Exodus evidence

[Astrid]

Do you not see the problem here?
According to your link of the 20,000 men women and children only 5,000 were of men aged over 20.
Assuming the were no Amazon like warriors and only men did the fighting, a force of only around 5,000 fought its way out of Egypt.
When the Egyptians fought the Hittites at Kadesh north of Canaan it was estimated the number of Egyptians was up to 50,000 soldiers indicating the Egyptians could muster large military forces.
Do you think 5,000 slaves would have a chance against 50,000 soldiers?

There is another to problem to consider, the longevity of ancient Egypt was due to deserts on its east and west flanks providing an effective defensive barrier.
The first recorded successful military invasion of Egypt from the east was by the Assyrians in the 7th century BC.

Assyrian conquest of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(There was no Hyksos invasion of Egypt in the 17th century BC but a gradual and slow migration from the east into the Nile Delta from which the Hyksos eventually gained control of most of Egypt).

To survive in the Sinai desert for up to 40 years would require a supply line from Egypt, would you think the Egyptians would be have been so obliging?

Manna. They got food air dropped.

 

[Astrid]

It is not a "fact" that scripture is largely allegorical. It is just an opinion. In the same way , it is not a "fact" that scripture is literal history. That is is also just an opinion.

I'm not gonna get into that augean labour.

 

[Ted-01]

It is not a "fact" that scripture is largely allegorical. It is just an opinion. In the same way , it is not a "fact" that scripture is literal history. That is is also just an opinion.

I'm sorry, but that is kinda' confusing to me... could you expound on your thoughts?

It seems to me to be statement of "sitting on fences"... IDK.

I believe that the Scriptures are not "largely allegorical".
I also, believe that not everything is literal history.
In my experience, whenever some narrative in the Scriptures is not literal, it very often communicates that in some way. Exceptions are without doubt there... poetic writings, apocalyptic, prophetic, and wisdom literature commonly use allegory, simile, metaphor, synecdoche, metonymy, personification, etc., etc. The list can be overwhelming. But I don't believe that the repeated use of any of those within and historical narrative moves it out of the realm of being literal, in the sense that things happened in a substantively different way.

But honestly, I prefer to hang out in the Christian-only section... so, I don't want to get into a long discussion here. I just wanted to drop the link for Patterns of Discovery.

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you not see the problem here?
According to your link of the 20,000 men women and children only 5,000 were of men aged over 20.
Assuming the were no Amazon like warriors and only men did the fighting, a force of only around 5,000 fought its way out of Egypt.
When the Egyptians fought the Hittites at Kadesh north of Canaan it was estimated the number of Egyptians was up to 50,000 soldiers indicating the Egyptians could muster large military forces.
Do you think 5,000 slaves would have a chance against 50,000 soldiers?

There is another to problem to consider, the longevity of ancient Egypt was due to deserts on its east and west flanks providing an effective defensive barrier.
The first recorded successful military invasion of Egypt from the east was by the Assyrians in the 7th century BC.

Assyrian conquest of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(There was no Hyksos invasion of Egypt in the 17th century BC but a gradual and slow migration from the east into the Nile Delta from which the Hyksos eventually gained control of most of Egypt).

To survive in the Sinai desert for up to 40 years would require a supply line from Egypt, would you think the Egyptians would be have been so obliging?

I was only counting or including the men aged over 20, and in my link, it shows how it is closer to 20K men, which really shows that you actually read it, or even looked at it, etc, but and/or anyway, if we were to include the women and children, the count is around 50 to 70K approx., but I was only talking about the men, which in the link I provided, shows how that count is supposed to actually be 20-22 K men, etc.

You still have to believe is some things "other natural" to believe the exodus story, like being other naturally provided for in the wilderness, and also the red sea incident, and God's ability to give them victory in war, etc, etc, etc.

But I only want to get into the number of them right now, for now, etc.

 

[BCP1928]

I'm sorry, but that is kinda' confusing to me... could you expound on your thoughts?

It seems to me to be statement of "sitting on fences"... IDK.

I believe that the Scriptures are not "largely allegorical".
I also, believe that not everything is literal history.
In my experience, whenever some narrative in the Scriptures is not literal, it very often communicates that in some way. Exceptions are without doubt there... poetic writings, apocalyptic, prophetic, and wisdom literature commonly use allegory, simile, metaphor, synecdoche, metonymy, personification, etc., etc. The list can be overwhelming. But I don't believe that the repeated use of any of those within and historical narrative moves it out of the realm of being literal, in the sense that things happened in a substantively different way.

But honestly, I prefer to hang out in the Christian-only section... so, I don't want to get into a long discussion here. I just wanted to drop the link for Patterns of Discovery.

Yes, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. In fact it is not substantially different from mine. But "literal," as it is generally used in this forum means something rather more. I doubt, for example, that your idea of "literal" would allow you to assert with absolute certainty that the Earth was created on October 23rd, 4004 BC at nine o'clock in the morning, and if science say any different it is a lie of Satan.

 

[sjastro]

I was only counting or including the men aged over 20, and in my link, it shows how it is closer to 20K men, which really shows that you actually read it, or even looked at it, etc, but and/or anyway, if we were to include the women and children, the count is around 50 to 70K approx., but I was only talking about the men, which in the link I provided, shows how that count is supposed to actually be 20-22 K men, etc.

The preview page in your link explicitly states 5,000 men over the age of twenty and 20,000 men, women and children total.
Even if you want to make up your own numbers there is still the unrealistic supply line from Egypt to consider.

You still have to believe is some things "other natural" to believe the exodus story, like being other naturally provided for in the wilderness, and also the red sea incident, and God's ability to give them victory in war, etc, etc, etc.

But I only want to get into the number of them right now, for now, etc.

Then this should not have been posted in a science forum which does not take miracles into account.

 

[sjastro]

Manna. They got food air dropped.

Why the change of spelling in your username?

 

[AV1611VET]

I was only counting or including the men aged over 20, and in my link, it shows how it is closer to 20K men,

Yup.

Get that decimal place in the right spot.

Fudge those numbers until they make the Bible look like a book of distorted facts.

 

[Astrid]

Why the change of spelling in your username?

It's what I originally intended

 

[Semper-Fi]

But I can't get an academian around here to comment on its validity.

Her is an article about different views of Were
"Mount Sinai, the biblical mountain of God" is.

Where Is Mount Sinai? Part 1: Not in Saudi Arabia

A two-part series in defense of the traditional southern Sinai Peninsula site. In this first installment, we address the increasingly popular Saudi Arabia theory.

armstronginstitute.org

Where Is Mount Sinai? Part 2: Journey to Jabal Musa

In this second installment of our two-part series, we retrace the Israelites' journey into the southern Sinai Peninsula—to Jabal Musa.

armstronginstitute.org

 

[Semper-Fi]

Based on archaeological discoveries alone, how much would we actually know about ancient Israel?

What Would We Know About Ancient Israel—If We Didn’t Have the Bible?

Quite a lot, it turns out

armstronginstitute.org

 

[Mrpp]

Even if not all Habirus were Israelites the problem is with the chronology, if Joshua is contemporary with the pharaoh Akhenaton and the Exodus occurred 40 years beforehand this takes us to the early part of Amenhotep III's reign.
According to Egyptologists Amenhotep's reign was extremely prosperous as evidenced by the high level of building activity which occurred during his reign.
If we accept Exodus and Numbers, the number of Israelites that fled Egypt was around 600,000 men which would mean a total of around 2 million including women and children.
Not only would this represent a sizeable reduction in ancient Egypt's workforce but also a significant decrease in its population.
It would have been impossible for Amenhotep III's reign to be prosperous let alone accelerate the building activity during this period.

Okay first of all before addressing chronology main reason why I think Exodus happened was beacuse if such event happened it would skahe egyptian beliefs and would make changes into something like monotheism. This precisely what happened. This start was initiated by Amenhotep 3 and even Totmes 4 mentions great God. And we have also invasion on caanan in this period. To be said I admit I made mistake and didn't paid attention to chronology as much as I should so now I looked into chronology more. Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “Nothing strikes us as more extraordinary than the condition of injury and confusion in which the most important buildings of Egypt seem to have remained,” Petrie wrote. “The most imposing works stood amidst half-ruined and unfinished halls for a whole reign; other parts were walled off to hide offensive memorials; other structures were either incomplete or half-ruined” (ibid). (Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).

But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.

 

[Astrid]

Based on archaeological discoveries alone, how much would we actually know about ancient Israel?

What Would We Know About Ancient Israel—If We Didn’t Have the Bible?

Quite a lot, it turns out

armstronginstitute.org

Fewer things that didnt happen

 

[sjastro]

Okay first of all before addressing chronology main reason why I think Exodus happened was beacuse if such event happened it would skahe egyptian beliefs and would make changes into something like monotheism. This precisely what happened. This start was initiated by Amenhotep 3 and even Totmes 4 mentions great God. And we have also invasion on caanan in this period. To be said I admit I made mistake and didn't paid attention to chronology as much as I should so now I looked into chronology more. Since armana letters are written to amenhotep 3 and akhenathen and we know Akhenathen shared co rulership with his father going back 40 years from armana letters description of Caanan conquest it would mean Amenhotep 2 was pharaoh of Exodus. Beacuse of it there are more evidence for Exodus during his period.
- Massive abandonment
The same is true of his monuments, none of which, as Petrie wrote, can be “dated above the fifth year.” Furthermore, of the monuments we do have from Amenhotep ii’s reign, some of them are clearly only partially complete. “Nothing strikes us as more extraordinary than the condition of injury and confusion in which the most important buildings of Egypt seem to have remained,” Petrie wrote. “The most imposing works stood amidst half-ruined and unfinished halls for a whole reign; other parts were walled off to hide offensive memorials; other structures were either incomplete or half-ruined” (ibid). (Add to this the destruction of of Hatshepsut’s monuments at this time.)tying back to the above-mentioned Hyksos/Semites who immigrated into northern Egypt from Canaan. A site known as Avaris/Tell el-Dab’a has long been identified as a chief location of their occupation, from which they ruled during earlier centuries, and within which they continued to live following their overthrow at the start of the New Kingdom period. Dr. Manfred Bietak, chief excavator of Tell el-Dab’a, stated that following their overthrow in the 16th century b.c.e., “there is mounting evidence to suggest that a large part of this population stayed in Egypt and served their new overlords in various capacities” (article, “From Where Came the Hyksos and Where Did They Go?”).

But even more notable, for our purposes here, is when this city ceased to function—when it was finally abandoned by its Semitic inhabitants. Archaeologist Dr. Scott Stripling highlights the following in Five Views on the Exodus: Historicity, Chronology and Theological Implications: “Bietak’s stratigraphic analysis [of Tell el-Dab’a] reveals a clear abandonment in the mid-18th Dynasty, during or after the reign of Amenhotep ii. … [T]he latest identifiable pottery dates to the reign of Amenhotep ii. … Much of Avaris Stratum d/1 (in Area F/I) to Stratum c (Area H/I-VI) points to the presence of a Semitic population until the mysterious abandonment.”
- sickness
n 1907, when Amenhotep ii’s mummified body was examined, scientists noticed the presence of unusual tubercles all over the body. Grafton Elliot Smith, who studied the corpse, wondered whether the tubercles developed during the embalming process or were, rather, the product of disease. As he wrote in “A Note on the Mummies in the Tomb of Amenhotep ii at Bibân el Molouk” (1907): “The skin over the whole body [of Amenhotep ii] is thickly studded with small projections or tubercles from 0 m. 002 mill. to 0 m. 008 mill. in diameter. At present I am unable to determine whether they are the results of some disease or merely the effects of the embalmer’s salt-bath, but they are.
- Death of Firstborn
Why was Thutmose iv son of Amenhotep 2 compelled to publicly declare that he was divinely installed? Because he was not the firstborn, presumptive heir to Egypt’s throne. “It is unfortunate that the events surrounding the accession of Thutmosis iv
are so obscure,” writes Egyptologist Peter Der Manuelian, “especially since his Dream Stele between the paws of the Great Sphinx suggests that he was not the originally intended heir to the throne“ (Studies in the Reign of Amenophis ii)
- Decrease in military power.
There is also much more decrease in military power of Egypt. Many pharaohs in from that time are having much more peacefull politics. Not to mention Amenhotep 3 made a lot of statues to the goddess of healing as opposed to war.

Here is an analysis of your post in bullet form.

• Using Flinders Petrie as a reference is problematic as his archaeological work in Egypt is from the late 19th to early 20th century and out of date.
• Based on current archaeology Amenhotep II building activities occurred throughout his reign but in the early years was mainly focused in completing the building works of his father Thutmose III whose energies where largely devoted to military conquest and not local affairs.
• The Hyksos may have been a Semitic people but they were not Hebrews as their religion was polytheist. They migrated to the Nile delta and eventually brought most of Egypt under control by the 17th century BC establishing their capital at Avaris. After being expelled by the time of the New Kingdom it was only natural for the capital to be eventually abandoned as the seat of power was transferred to Thebes.
• The Aten which formed the basis of monotheism in Egypt started off as a minor sun god but was developed into a separate cult under Amenhotep III. This does not mean monotheism began under Amenhotep III as is evidenced from his name which means “Peace to Amon” which was Egypt’s major god. Monotheism began under his son Amenhotep IV who changed his name to Akhenaton which means “Effective of the Aten”.
• The mummy of Amenhotep II found in his tomb along with a cache of other mummies was rewrapped during the 21st dynasty over four hundred years after he died. This was because the Valley of the Kings was being systemically looted at the time and the royal mummies were being stripped and dismembered by tomb robbers looking for precious artefacts within the bandages. It would not be surprising the tubercles found on Amenhotep’s mummy may also have been caused by the abuse on his mummy by both the tomb robbers and those responsible for re-embalming and rewrapping the mummy.

The bullet points supported by evidence indicates there is no reason to deviate from the mainstream view and the Exodus did not occur in any pharaoh’s reign.

 

[sjastro]

The mummy of Amenhotep II found in his tomb along with a cache of other mummies was rewrapped during the 21st dynasty over four hundred years after he died. This was because the Valley of the Kings was being systemically looted at the time and the royal mummies were being stripped and dismembered by tomb robbers looking for precious artefacts within the bandages. It would not be surprising the tubercles found on Amenhotep’s mummy may also have been caused by the abuse on his mummy by both the tomb robbers and those responsible for re-embalming and rewrapping the mummy.

On the subject of the 21st dynasty Egypt had collapsed into anarchy, the pharaohs only controlled lower Egypt, the High Priests of Amun controlled Middle and Upper Egypt.
At this time the Valley of the Kings in Upper Egypt containing the tombs of the pharaohs from the 18th to the 20th dynasties was being systematically looted.
The High Priests had the mummies of over 50 kings, queens, and assorted nobles moved from the Valley of the Kings to various sites such as the tomb of Amenhotep II, the mortuary temple of the 18th dynasty female pharaoh Hatshepsut and a hidden recess in the cliffs at Deir el-Bahari to preserve them from further desecration by grave robbers.

In many case the mummies were dismembered and the 21st dynasty embalmers had to literally glue the mummies back together such as Amenhotep I whose mummy was forensically examined in 2021.

Digital Unwrapping of the Mummy of King Amenhotep I (1525–1504 BC) Using CT

The mummy of King Amenhotep I (18th Dynasty c.1525–1504 BC) was reburied by the 21st Dynasty priests at Deir el-Bahari Royal Cache. In 1881 the mummy was found fully wrapped and was one of few royal mummies that have not been unwrapped in modern times. We hypothesized that non-invasive digital...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[AV1611VET]

I remember when this place used to really hop.

With discussions on everything from Lake Suigetsu to ring species to SN1987A to Coelacanth fossils to Tiktaalik to you name it!

 

[Ace777]

How many times have you seen someone ask/demand evidence of the Exodus?

Telemarketers, catfish scammers and atheists are all reading the same script.
The only difference is they are not all in the same room as the marketers and scammer are.

What they do not take into consideration is that people need water and there is not much water in the desert. So it is pretty easy to find where they were camping out at. In addition to the camp sites looked like a foot because of the law required the garbage dump to be a distance from where the people were living. The same distance they are allowed to travel on the sabbath.

The book walking the bible is interesting and the PBS program on YouTube is even more interesting. Journalist Bruce Feiler goes to the places we read about in our Bible and he finds evidence that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. No one has ever found a mistake, error or contradiction in the Bible. That is why I do not believe in errors in evolutionary theory.

 

[AV1611VET]

That is why I do not believe in errors in evolutionary theory.

According to theistic evolution, Adam is a mutant, copy error, made in the likeness and image of God.

That, to me, is blasphemy.

 

[Ace777]

According to theistic evolution, Adam is a mutant,

Theistic evolution is a view that God acts and creates through laws of nature. Mutant theory is not a part of that. Even science can not deny that God could have created the laws of Physics. Even God tells us that HIs Justice is as exact and precise as the universe. This means that the laws of physics are very exact and precise.

Do you have a problem with science or with peoples attempt to hijack science for their own agenda?

That is why I asked when creation took place and you said you go by Bishop Usher's book. I think there is a good reason why that book is still in print after 500 years in consideration to the fact that people can read it free on line.

 

[AV1611VET]

Theistic evolution is a view that God acts and creates through laws of nature.

Yes, I know.

Mutant theory is not a part of that.

Are you telling me, Ace, that we are not mutant, copy errors?

Do you even know what I'm asking?

If I wasn't a mutant, copy error, I would look just like my parents.

Even science can not deny that God could have created the laws of Physics.

Yes.

God created the laws of physics.

After the fact.

The Creation Week is a series of one miracle after another after another, over a period of six days, that raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

Even God tells us that HIs Justice is as exact and precise as the universe.

Okay.

This means that the laws of physics are very exact and precise.

Okay.

Do you have a problem with science or with peoples attempt to hijack science for their own agenda?

I have a problem with people using science to contradict the Bible.

I have a problem with people demanding evidence for things that were miracles.

Especially miracles that didn't produce any evidence.

That is why I asked when creation took place and you said you go by Bishop Usher's book. I think there is a good reason why that book is still in print after 500 years in consideration to the fact that people can read it free on line.

Neat.