand-bread at your brand church tomorrow. I may stop by tomorrow and say my final farewell before going on my Winter break, it'll depend on how my sanity is tomorrow farewell for now.

You are awfully hostile all the sudden and twisting what was said here. Enjoy your break. Sounds like you need it.

 

[The Grouch]

It feels as if this is a false disagreement. We all agree that the church is of outermost importance. She has the keys to heaven.
We all know Christ loves the creation and mankind. We all believe that there will be no condemnation for those belong to Christ.
We all know Christ is mercy and just. Christ is our judge, he and he alone.
Christ tells us to get rid of our stone hearts and let him replace it with a beating living one.

If a person for whatever reason belongs to Christ even though he or she has rejected the Catholic church he or she will not be anathema.

There are as many reasons I'm assure as there are stars in the universe for people not to enter into communion with the church. Some more valid than others.
Scandals may be reasons to some, unclear direction from the Vatican another.

In the end it's Christ who judges and sees who's fit for entering his kingdom.
Meanwhile we should lead souls to his church, its where the road is safest. We should claim to be the church, the one church. But we cannot judge those outside our communion. Its NOT our business.

There is no incompatibility between preaching about Christ and his church and not to pass on judgement.
The two worlds very well together.

R we really disagreeing about this or do we just think we are?

"If a person for whatever reason belongs to Christ even though he or she has rejected the Catholic church he or she will not be anathema"

"Whoever rejects you, rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" - Jesus Christ to his Church circa 33ad

 

[concretecamper]

1. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.
2. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
3. For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.
4. The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

I'm not taking any side's in this discussion. But here are 4 dogmas of the Catholic faith which every Catholic is bound to believe. I've heard some people say that these are just for Catholics but i dont believe that.

I wonder if you can square a Universalist belief with these 4 dogmas.

 

[Michie]

Doesn't the Catechism state that other believers in Christ are united with the Church? Albeit imperfectly? What does that mean?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

"If a person for whatever reason belongs to Christ even though he or she has rejected the Catholic church he or she will not be anathema"

"Whoever rejects you, rejects me and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me" - Jesus Christ to his Church circa 33ad

Yes, but today the situation is complicated as how to interpret and apply that scripture.
Christ told this to his apostles before any schism and ecclesiastical chaos.

Today we see the successors of other apostles believing different things than we do. Yes we firmly hold and rightly so that the Roman Catholic Church is the one, but we can't mechanically apply this scriptural passage on eastern orthodox or oriental orthodox without any consideration.

Its not as simple.

 

[Rhamiel]

This modern view has killed evangelism efforts and has added fuel to the fire of apathy for religion

 

[Rhamiel]

Read this
Unam Sanctam - Papal Encyclicals

 

[Tallguy88]

Subscribed.
I really wish I could read, what I'm sure are excellent arguments by TradCats in defence of this beautiful precious gift that is the Mystical Body of Christ, but I'm so angry that I just can't, I really angry at someone on this thread because of this person's comment, and am tempted to say someone really nasty at said person.

I hope it's not me. I have no intent to offend anyone or diminish anyone else's faith or beliefs.

 

[Tallguy88]

Thank you for sharing this with me, it's nice to know I'm being saved from horrible life of sin, not by a loving relationship with God where I love Him they way He wants to be loved, but a "brand" yes that's all the Catholic Church is a "brand." I get sins forgiven not by Sacrament of the Church but a "brand," I did the Marian consecration, say the rosary, chaplets, the Little of Office of the Blessed Virgin everyday, not because the Lord loves His Mother so much, but simply because it's all part of the "brand."

I hope you all enjoy eating your brand-bread at your brand church tomorrow. I may stop by tomorrow and say my final farewell before going on my Winter break, it'll depend on how my sanity is tomorrow farewell for now.

I'm sorry if you feel I was diminishing either the Church or your faith/practice. That was in no way my intent. If you are enriched spiritually by taking on these devotions that you have, then that's great! It's not for me to say otherwise; "To each according to his own". I also never said the church was a "brand". I said "denomination" which may not be the correct word theologically, but it is in the ordinary sense of the term that ordinary people use it.

My only point with this thread was to celebrate the fact that everyone, Protestant or Catholic, can be saved and go to heaven if they have faith in Jesus. This is exactly what the priest said during his homily and also what I find to be taught in the Catechism. I may not have worded the OP very well, so I apologize if I came off as sounding like I was diminishing the Catholic Church, that was not my intent.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From the CCC

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.


///////////////

Having been raised in Pre-Vatican II, I can tell you, that we were taught that those who were not members of the institutional Catholic Church, would not be saved.

In fact, we were forbidden to step foot inside of a protestant church.

I had to quit Cub Scouts, because the den mother who was forced out of the Church because she was divorced, ran the den meetings in the basement of a protestant church.

Today, as you see in the Catechism post I provided, the Church now tap dances around what she use to teach.

Jesus is the savior of the world. No one goes to the Father except through Him. The Catholic Church has the fullness of revealed truth, but not all truth, because not all has been revealed.

Jim

 

[Tallguy88]

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

I don't think this has changed. I think it is our understanding of what the Church is that has changed. We have broadened our concept of the boundaries of the Church. For example, we for sure see Protestants as having a certain, albeit imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

That may be true. I was just using the words of the priest at Mass. He definitely said the teaching changed. He even used the words extra ecclessia nulla salus when talking about the "old teaching" that we don't believe anymore. I'm not overly familiar with this priest, but he seems solid in his teachings. I had a good confession with him and he flat out said in another homily that people need to go to Confession once a week and he was praising kids being taught their prayers in Latin. So I don't get the sense that he's a wishy washy kind of guy.

 

[Tallguy88]

1. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.
2. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.
3. For children before the age of reason, the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.
4. The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin.

I'm not taking any side's in this discussion. But here are 4 dogmas of the Catholic faith which every Catholic is bound to believe. I've heard some people say that these are just for Catholics but i dont believe that.

I wonder if you can square a Universalist belief with these 4 dogmas.

Who has preached the universalist heresy in this thread? Certainly not me. No one who denies Christ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. The bible is very clear on that point.

 

[Tallguy88]

Read this
Unam Sanctam - Papal Encyclicals

This is probably what the priest was talking about that the church doesn't believe anymore. At least, the Church teaches that the boundaries of the church are bigger than what we know for sure (that is to say, bigger than just visible members of the Catholic church).

I reject any teaching which says that anyone who is not Catholic automatically goes to hell, without regards to any other consideration. I don't believe the Catholic church teaches that view, however.

 

[Tallguy88]

From the CCC

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.


///////////////

Having been raised in Pre-Vatican II, I can tell you, that we were taught that those who were not members of the institutional Catholic Church, would not be saved.

In fact, we were forbidden to step foot inside of a protestant church.

I had to quit Cub Scouts, because the den mother who was forced out of the Church because she was divorced, ran the den meetings in the basement of a protestant church.

Today, as you see in the Catechism post I provided, the Church now tap dances around what she use to teach.

Jesus is the savior of the world. No one goes to the Father except through Him. The Catholic Church has the fullness of revealed truth, but not all truth, because not all has been revealed.

Jim

Thanks for posting the official teaching and for sharing your experience with how things are handled differently.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I’m glad the church changed this teaching. I’m glad we realize that heaven is bigger than just us. And I’m glad the priest at my local church said that. We had a whole homily on how Protestants can get into heaven.

Remember: denominations don’t save you: only God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ saves you. Sometimes it’s good to remind myself that it really is that simple.

I'm sorry, but there has been no change, TG. What has changed is the understanding of what "the Church" is. Even the speaker of that saying didn't know what he was saying, but the Holy Spirit has shown us.
"c"atholic is Christ's call to us. "C"atholic (or Baptist or whatever) is our answer to that call. But the doctrine "Extra ecclesia nulla sallus" is still true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This is probably what the priest was talking about that the church doesn't believe anymore. At least, the Church teaches that the boundaries of the church are bigger than what we know for sure (that is to say, bigger than just visible members of the Catholic church).

I reject any teaching which says that anyone who is not Catholic automatically goes to hell, without regards to any other consideration. I don't believe the Catholic church teaches that view, however.

TG, that's not what the teaching ever said. The Church doesn't, and has never detailed, who is in hell.