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jgr

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I object to your false accusations; I do believe in the New Covenant, but it is not fully implemented yet.

Whose fault is that?

God's New Covenant is bilateral. God, in Christ, has fully implemented His side of the New Covenant. Why haven't you implemented your side?

It's fully implemented for me, BAB2, Chris, every believer on this forum, and every saint through the ages to this moment in time. Why isn't it implemented for you?
 
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keras

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Whose fault is that?

God's New Covenant is bilateral. God, in Christ, has fully implemented His side of the New Covenant. Why haven't you implemented your side?

It's fully implemented for me, BAB2, Chris, every believer on this forum, and every saint through the ages to this moment in time. Why isn't it implemented for you?
This is an unpleasant and baseless accusation, made without even properly speaking to me.
Just read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and it is obvious that we Christians have not yet experienced the full implementation of that Promise to His people. If it was, then we would no longer need to teach one another....
 
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keras

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A clear majority of OT instances of "berith" refer to a covenant between God and man.
This post is irrelevant and is what is termed in legalese; frivolous and vexatious. It proves nothing.

Sure; they are, but the one in Daniel 9:27 is not. That one is between the prince, who will be the leader of the One World Govt and the leaders of the new nation in all of the holy Land. It is for a fixed term, seven years and for the purpose of peaceful relations between them.
Therefore; it is a Peace Treaty.
 
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jgr

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This is an unpleasant and baseless accusation, made without even properly speaking to me.
Just read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and it is obvious that we Christians have not yet experienced the full implementation of that Promise to His people. If it was, then we would no longer need to teach one another....
What isn't implemented, and who hasn't implemented it?

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher (John 16:13).
 
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jgr

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This post is irrelevant and is what is termed in legalese; frivolous and vexatious. It proves nothing.

Sure; they are, but the one in Daniel 9:27 is not. That one is between the prince, who will be the leader of the One World Govt and the leaders of the new nation in all of the holy Land. It is for a fixed term, seven years and for the purpose of peaceful relations between them.
Therefore; it is a Peace Treaty.
Daniel 9:27 is a "berith". It is between the prince, who is Messiah, the only individual identified as a prince in the passage; and the many with whom His covenant is confirmed.

One world govt, holy land, et al are interpretation via imagination unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage.
 
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keras

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What isn't implemented, and who hasn't implemented it?

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher (John 16:13).
Belief that Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are totally fulfilled today, simply puts you in the realm of fantasyland.
We Christians do have the promise of the New Covenant, but it awaits the our gathering together, as per Ezekiel 37. Every faithful Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language, as seen by John in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9-14
Daniel 9:27 is a "berith". It is between the prince, who is Messiah, the only individual identified as a prince in the passage; and the many with whom His covenant is confirmed.
In Daniel 9:26-27, there is an anointed Prince, [Jesus] an invading prince, [Titus] and a prince who will make a Treaty, [the Anti-Christ] 3 different people. Conflating them is error.
One world govt, holy land, et al are interpretation via imagination unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage.
These things are prophesied elsewhere in our Bibles.
If you can't see them, then God's plans for His people are a closed book to you. Isaiah 29:9-12
 
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BABerean2

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Belief that Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are totally fulfilled today, simply puts you in the realm of fantasyland.

The "fantasy" is created by leaving Hebrews 8:6 out of Hebrews 8:6-13.
You are avoiding the word "now" in the verse.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


The Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13.

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jgr

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Belief that Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are totally fulfilled today, simply puts you in the realm of fantasyland.

Fulfillment is pure reality. Fantasy is reserved for futurists.

In Daniel 9:26-27, there is an anointed Prince, [Jesus] an invading prince, [Titus] and a prince who will make a Treaty, [the Anti-Christ] 3 different people. Conflating them is error.

An example of the aforestated fantasy. You're seeing in triplicate, and different images at that. Throw those prophetic spectacles in the round file.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The "fantasy" is created by leaving Hebrews 8:6 out of Hebrews 8:6-13.
You are avoiding the word "now" in the verse.

The Old Testament text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13.

.
I found the wording of the Hebrew and Greek rather interesting, so I attempted to do a translation of it some years ago. Maybe I need to revisit this thread:

New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold! days, ones coming a declaration of Yahweh
and I-cut/make<03772 karath> with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah a Covenant, New


03772 karath {kaw-rath'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1048; v
1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant

Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to-them He is saying
'behold! days are coming is saying Lord
and I shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah a Covenant, New'


4931. sunteleo soon-tel-eh'-o from 4862 and 5055; to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.

4862.
sun soon a primary preposition denoting union; with or together
5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056; to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.



.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Belief that Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 are totally fulfilled today, simply puts you in the realm of fantasyland.
We Christians do have the promise of the New Covenant, but it awaits the our gathering together, as per Ezekiel 37. Every faithful Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language, as seen by John in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9-14

In Daniel 9:26-27, there is an anointed Prince, [Jesus] an invading prince, [Titus] and a prince who will make a Treaty, [the Anti-Christ] 3 different people. Conflating them is error.

These things are prophesied elsewhere in our Bibles.
If you can't see them, then God's plans for His people are a closed book to you. Isaiah 29:9-12

Im sorry Keras. I cannot possibly support any of these statements. The book of Hebrews is foundational to New Testament atonement! Antichrist is not the subject of Daniel 9:27. An end-time "treaty" is not prophesied elsewhere in our Bibles.
 
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keras

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Im sorry Keras. I cannot possibly support any of these statements. The book of Hebrews is foundational to New Testament atonement! Antichrist is not the subject of Daniel 9:27. An end-time "treaty" is not prophesied elsewhere in our Bibles.
We shall see in due course, won't we.

Re a treaty; when do you think Isaiah 28:14-15 happened? From the context, it is still future.
 
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jgr

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We shall see in due course, won't we.

Re a treaty; when do you think Isaiah 28:14-15 happened? From the context, it is still future.

Isaiah 28
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

What is verse 16 there for?
It's there for verses 14 and 15.

Fulfilled in Messiah at His First Coming.

Peter confirms.

1 Peter 2
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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keras said:
We shall see in due course, won't we.

Re a treaty; when do you think Isaiah 28:14-15 happened? From the context, it is still future.
Isaiah 28
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

What is verse 16 there for?
It's there for verses 14 and 15.

Fulfilled in Messiah at His First Coming.

Peter confirms.

1 Peter 2
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Some interesting views from a Preterist perspective:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/tag/daniels-seventy-weeks/


M.F. Blume: What Do Preterists Believe About “The Prince” in the 70 Weeks of Daniel? (2001)

James Jordan: Bridging the Last Gap: Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Revisited (1992)

John Denton: Prophetic Day or Year – Jerusalem’s Destruction and the Seventy Weeks (1998)

M.F. Blume: What Do Preterists Believe About “The Prince” in the 70 Weeks of Daniel? (2001)

Todd Dennis: Were the Seventy Weeks Fulfilled in the First Century? (1995)
==================================
Messianic Jewish interpretation:

All Articles - Here a little, there a little - Index


Daniel - 70 Weeks Prophecy - Chart

DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS OF YEARS (490 YEARS)

Jewish Year* Roman Date 70 Weeks-490 Years (7 Weeks-49 Years) (62 Weeks-434 Years) (1 Week-7 Years) Explanatory Notes Herod's Reign Herod's Temple Yeshua's Life Tiberius' Reign

3297 465/464 BCE Artaxerxes' Ascension Year (Dec. 17, 465 BCE to Sep. 1, 464 BCE)
3298 464/463 BCE 1st Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3299 463/462 BCE 2nd Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3300 462/461 BCE 3rd Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3301 461/460 BCE 4th Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3302 460/459 BCE 5th Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3303 459/458 BCE 6th Regnal Year of Artaxerxes
3304 458/457 BCE 1 1 7th Regnal Year of Artaxerxes-Ezra 7:7-8 (commission to Ezra to rebuild Jerusalem)

3317 445/444 BCE 14 14 20th Regnal Year of Artaxerxes-Neh. 1:1; 2:1 (Nehemiah appointed governor of Judea)
3329 433/432 BCE 26 26 32nd Regnal Year of Artaxerxes (Nehemiah returns to Shushan-Neh. 5:14; 13:6)

3337 425/424 BCE 34 34 King Artaxerxes dies in his 40th Regnal Year; succeeded by sons Xerxes II, then Sogdianus
3338 424/423 BCE 35 35 Darius Nothus, son of Artaxerxes, becomes King of Persia

3351 411/410 BCE 48 48
3352 410/409 BCE 49 49 Nehemiah's governorship ends; Bagohi becomes governor of Judea

3724 38/37 BCE 421 372 Herod the Great captures Jerusalem from Antigonus and rules as governer over Judea 1

3741 21/20 BCE 438 389 Herod starts expansion of second Temple (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 15.11.1) 18 Begins

3757 5/4 BCE 454 405 Yeshua born during Sukkot; Herod dies about six months later, just before Passover (Josephus, Ant., 17.8.1; Wars of the Jews, 1.33.8) 34 16 Born
3761 1 BCE
/1 CE 458 409 20 4

3769 8/9 CE 466 417 Yeshua listens to teachers in Temple during Passover (Luke 2:41-51) 28 12

3773 12/13 CE 470 421 Tiberius begins his co-rule with Augustus Caesar on October 23, 12 CE 32 16 1
3787 26/27 CE 484 1 46 years since Temple renovation began (John 2:20); Yeshua "about 30 years of age" (Luke 3:23); 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1) 46 30 15

3790 29/30 CE 487 1/2 Yeshua died on Wednesday, 14 Nisan (April 3, 30 CE), at the exact time Passover lambs were being slain in the Temple (Josephus, War, 6.9.3) 33

Herod's Temple destroyed on 9 Av (August 4, 70 CE on the Julian calendar) by the Romans. The Babylonian Talmud records that for 40 years before the Temple was destroyed, the following things happened: The lots for the Yom Kippur goats ceased to be supernaturally determined; the crimson thread tied to the Azazel goat's horn (which had before supernaturally changed to white to show God's forgiveness) remained red; the western candle in the menorah in the Temple sanctuary would not burn continually; and the doors of the Temple would open by themselves (Yoma 39:b).
====================================================
Daniel's 70 Weeks - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy


DANIEL'S 70 WEEKS
Many Christians expect an end-time scenario that goes something like this: The Church will be raptured to heaven before the start of the "great tribulation." Then the Antichrist will arise and convince the Jews that he is actually the prophesied Messiah. The Antichrist will make a seven-year peace treaty with the Jews and will allow the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. But midway through that treaty, the Antichrist will break his covenant. He will enter the restored Temple and proclaim himself to be God. This event will start the 3½-year reign of terror known as the "great tribulation." At the end of this time period, Christ will return from heaven with the Church and defeat the Antichrist in the Battle of Armageddon.

The scenario above is built around just a few prophetic Scriptures. The primary one is the "70 weeks" prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27. This is one of the most misunderstood and misused prophecies in the Bible. This prophecy is the primary foundation used by most pre-tribulation rapturists to support that particular doctrine. But does this passage really support a pre-tribulation rapture? We'll examine the 9th chapter of Daniel in detail to make that determination................

CONCLUSION
As we can see from an in-depth look at the prophecy of the 70 weeks, it has nothing to say directly about the Antichrist. The primary focus of the prophecy was to tell Daniel (and through him, us) WHEN the prophesied Messiah would appear in Israel. It also foretold the Jews' overall rejection of Yeshua as that Messiah, and the consequences to Israel of that rejection...................
 
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Ronald

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Those of us who treat Daniel’s 70th week as consecutive (ie. not separated from the 69 preceding weeks), are sometimes asked, “well, when was it?” Here is the short answer:


first day of seventieth week – 1st Nisan (27th March) AD 27

last day of seventieth week – 29th Adar (8th March) AD 34


Here are the dates in diagrammatic form, showing key chronological markers. I’ll get back soon to expand on this. We can discuss the significance of the last half of the ‘week’ too if you like.


.
View attachment 243205
Thanks for this, I always thought of the 70 weeks as only pointing to Christ's First Coming. And so in Daniel 9:24-27 Jesus accomplished these things:
*Finished transgression and put an end to sin - He did. (For those who put their faith in Him)
*To atone for iniquity - He did with His death.
*To bring in everlasting righteousness - He did.
*To seal both vision and prophet - He chose the disciples and they completed the books.
*To anoint the Most Holy Place - He did, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
*After the 7 +62 weeks, Jesus, the prince of peace is anointed.
*Jesus is cut off after the 69th week, which means in the 70th.
Note: "AND the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and sanctuary", is not a reference to Jesus, the prince in the previous verse. Verse 26 alludes to a future time (70 AD and beyond, war and desolation)
*Jesus made a covenant and "in the middle of that week", put and end to sacrifice - He did.
So April 7, 30 AD or April 3, 33AD are dates recognized as His crucifixion. April 7, 30 AD would fall in the middle of your 70th week calculation.
Note: "and by the wing (pinnacle or overspreading) of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one."
Abominations leading to not only Jerusalem being destroyed but (the Jews) becoming scattered throughout world and themselves desolate (not having God) until the consummation (the Holy Spirit) is poured out on the desolate. (Rom. 11 states Israel will be saved in the end times).
 
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Christian Gedge

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Yes, I agree absolutely with the points you have listed. :amen:

Ronald said:
So April 7, 30 AD or April 3, 33AD are dates recognized as His crucifixion. April 7, 30 AD would fall in the middle of your 70th week calculation.

They are the only 2 possible dates for Passover to have occurred at the right time. Yes, I believe 7th April, AD 30 is the correct choice - the date of Jesus' death.
 
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ebedmelech

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So, what does St. John have to offer the discussion concerning Daniel’s 70th week? More than realized, I would suggest. His timelines surrounding Jesus ministry have appeared to conflict with the synoptic gospels, but actually they tie in like a jigsaw. Take for example Jesus’ baptism: Matthew, Mark, and Luke have it late in AD 26 after which he spent time in the wilderness. St. John has it shortly before Passover early AD 27 (John 2:13) On that occasion John the Baptist called out over Jesus, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)

Why the different details? Answer. John’s account was when Jesus returned from his wilderness experience, passing by the site of his baptism several months earlier.

What did J the B. mean by his announcement? Answer. He was quoting Daniel’s “Seventy weeks are determined … to make an end of sins!” (Dan. 9:24)

When did J the B. make this awesome proclamation? Answer. The first day of seventieth week! 1st Nisan (27th March) AD 27​
More prominent is this was when Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit descending upon him in the form of a dove! Peter makes this point while preaching the gospel to Cornelius at Acts 10:38.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Good one! :oldthumbsup:

Your connection between Jesus' anointing and the outpouring in Cornelius' house is no coincidence. However, his baptism never initiated the 70th week: His baptism happened late in the 69th week. (possibly Day of Atonement - just my theory)

A complication with counting 'weeks' is how during the inter-testament era the Hebrew New Year was switched from Nisan to Tishri, but the count as far as God was concerned, continued as He had given it to Moses. (Nisan)

When we realize this, the first day of the 70th week coincides with the start of his ministry, 1st Nisan AD 27.
 
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