Exodus evidence

[Mrpp]

Does your egyptologist connect evidence of
a crisis to the exodus story, or is that your
interpretation?

Those are not my words

 

[Mrpp]

Good question.

Looks like science can't help you out of this one.

What evidence is there that Jesus was laid in a tomb?

None.

All evidence is gone.

Yet it is one of the fundamental Christian beliefs.

We know from Tacitius that he was cruxified and started Christianity. Those are one of the main points in christianity. Tacitius is considered by historians as one of the most reliable source for historicity in those times.

 

[Astrid]

Those are not my words

Of course. But I didn't ask that.

 

[sjastro]

Egyptologist Arielle Kozloff reports growing evidence of a surprising and prolonged pause in the otherwise heavy documentation of Amenhotep III’s reign. She writes that the gap almost certainly signifies a national crisis, adding that evidence is mounting of massive deaths from epidemics, reminiscent of the biblical tenth plague. She cites documentary evidence that important officials died and had to be replaced when the crisis drew to a close. She suspects that this pharaoh’s first-born son died during this period, as did his inlaws, Thuya and Yuya, both of whom died of malaria. Amenhotep III ordered hundreds of statues of war and plague goddess Sekhmet to be made and prayed to; Kozloff believes this was in response to the epidemics. His Sekhmet worship may have biblical significance. The first biblical plague may have led the Egyptians to focus their prayers for relief from the biblical plagues by replicating an Egyptian myth in which Sekhmet turned the Nile’s waters red with blood. Furthermore we have descriptions from of heavy building by Israelits so we can assume most of those buildings were started to be built before exodus or even before Amenhotep 3.

Arielle Kozloff is very much an outlier as the overwhelming consensus is Amenhotep III reigned over a prosperous Egypt as evidenced by the number of building projects in his reign which he was able to finance.
Egypt’s prosperity at the time was aided by tribute from its subject city states in Canaan and beyond which came under Egyptian control in the early 18th dynasty.

Its population at the time was estimated at not much more than 3 million which could be supported by the agriculture of the time.
If Exodus was a literal account then Egypt suddenly lost 2/3 of its population which would have destroyed its infrastructure.
The Egyptian economy would have recovered in a miraculously short period of time as Akhenaton, Amenhotep III’s son began his monotheist revolution involving moving the capital to Amarna which was built from scratch and required the financial and manpower resources.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'd like to know what's possible with Hebrew/Israelite numbers close to 20K men, instead of the severely inflated 600K men by that time? because that's what I believe those numbers actually are, or should be now, etc. Not only was it impossible for the Hebrew/Israelite numbers to come to that many from the number they originally were in that amount of time, but I also found a paper that I put on here before (but it seems to have gotten ignored) but and/or anyway, it very clearly shows an error in translation leading to those severely inflated, and very impossible numbers by that time, etc. This error was in Numbers and Exodus, etc. It made them much, much more than what they actually were, or should be, etc.

So what's possible/impossible with them numbering around 20K men by that time?

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not only was it impossible for the Hebrew/Israelite numbers to come to that many from the number they originally were in that amount of time,

Population of United States after 248 years = 333.3 million

Population of Israelites in Egypt after 430 years = 2 million

What's the problem?

 

[Neogaia777]

Population of United States after 248 years = 333.3 million

Population of Israelites in Egypt after 430 years = 2 million

What's the problem?

You seem to forget that these all supposedly came from Jacob and his family, and that's the problem.

America, is an entirely different story.

The paper I found shows all of this, tells you exactly how much they would have had to multiply in that time frame, from just that family, and that it is not very likely, and then it gets into the errors in translation with the numbers, but since no one seems to care, and it's not very likely to change anyone's mind, I'm not going to even bother linking it again here, etc. I did it before, argued for it before, and nothing changed, etc. For if I did, it would be ignored, and then forgotten, and people on both sides would still just continue on with the mistranslated numbers, still thinking they are correct, or is the only way they can be translated, etc. And you guys still arguing for those numbers now is the proof, etc. And pointless ventures are a waste of my time, so, etc.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

You seem to forget that these all supposedly came from Jacob and his family, and that's the problem.

No they all didn't come from Jacob and his family.

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

America, is an entirely different story.

You said it was "impossible," and I submit America shows you you're wrong.

The paper I found shows all of this,

Except for the mixt multitude, or you would have mentioned it.

... tells you exactly how much they would have had to multiply in that time frame, from just that family, and that it is not very likely,

I take it that paper doesn't mention the testimony of the midwives, who told Pharaoh these Hebrews are multiplying right, left, and center?

Exodus 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

As John Wesley put it:

I see no reason we have to doubt the truth of this; it is plain they were now under an extraordinary blessing of increase ...

... and then it gets into the errors in translation with the numbers,

Yup.

Like a true academian, I'm sure the author of your paper would have gotten around to saying the Bible got it wrong sooner or later.

If you can't beat Mike Tyson in the ring, just sit on the sidelines and bad mouth him.

 

[Neogaia777]

No they all didn't come from Jacob and his family.

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.



You said it was "impossible," and I submit America shows you you're wrong.



Except for the mixt multitude, or you would have mentioned it.



I take it that paper doesn't mention the testimony of the midwives, who told Pharaoh these Hebrews are multiplying right, left, and center?

Exodus 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

As John Wesley put it:

I see no reason we have to doubt the truth of this; it is plain they were now under an extraordinary blessing of increase ...



Yup.

Like a true academian, I'm sure the author of your paper would have gotten around to saying the Bible got it wrong sooner or later.

If you can't beat Mike Tyson in the ring, just sit on the sidelines and bad mouth him.

You are a Hebrew or Israelite by birth, or it has to be hereditary, or must be in your lineage, or your bloodline, or else you are not one, and before the Hebrews became a multitude of slaves, however many that was or means in Exodus, or by the time we get to Exodus, etc, it started before they became slaves at the end of Genesis with just only Jacob and his family (sons) to start, etc, and the multitude after that, would have had to been born from just them at the start, etc, and to get to 600K men in just 400 or so years? Anyway, was pretty much impossible, etc.

And as far as America goes, it did not start with just 12 men, or 12 sons, that then had to have sons born to them to be a part of the nation, etc, but were way, way more than that, etc, and besides that even, was also constantly being added to constantly and very much greatly from the start and all throughout it's entire growth, with a constant and steady brand new influx of brand new settlers and immigrants from all over the rest of the world all coming in new on ships daily, etc. America, and being declared an American, did not depend on heritage, or a lineage, or a bloodline, etc, but has always been a melting pot of people from all over who all bred and who were also all breeding with each other the whole time also throughout that entire time, etc.

So, as you can see, they are not at all the same, etc.

And it would have been impossible in the Hebrews case, no matter how much or how greatly or how quickly they multiplied, to become 600K men in just 400 or so years of time, etc, because to be a Hebrew/Israelite, it had to be by blood, or all come from a certain family's (Jacob's at the start) lineage or bloodline, or you were not ever counted as one, etc, which would have been impossible from just 12 men both back then, or at any time, etc.

America was a bunch of a bunch of different people from all over that were all being added to daily from all over and who were all constantly multiplying and growing together and it never depended on blood, or a lineage, or a bloodline, etc.

The two are not at all the same, and are not even anywhere close to being the same, etc.

Very, very, very poor analogy or example, etc.

The two are not even anywhere close to being the same.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

The two are not even anywhere close to being the same.

Let's put an end to this charade, shall we?

Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on that verse:

And now, from so small a beginning, they were multiplied to more than 600,000 souls; and this indeed in the space of forty years, for the 603,000 which came out of Egypt were at this time all dead but Moses, Joshua, and Caleb. How easily can God increase and multiply, and how easily diminish and bring low! In all things, because of his unlimited power, he can do whatsoever he will; and he will do whatsoever is right.

Any questions?

 

[Neogaia777]

Let's put an end to this charade, shall we?

Deuteronomy 10:22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary on that verse:

And now, from so small a beginning, they were multiplied to more than 600,000 souls; and this indeed in the space of forty years, for the 603,000 which came out of Egypt were at this time all dead but Moses, Joshua, and Caleb. How easily can God increase and multiply, and how easily diminish and bring low! In all things, because of his unlimited power, he can do whatsoever he will; and he will do whatsoever is right.

Any questions?

Good Ole King James. Too bad it's wrong, and is where the error started, etc.

I'll dig up the link to the paper, and post it on here again later, when I'm not in bed trying to sleep, and not working from my phone, etc.

And you guys can just do whatever you want with it after that, but I guessing you @AV1611VET will probably just completely ignore it though probably.

Root word of "ignore" being "ignorance" (or the other way around) after all, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Ted-01]

They're called "miracles."

Miracles are usually void of evidence by design.

Or, if any evidence happens to be generated, are short lived.

With two exceptions:

Meandering rivers and white cliffs.



What about Ron Wyatt?

He put out a video that even has me thinking that maybe there might be evidence of the Exodus crossing.

But I can't get an academian around here to comment on its validity.

I'm kinda hoping, in the back of my mind, that an academian will actually tell me where Ron is wrong, so I can stick to my belief that the Exodus didn't leave any evidence behind.

But if both of us are wrong (I and academia), then so be it.

It would only be a minor change in thinking to me; but a major change in academic circles.

I don't know squat about Ron Wyatt, but there's another guy that looked into all and published several films. His name is Timothy Mahoney, a film maker, not an academic type. His approach, though, was rather "forensic" in nature.

You can check his work out... Patterns of Evidence
I saw a couple of the films and was intrigued.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good Ole King James. Too bad it's wrong, and is where the error started, etc.

Really?

It started with the King James?

Let's use the AV1599 Geneva then, shall we?

Numbers 1:46 And all they were in number six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty.

Or even academia's go to bible, the HNIV:

Numbers 1:46 The total number was 603,550.

Does the NIV, which is supposed to be more accurate than the KJV, perpetuate this error too?

 

[Neogaia777]

Really?

It started with the King James?

Let's use the AV1599 Geneva then, shall we?

Numbers 1:46 And all they were in number six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty.

Or even academia's go to bible, the HNIV:

Numbers 1:46 The total number was 603,550.

Does the NIV, which is supposed to be more accurate than the KJV, perpetuate this error too?

I'll get the link to the paper later, but no, it wasn't just the KJV, but is an error that has been perpetuated and repeated in many multiple different translations to where almost none are accurate when it comes to these numbers, etc.

Later, and when I'm not as tired, I'll provide the link for the paper, and try to provide a summary of the "mess up" and where and when and how it occurred, and how it kept/keeps occurring, as well.

Just not right now.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'll get the link to the paper later,

Please don't bother on my account.

I'm not really interested.

I'll take your word for what the paper says about the number being wrong.

And, of course, if I think you're wrong ... which you are ... then I'm going to think the paper is wrong also ... which it is.

 

[Neogaia777]

The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI on JSTOR

Colin J. Humphreys, The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI, Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 48, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1998), pp. 196-213

www.jstor.org

That's the link to the paper for anyone who is interested.

I'll try to get to the "meat" out of it later if I can without doing the entirety of what the paper gets into about the numbers a gross injustice, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Astrid]

I don't know squat about Ron Wyatt, but there's another guy that looked into all and published several films. His name is Timothy Mahoney, a film maker, not an academic type. His approach, though, was rather "forensic" in nature.

You can check his work out... Patterns of Evidence
I saw a couple of the films and was intrigued.

If you were to spend a bit of time and thought*
on it, and still cannot recognize fraud and conman,
we suggest that you be aware you are going to be
very vulnerable to scams.

*Thought like * How probable is this?"

In fiction there's the archetype "mad scientist"
who forges alone far far beyond all others.
There's Faustus, Captain Nemo of 20000 Leagues;
there's even Elvis as a young rebel chemist.


These are all fictional. Entertainment.

No actual person has achieved such breakthroughs.

The a bomb was a group effort based on knowledge decades in building.
Darwin assembled ideas that were in the air. Only just
barely got credit for first publication.

Our conman in q here claimed a long list of great
discoveries. Indiana Jones found a lost marble by comparison.
None of R Wyatts " discoveries" are accepted by any
actual archeologist. None of such as his gilded chariot
wheels were brought forth from the ocean.

But suit yourself, re believing such.

It only serves to discredit the believer, and all else he believes.
As with anyone who believes or tells utter drivel,
but hopes to be credible in all else he says.

 

[Ted-01]

If you were to spend a bit of time and thought*
on it, and still cannot recognize fraud and conman,
we suggest that you be aware you are going to be
very vulnerable to scams.

*Thought like * How probable is this?"

In fiction there's the archetype "mad scientist"
who forges alone far far beyond all others.
There's Faustus, Captain Nemo of 20000 Leagues;
there's even Elvis as a young rebel chemist.


These are all fictional. Entertainment.

No actual person has achieved such breakthroughs.

The a bomb was a group effort based on knowledge decades in building.
Darwin assembled ideas that were in the air. Only just
barely got credit for first publication.

Our conman in q here claimed a long list of great
discoveries. Indiana Jones found a lost marble by comparison.
None of R Wyatts " discoveries" are accepted by any
actual archeologist. None of such as his gilded chariot
wheels were brought forth from the ocean.

But suit yourself, re believing such.

It only serves to discredit the believer, and all else he believes.
As with anyone who believes or tells utter drivel,
but hopes to be credible in all else he says.

Thank you for allowing me the right to believe what I want,

The problems that I see in this are several.
I understand archetypes in literature... fiction, as in your examples. They were presented as fiction, whereas the Bible was not.
Also, in the category of works of fiction, I would place Darwin and most of his followers. The shifting sands of scientific thought, IMHO, is much different than actual, established scientific fact. Hypotheses and theory are not fact... I know that folks mill probably try to educate me on my misunderstanding... please don't bother. Science is fact... a scientist's proposals, no matter how in-depth their research, is not fact, ergo, not science. The "bomb" that you refer to, had different impact and damage, in my way of thinking. You probably think that it brought a light of rational thought into being... I think that it created a profound darkness into the world.

Anyway, it seems to me, that you and others are presupposing a "fact" that Scripture is largely allegorical in nature, and therefore a lot of Christian thoughts and beliefs are misguided when they (we, me) don't agree, often times. That's bias on y'all's part just as much as it might be on folks that you claim that to be true... misguided.

And by the way, I can only vaguely remember seeing something from R. Wyatt... long ago... I wasn't impressed.

 

[BCP1928]

Anyway, it seems to me, that you and others are presupposing a "fact" that Scripture is largely allegorical in nature, and therefore a lot of Christian thoughts and beliefs are misguided when they (we, me) don't agree, often times. That's bias on y'all's part just as much as it might be on folks that you claim that to be true... misguided.

It is not a "fact" that scripture is largely allegorical. It is just an opinion. In the same way , it is not a "fact" that scripture is literal history. That is is also just an opinion.

 

[sjastro]

The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI on JSTOR

Colin J. Humphreys, The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI, Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 48, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1998), pp. 196-213

www.jstor.org

That's the link to the paper for anyone who is interested.

I'll try to get to the "meat" out of it later if I can without doing the entirety of what the paper gets into about the numbers a gross injustice, etc.

God Bless.

Do you not see the problem here?
According to your link of the 20,000 men women and children only 5,000 were of men aged over 20.
Assuming the were no Amazon like warriors and only men did the fighting, a force of only around 5,000 fought its way out of Egypt.
When the Egyptians fought the Hittites at Kadesh north of Canaan it was estimated the number of Egyptians was up to 50,000 soldiers indicating the Egyptians could muster large military forces.
Do you think 5,000 slaves would have a chance against 50,000 soldiers?

There is another to problem to consider, the longevity of ancient Egypt was due to deserts on its east and west flanks providing an effective defensive barrier.
The first recorded successful military invasion of Egypt from the east was by the Assyrians in the 7th century BC.

Assyrian conquest of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(There was no Hyksos invasion of Egypt in the 17th century BC but a gradual and slow migration from the east into the Nile Delta from which the Hyksos eventually gained control of most of Egypt).

To survive in the Sinai desert for up to 40 years would require a supply line from Egypt, would you think the Egyptians would be have been so obliging?