Example: Affirming the Sabbath Commandment while denying its detail --

[Leaf473]

Mark 7 affirms the Word of God - no doubt.

But your affirmation of Eph 6:2 as THE TEN -- applicable to NT saints -- ends a lot of the suggestions you have made in the past against the TEN.

No, it doesn't. The principles of commandments can be applied without applying the letter.

How could we not have "noticed"???

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
Lets read Eph 6:1-2 "slowly"

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

So then literally,,, explicitly,,, "really".

If you understand that to mean that Paul is saying that we should follow that commandment to the letter

those who wish to "get confused" right at this point - are welcome to do so if they wish.

But for the rest of us... this is "the easy part".

To each his/her own.

- and by extension the 10, but only the 10, that's where we see it differently.

You may wish to have a non-Ten conversation about "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and how it fits with the discontinued animal sacrifices of Heb 10:4-12 --- If you find that sort of thing the least bit confusing - feel free to start a thread on it.

 

[BobRyan]

No, it doesn't. The principles of commandments can be applied without applying the letter.

Not according to Paul in Eph 6:1-2 when it comes to what even you call the unique situation of the TEN that Paul points to in Eph 6:2.

Which pretty much settles the case for the topic of this thread on the TEN.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, Ephesians 6:2 does. But that's different from saying that the 10 should be considered in isolation when it comes to whether one commandment should be edited any more - or any less - than any other commandment.

BobRyan said:
You may wish to have a non-Ten conversation about "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and how it fits with the discontinued animal sacrifices of Heb 10:4-12 --- If you find that sort of thing the least bit confusing - feel free to start a thread on it.

Seems like this is going in circles once you get to your "lets not talk about the Ten as our topic" suggestions.

 

[daq]

Please expound on that new way of understanding and walking.

The Master himself already did this in all his Testimony now found in the Gospel accounts. He is continually expounding the true meanings and understandings of the things spoken in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, even things kept secret or hidden from the foundation of the world. His Testimony is Spirit, (Jhn 6:63), and therefore it is the new Spirit of the new-renewed covenant, that same new Spirit even foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, which is the Spirit of the Father.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Those who believe the Testimony of the Meshiah, and consume his words, will be given more and more, and will begin to understand, and will be taught the truth by Elohim, and will likewise speak the Spirit of the Father who dwells within them. The Testimony of the Master is Spirit: even the Spirit of the Father.

Matthew 10:16-20 ASV
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you;
18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Testimony is Spirit: those who speak the Testimony of the Meshiah in uprightness and truth speak the Spirit of the Father.

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:
Lets read Eph 6:1-2 "slowly"

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

So then literally,,, explicitly,,, "really".

those who wish to "get confused" right at this point - are welcome to do so if they wish.

But for the rest of us... this is "the easy part".

To each his/her own.


You may wish to have a non-Ten conversation about "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and how it fits with the discontinued animal sacrifices of Heb 10:4-12 --- If you find that sort of thing the least bit confusing - feel free to start a thread on it.

No confusion on my part.

 

[Leaf473]

Not according to Paul in Eph 6:1-2 when it comes to what even you call the unique situation of the TEN that Paul points to in Eph 6:2.

Which pretty much settles the case for the topic of this thread on the TEN.

No, Paul doesn't talk about principles or letters in Ephesians 6, as far as I can see.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 6 - New American Standard Bible

Children and Parents - Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), SO THAT IT MAY TURN OUT WELL FOR YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Seems like this is going in circles once you get to your "lets not talk about the Ten as our topic" suggestions.

If you wanted to talk only about the 10 in isolation, why did you respond to my first post here, which references "any other commandment"?

 

[daq]

The Master himself already did this in all his Testimony now found in the Gospel accounts. He is continually expounding the true meanings and understandings of the things spoken in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, even things kept secret or hidden from the foundation of the world. His Testimony is Spirit, (Jhn 6:63), and therefore it is the new Spirit of the new-renewed covenant, that same new Spirit even foretold in Ezekiel the Prophet, which is the Spirit of the Father.

Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJV
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Those who believe the Testimony of the Meshiah, and consume his words, will be given more and more, and will begin to understand, and will be taught the truth by Elohim, and will likewise speak the Spirit of the Father who dwells within them. The Testimony of the Master is Spirit: even the Spirit of the Father.

Matthew 10:16-20 ASV
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you;
18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Testimony is Spirit: those who speak the Testimony of the Meshiah in uprightness and truth speak the Spirit of the Father.

Now put two and two together: if the Testimony of the Meshiah is the Spirit of the Father, then doing what he says and teaches is doing the will of the Father. Doing the will of the Father is doing the Torah, His instruction for His children, and the Spirit of the Father does not void out or abrogate His Torah-Instruction for His children.

The yoke of the Meshiah is the Spirit of the Father:

Luke 4:16-18 ASV
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, [Isaiah 61:1]

This quoted text from Yeshayah the Prophet contains the Tetragrammaton:

Isaiah 61:1a Ruach Adonai YHWH is upon me,

This is the yoke of which he speaks.

Matthew 11:27-30 ASV
27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is the liberty we have in Meshiah: for the Torah is spiritual, and is not according to the natural minded, outward, and physical minded interpretations of the Chief Priests, Elders, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and old way of the Sanhedrin, whose handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees were against us and were nailed to the stake. Such beggarly-element natural minded, outward, and physical interpretations cannot cleanse "the inside of the cup".

 

[Gary K]

No, I do not say that as if they were all written on stone by the finger of God.

I call the Commandments that Moses gave in the wilderness God's Commandments because that's what the Bible does.

Here's an example of something some of my Christian brothers and sisters would consider a ceremonial law, yet it is called "the law of the Lord". I take that to mean God's law.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 2:24 - New American Standard Bible

and to offer a sacrifice according to what has been stated in the Law of the Lord: “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG DOVES.”

www.biblegateway.com

Well that's one way to misquote me.

 

[daq]

daq - Thanks for catching that --

I have updated the link so it will start from the beginning -- my intent is that people watch the entire video if at all possible. Though it is about 20 min.

Thanks for letting us know that. I went back and watched the whole thing and am glad I did. One thing I would like to add about the point made by the preacher with the calculator: he uses the solar tropical year for his calculations, (without the approximate quarter day in decimals, but which still works out pretty much the same), and because he does so, the eleven years are also a reflection of the difference between the amount of days in the solar tropical year and the lunar year, which is eleven days, thus making the lunar year eleven days shorter than the solar tropical year.

Matthew 4:24 KJV
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, [G4583] and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G4583 σεληνιάζομαι seleniazomai (se-lee-niy-a'-zo-mai) v.
to be moon-struck, i.e. crazy.
[middle voice or passive from a presumed derivative of G4582]
KJV: be a lunatic
Root(s): G4582

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G4582 σελήνη selene (se-lee'-nee) n.
the moon.
[from selas “brilliancy” (probably akin to the alternate of G138, through the idea of attractiveness)]
KJV: moon

Just thought I would toss that into the mix, (so much for the lunisolar calendar, lol).

 

[Leaf473]

Well that's one way to misquote me.

I'm sad to hear you feel misquoted.

Here's the exchange

Because you say the 10 commandments and ceremonial laws are all God's laws as if they were all written on stone by the finger of God.

No, I do not say that as if they were all written on stone by the finger of God.

I call the Commandments that Moses gave in the wilderness God's Commandments because that's what the Bible does.

Here's an example of something some of my Christian brothers and sisters would consider a ceremonial law, yet it is called "the law of the Lord". I take that to mean God's law.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 2:24 - New American Standard Bible

and to offer a sacrifice according to what has been stated in the Law of the Lord: “A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG DOVES.”

www.biblegateway.com

Where do you believe the misquote is?

 

[Gary K]

I'm sad to hear you feel misquoted.

Here's the exchange



Where do you believe the misquote is?

Sorry about that. For some reason I misread you.

You do ignore all these laws. You don't follow them in the slightest and neither do I but because they came to an end with the death of Jesus on the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

If you wanted to talk only about the 10 in isolation, why did you respond to my first post here, which references "any other commandment"?

Because your first post said the Sabbath commandment should not be edited - as we find it in the TEN.

Your ability to get somewhere near the topic of the thread - should be affirmed whenever it is found.

Jesus condemns editing of God's Word in Mark 7 - as you seem to have asked that it be pointed out repeatedly.

And it is important to notice how Eph 6 zeros in on the TEN - and it is important to actually read the OP along with at least a few minutes of the video in that post.

 

[Leaf473]

Sorry about that. For some reason I misread you.

You do ignore all these laws. You don't follow them in the slightest and neither do I but because they came to an end with the death of Jesus on the cross.

I don't ignore any instructions from the law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. I keep the principles of all of them.

That's my response to the "editing" idea in the OP. All of God's Commandments are subject to the same degree of editing.

 

[Leaf473]

Because your first post said the Sabbath commandment should not be edited - as we find it in the TEN.

Well, not quite. Here's my first post on this thread

I don't know about a trend, but for myself, I don't think the Sabbath commandment should be edited any more - or any less - than any other commandment.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 27:34 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel on Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

So, it shouldn't be "edited any more - or any less".

If a person believes that some of God's Commandments can be edited, then to be consistent, all of God's Commandments are subject to the same degree of editing.

#############

Your ability to get somewhere near the topic of the thread - should be affirmed whenever it is found.

Jesus condemns editing of God's Word in Mark 7 - as you seem to have asked that it be pointed out repeatedly.

Okay, so zero editing of any of God's Commandments.

And it is important to notice how Eph 6 zeros in on the TEN - and it is important to actually read the OP along with at least a few minutes of the video in that post.

Yes, Ephesians 6 does talk about the 10 by implication. Are you seeing Ephesians 6 as talking about editing God's commandments?

 

[Gary K]

I don't ignore any instructions from the law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. I keep the principles of all of them.

That's my response to the "editing" idea in the OP. All of God's Commandments are subject to the same degree of editing.

You can keep the principle of a command by ignoring the principle of the command?

Exodus 20: 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

How do you keep the principles in the 4th commandment by not remembering to keep the seventh day holy?

 

[Leaf473]

You can keep the principle of a command by ignoring the principle of the command?

No. But you can keep the principle of a commandment while not following the letter of that commandment.

Exodus 20: 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

How do you keep the principles in the 4th commandment by not remembering to keep the seventh day holy?

Remembering to keep the seventh day holy by not working would be following the letter of the commandment.

One principle we can see is trusting in God's provision

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16:24 - New American Standard Bible

So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not stink nor was there a maggot in it.

www.biblegateway.com

But if that sounds like too much of a stretch, we can go with Jesus' version of the principle of the law - and the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

I'd say that's a kind of "editing". The Ten Commandments are edited the same way as the rest of the law.

 

[Gary K]

No. But you can keep the principle of a commandment while not following the letter of that commandment.



Remembering to keep the seventh day holy by not working would be following the letter of the commandment.

One principle we can see is trusting in God's provision

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16:24 - New American Standard Bible

So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not stink nor was there a maggot in it.

www.biblegateway.com

But if that sounds like too much of a stretch, we can go with Jesus' version of the principle of the law - and the prophets

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com

I'd say that's a kind of "editing". The Ten Commandments are edited the same way as the rest of the law.

You go ahead an edit. I will not. See which resurrection you wake up in. Unfortunately it will be the wrong one.

 

[Leaf473]

You go ahead an edit. I will not. See which resurrection you wake up in. Unfortunately it will be the wrong one.

Well, following Jesus's edit... That's what we want to do

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:12 - New American Standard Bible

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

www.biblegateway.com