Ex-believers-What once convinced you of God's existence?

[madaz]

Even though I was raised strictly Catholic, I doubt that I ever was convinced of God´s existence. As a child, you naturally do what everyone around you does, without critical questioning. Just like, say, you eat meat because that´s what´s on the table every day - and not until you become a teenager you even consider the possibility of being a vegetarian.

So, sorry, I don´t have a story for you.

Thanks for sharing anyway quatona.

 

[juvenissun]

But most of the responses are from people who did not have any remarkable experience's while they were believers.

They were believers simply because they trusted what other people told them.

That is my point. So you do not use "convinced" in the question of your OP. They might be convinced by people, but certainly not by God.

 

[CabVet]

That is my point. So you do not use "convinced" in the question of your OP. They might be convinced by people, but certainly not by God.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

 

[juvenissun]

No true Scotsman fallacy.

Conjunction fallacy.

 

[madaz]

Yesterday afternoon I took my dog (by car) to a an off leash park some 10 km's distance from home. We enjoyed an hour of exercise, then just as I was about to leave the park, my dog got into a minor altercation with another dog. The owner of the other dog apologised to me and we had some small chit chat before she got in to her car and parted ways.

I left some 5 minutes later and when I was almost home I noticed her (the other dog owner) parked next to me at the traffic lights. I waved and wondered how remarkable it was that she happened to travel all the way back to my neighborhood.

She got ahead of me at the traffic lights then turned into my street then into the driveway two houses down from my house.

What are the chances of that??

If something like this happened while I was still a believer, I would think such a co-incidence was some form of divine intervention.

 

[quatona]

Yesterday afternoon I took my dog (by car) to a an off leash park some 10 km's distance from home. We enjoyed an hour of exercise, then just as I was about to leave the park, my dog got into a minor altercation with another dog. The owner of the other dog apologised to me and we had some small chit chat before she got in to her car and parted ways.

I left some 5 minutes later and when I was almost home I noticed her (the other dog owner) parked next to me at the traffic lights. I waved and wondered how remarkable it was that she happened to travel all the way back to my neighborhood.

She got ahead of me at the traffic lights then turned into my street then into the driveway two houses down from my house.

What are the chances of that??

If something like this happened while I was still a believer, I would think such a co-incidence was some form of divine intervention.

I do understand that we have a tendency to ascribe significance to coincidences that affect us (even though it´s not a rational thing to do).
I do not quite seem to understand, though, how and why a low chance coincidence would point to a God, of all. I have a hard time believing that such events would convince someone of God´s existence (while they certainly may confirm someone´s already existing beliefs).

 

[dac2015]

What if you've been healed of something? FYI I'm still a believer. I have been healed before. And believe me I've had the questions to make sure it was real and honestly tried to find things to make sure it wasn't.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I do understand that we have a tendency to ascribe significance to coincidences that affect us (even though it´s not a rational thing to do).
I do not quite seem to understand, though, how and why a low chance coincidence would point to a God, of all. I have a hard time believing that such events would convince someone of God´s existence (while they certainly may confirm someone´s already existing beliefs).

I'm not sure that a low-chance coincidence would point to the Christian God specifically, but it may point to some sort of god-concept or "intelligence" that is actively engaging and affecting the world to make certain events more probable than they should be.

Think about rolling a die. If you get 50 sixes in a row, you might think something is funny with the die. It's natural, given the coincidence, to assume some sort of intelligent agent is messing with the "natural" probability distribution. In this case, its probably the maker of the die who built it to be weighted to land on 6.

Now, if, instead of a die, you have an example that is much more complex such that a human intelligence couldn't possibly engineer the coincidence, then maybe there is some other intelligence out there messing with the probability distribution of events. As in madaz's example, the chances that two people from the same street would go to the same park across town at the same time seems quite low. If you built in some simplifying assumptions, you could nail down a rough estimate of the probability but I don't know if my probability skills can actually do the computation.

Could be aliens…I dunno.

 

[quatona]

I'm not sure that a low-chance coincidence would point to the Christian God specifically, but it may point to some sort of god-concept or "intelligence" that is actively engaging and affecting the world to make certain events more probable than they should be.

Low-chance coincidences happen all the time. A coincidence is basically nothing but a way of looking at things.
Each week a person wins the lottery.
The chance that this particular raindrop hit my nose at this very point in time was probably one in billions of trilliards.

You need to first give significance to the link between two (or more) events to even think of it as a "coincidence".

Think about rolling a die. If you get 50 sixes in a row, you might think something is funny with the die. It's natural, given the coincidence, to assume some sort of intelligent agent is messing with the "natural" probability distribution. In this case, its probably the maker of the die who built it to be weighted to land on 6.

Firstly, "it´s natural" doesn´t mean "it´s reasonable".
Secondly, I already conceded that humans have a tendency to look for significance.
Thirdly, I will also concede that humans have a tendency to assume intention behind a coincidence that strikes them as significant. That doesn´t mean it´s necessarily rational.
Fourthly, there is a difference between assuming intention on part of one of the persons involved and spontaneously inventing a particular entity that you can ascribe the intention to. (Remember, I explicitly stated that I wasn´t talking about believers confirming their already existing beliefs, but about "convincing non-believers").

Now, if, instead of a die, you have an example that is much more complex such that a human intelligence couldn't possibly engineer the coincidence, then maybe there is some other intelligence out there messing with the probability distribution of events.

See my examples above. Highly unlikely coincidences happen so often that we don´t even think of them as "coincidences". Actually, the more complex a system is the more low probability coincidences will happen.

As in madaz's example, the chances that two people from the same street would go to the same park across town at the same time seems quite low.

1. It isn´t any lower than with two particular persons from different streets.
2. Come to think of it (and seeing that we are talking about a well known local public recreational), the chance isn´t even that low. If you go to a public place in your area the chance to meet someone from your street is actually quite high. Higher than to meet, say, a particular person from the other end of the world, anyway.

If you built in some simplifying assumptions, you could nail down a rough estimate of the probability but I don't know if my probability skills can actually do the computation.

I´m not an expert in that field, either. However, it´s safe to say that meeting a person from your street at a public recreational area in your neck of the woods is doesn´t have a lower probability than meeting someone there whom we have randomly picked from a list of the inhabitants of the world. Thus, what actually strikes us as significant isn´t the low probability.

Could be aliens…I dunno.

Personally, if I were to look not only for significance but also for an intentional force, I would first go with the persons involved. Before I would assume Gods, fairies, aliens I certainly would consider the possibility that the woman is following me around, for whatever reason.

On another note, even if I came to the point of assuming supernatural or other exceptional intentions, I would need them to make some sense. At this point, I have no idea what God´s purpose might possibly be in having two people from the same street meet at a recreational area. An attempt at recruiting believers?

 

[poolerboy0077]

To be honest, when I was a believer in my younger years I never really pondered what coniced me or didn't convince me of God's existence. I just went about my life a though he existed and it never really occurred to me that it could be possible he didn't exist. It wasn't until someone told me that my grandpa, who married a Catholic woman, was actually an atheist that it dawned on me that that could be a possibility to entertain. It was years later, though, when I finally gave up my supernatural beliefs.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Low-chance coincidences happen all the time. A coincidence is basically nothing but a way of looking at things.
Each week a person wins the lottery.
The chance that this particular raindrop hit my nose at this very point in time was probably one in billions of trilliards.

You need to first give significance to the link between two (or more) events to even think of it as a "coincidence".

There's a great book out there called "The Improbability Principle" by David Hand. If you haven't read it, I think you would like it as it details things like this by using tons of really awesome examples.

The definition of coincidence is "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection." The key word here is "remarkable". A coincidence is, by definition, something that we see as surprising or unlikely.

See my examples above. Highly unlikely coincidences happen so often that we don´t even think of them as "coincidences".

Then they aren't coincidences…by definition.

2. Come to think of it (and seeing that we are talking about a well known local public recreational), the chance isn´t even that low. If you go to a public place in your area the chance to meet someone from your street is actually quite high. Higher than to meet, say, a particular person from the other end of the world, anyway.

I believe he said he was at a park across town. Not sure how big the city/town he lives in is.

Personally, if I were to look not only for significance but also for an intentional force, I would first go with the persons involved. Before I would assume Gods, fairies, aliens I certainly would consider the possibility that the woman is following me around, for whatever reason.

On another note, even if I came to the point of assuming supernatural or other exceptional intentions, I would need them to make some sense. At this point, I have no idea what God´s purpose might possibly be in having two people from the same street meet at a recreational area. An attempt at recruiting believers?

 

[madaz]

To be honest, when I was a believer in my younger years I never really pondered what coniced me or didn't convince me of God's existence. I just went about my life a though he existed and it never really occurred to me that it could be possible he didn't exist. It wasn't until someone told me that my grandpa, who married a Catholic woman, was actually an atheist that it dawned on me that that could be a possibility to entertain. It was years later, though, when I finally gave up my supernatural beliefs.

Thanks for sharing poolerboy, I was wondering if (while you were a believer) you ever challenged God to answer a prayer or show a sign?

 

[quatona]

There's a great book out there called "The Improbability Principle" by David Hand. If you haven't read it, I think you would like it as it details things like this by using tons of really awesome examples.

The definition of coincidence is "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection." The key word here is "remarkable". A coincidence is, by definition, something that we see as surprising or unlikely.

Now, that´s a bit different than the definitions I have found, but - apart from semantics - it supports my points quite fine.
(I like this definition: unless we even connect two events in our minds as related - i.e. ascribe significance to the collection - we won´t even call it "coincidence". We wouldn´t even take notice. That´s pretty much what I meant to explain in my previous post.)

​

Then they aren't coincidences…by definition.

Applying Hand´s definition doesn´t take away from my point, though: I.e. that the crucial part is the fact that we ascribe significance to a collection of events, in the first place - without necessarily having a good reason to.

​

I believe he said he was at a park across town. Not sure how big the city/town he lives in is.

Since pretty much everyone occasionally takes a ride across town (no matter how big the town is), this is irrelevant to the point I was trying to get across. "Across town" (even though it may be a huge town) is still comparably close.

Seeing your response (which doesn´t address the important points), I am not quite sure I have communicated my points clearly. Sorry.

 

[Emmy]

Dear madaz. When I was young, 18 years old, I was on a train to a place in Heidelberg. It was at the end of the war, 1945, and the train stopped at the near end of our destination, Mainz in Germany. Our papers were examined and I was kept in a room at the place where the train was stopped. After a while, about 20 Minutes, one of the men who worked at the station, told me through the open window: " The French soldiers here are up to something with you, let me help you get on this Good`s Train, which is going into Mainz.
It was already late at night and I was afraid of being on my own in the dark, with the French soldiers still outside. I went into the Good`s Train, and arrived after about ten minutes the station of Mainz. Here I get off and went into the station of Mainz. There were not many people about, as was getting late and darker. Not knowing what to do, I stopped outside the entrance to the station and prayed to God, I was in great fear. Then I saw a brightly lit up streetcar opposite and I ran into it, not knowing what else to do. While I was sitting there an old gentleman sat beside me, and asked what is the matter, dear, can I help you? Strangely I felt quite safe with this man, and told him why I was in Mainz, and needed to go to Mannheim. This gentleman told me that his wife is in hospital and he was going to stay with her all night, and I could stay at their home, which was empty. I felt no fear whatsoever, and got off the streetcar and went with him. From then on I do not remember a thing,
except I woke up in the morning in the bombed out houses and streets, and found my way to the street. I was by a bridge where two soldiers were stationed to watch the bridge. The nearest was a French soldier, and on the on the other side was an American soldier. Before the French soldier could talk to me, the American soldier said to me: " Hi Babe." I went to him and told him in English
( which I had learned in school) that I was stranded and had to go to Heidelberg, in the American Zone. He told me where to get the train and I thanked and walked away to the station. I was now in the American Zone and was safe. I told my Mother about these encounters, and she was sure the old gentleman on the streetcar was an Angel send by God. I have never forgotten that time, and as I got older, I KNEW that I had been saved by God. Nothing was stolen from me, I still had my suitcase and my money. I believe now with heart, soul, and mind, that I was saved by an Angel send by God. Nothing will ever make me doubt the existence of God our Heavenly Father. I say this with love, madaz. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[quatona]

Hey Emmi, sister in Christ!!!
Haven´t seen you in...what?...must be decades or something!

 

[madaz]

Hi Emmy, thank you for sharing your beautiful story.

Are there any ex-believers here with similar stories?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Same as everyone else: Someone told me to. In my case, as for nearly everyone, it was my parents.

Luckily, I read the entire bible, and realized 1. I wanted no part of that God, and 2. it made no sense whatsoever.

 

[BL2KTN]

To answer the original poster: realizing that God and Yahweh were not necessarily the same thing was a big first step.

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't see why you say healings are parlor tricks. I doubt someone with some disease or who is dying would consider them parlor tricks. God healing people would be a good and worthwhile thing.

Healings, if they did happen often, might be a good reason to believe in God. But, as with all such things, God is hidden to such an extent that it seems like he's not there.

That's my opinion anyway.

The ones done on a stage in very theatrical ways are easy to see as parlor tricks. But a missionary in a foreign country ministering to the sick and healing them away from an audience is something different.

 

[BL2KTN]

The ones done on a stage in very theatrical ways are easy to see as parlor tricks. But a missionary in a foreign country ministering to the sick and healing them away from an audience is something different.

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