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Ex-believers-What once convinced you of God's existence?
- Thread starter madaz
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- Oct 17, 2009
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My information comes from the bible about who God is. I don't read what it says and then make up my own idea about who He is. That would mean disregarding the facts and then making up my own "facts". If I do that, then I'd be making God out to be something other than who He says He is.
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- Oct 17, 2009
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Why? So you can try to discredit my opinions? That's the only reason you've ever asked me for my opinions in the past.
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
Well if you expressly limit metaphysics to naturalistic ones, you'll only ever "observe" natural things, whether they are in fact simply natural or nor. Its like the eskimos who have 100 names for snow, or whatever. Someone else will just have one name, and their perceptions and inferences will be limited thereby.
Look you "define" things as natural, and then your "observing nature, as defined" proves the point they are natural, in the sense of you conclude "well, nature is all there is, because thats what we observe". Seems circular to me. Like naming someone Billy, and then saying "the birth cirtificate shows that that was his only possible name".
maybe?
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GrowingSmaller
Muslm Humanist
Point. People bring with them their own conceptions to every situation. Manyobservers means many experiences, every forensic scientist knows that, maybe its true of theology too?
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Still doesn't explain why gods need special rules just for them to keep them from falling into the "imaginary" category.
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- Oct 17, 2009
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Maybe because what you call imaginary is actually real but beyond your physical perceptions. That falls into the realm of supernatural.
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That's where we have to think beyond logic. I hope you're a fan of Star Trek. I found part of a transcript that kind of relates to what I'm talking about. It's from the first movie where a machine that had come to life was on a mission to learn everything that could be learned, but was limited to learning only what was physical and provable.
[FONT="]SPOCK: No, Captain, not for us, ...for V'Ger. ...I weep for V'Ger, as I would for a brother. As I was when I came aboard, so is V'Ger now, empty, incomplete, ...searching. Logic and knowledge are not enough.
McCOY: Spock, are you saying that you've found, what you needed, but V'Ger hasn't?
DECKER: What would V'Ger need to fulfil itself?
SPOCK: Each of us, at some time in our life, turns to someone, a father, a brother, a god and asks 'Why am I here?' 'What was I meant to be?' V'Ger hopes to touch its Creator to find its answers.
KIRK: 'Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?'[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]KIRK: Enterprise, stand by. The antenna leads are melted away.
SPOCK: Yes Captain, just now. By V'Ger itself.
KIRK: Why?
SPOCK: To prevent reception.
KIRK: Of course.
DECKER: To bring the Creator here, to finish transmitting the code in person, ...to touch the Creator.
McCOY: To capture God! V'Ger's going to be in for one hell of a disappointment.
SPOCK: Perhaps not. ...Captain, ...V'Ger must evolve. Its knowledge has reached the limits of this universe and it must evolve. What it requires of its God, Doctor is the answer to its question, 'Is there nothing more?
McCOY: What more is there than the universe, Spock?
DECKER: Other, dimensions, higher levels of beings.
SPOCK: The existence of which cannot be proved logically, therefore V'Ger is incapable of believing in them.
KIRK: What V'Ger needs in order to evolve is a human quality. Our capacity to leap beyond logic.
DECKER: And joining with its Creator might accomplish that.[/FONT]
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S
Sectio Aurea
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So... (in a nut shell) joining a robot with its creator might accomplish a human quality of leaping beyond logic?
Assuming I am understanding you correctly, are you referring to imagination?
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- Mar 14, 2012
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Unless I'm missing something, there is absolutely no reason to presume deities are required for this world to exist.
From my perspective, presuming the non existence of deities, is no where near as foolish, as presuming the existence of deities.
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Maybe. Or maybe not. Since they're postulated to be beyond anyone's perceptions, the whole line of thought is self-defeating. Either you admit that we stick with what we can perceive or the sky's the limit on what we can make up. But no fair applying that "logic" only to certain pet ideas and ignoring it for everything else we can possibly imagine (not that our imaginations would have to be a limit on what we could justify using this approach).
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