Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

[AV1611VET]

Perhaps you can tell me how the people of this tribe are supposed to be Christians when there has been no one at all to tell them of Christianity?

I thought I answered that already.

Do you think God is up there saying, "Yes, expecting them to believe something they have never heard of is a perfectly reasonable thing to do."

The plan of salvation is in the stars.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Lets say evidence is seen in the form of creation, consciousness and the results of a personal relationship with God - Holy Spirit.
What say you?

I say: why would we say that? Why are those things evidence for a god and not for something else? I don't see how any of these would be evidence of any god existing. So you're going to have to explain that.

ps: "creation" is a loaded term. Worse, it is actually loaded with the very claims you are asked to present evidence for. So I just took it to mean "the universe and whatever it contains" - without any hidden assumptions concerning its origins.

Well lucky for us we are not.

Sure. But the subject is not us. The subject is a god.

So your position is not systematic or methodical.

My position is: why would I, or how could I, believe something exists while that something isn't properly defined (as in: what exactly am I supposed to believe eixsts???) and which can't be distinguished from non-existant things?

The answer is that I wouldn't and couldn't.
If I am not provided with rational and sufficient reason to accept something as true, I won't be accepting it as true..........

You do not know what evidence to look for in relation to the existance of God.

Just like you don't know what evidence to look for in relation to the existance of 'brukabollybooboo'.

Is this lack going to give a false reading?

No. It's going to make my position rational.
When there is no valid reason to accept something as true, then nevertheless accepting it as true anyway, is irrational.

Well i just went on the internet and looked up that word. There is no mention of it and it appears you just made up the word.
Anyways lets test it. Who or what is brukabollybooboo?

An undetectable extra-dimensional alien that entered our dimension and had a chat with me in my living room while nobody else was around to witness it. Sadly when it entered our dimension, it triggerd an EM pulse, totally destroying my phones and stuff, so I couldn't take a picture either. Do you believe it exists? Why not (assuming you don't)?

You mean i made up the word God on the spot?

I mean that your god is, in terms of verifiability, as ill-defined as 'brukabollybooboo'.

Go for it, i think we should try this out?

We're already trying it out. I'm asking you to give me a definition of your god that allows me to verify if this entity exists or not. Your first attempt was unsuccesful - or at least, seriously lacking and/or incomplete.

 

[Aman777]

So let's say there's some uncontacted tribe deep in the Amazon rainforest. The chief dies, and God sends him to hell because he never accepted Jesus? "But how could you punish me for not believing something when there was no way I could have possibly known about it?" he says.

What would God's answer be?

1. God does not send anyone to hell. They freely choose hell for themselves.
2. In the case you posted, the chief would be judged by Jesus, and not me.
3. God is the Spirit of Love and makes His own decisions. IF I judged the chief, it wouldn't do any good and would have no effect, so I leave Judgment to Jesus. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

I'm all through My creation (Psalm 19)."

Can't find the quote. Amen?

 

[AV1611VET]

Can't find the quote. Amen?

I didn't mean that in a pantheistic way.

I mean all of creation speaks of Him.

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey you

Please excuse me, I addressed your points and you ask me about my grammar.

No I didn't.

I said that you decided to criticise the way I phrased the analogy rather than actually address what the analogy was about.

I give you plenty of opportunity to modfify or redact your analogy because of player 1. You chose to ignore it and used that marvellous word quibble.

You don't get it. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's a damned analogy, and yet you act as if it must be a perfect imitation.

Hence, you could not defend your analogy, it is flawed and you will not accept it.

You don't get that analogies aren't meant to be perfect imitations, so your criticism that it isn't a perfect imitation is irrelevant.

I did not miss the point. You were trying suggest that the analogy was an analogy for the Bible. Yet player 1 is a catalyst. All that could happen is player 3 is wrong about the logistics.

Yes, player 1 represents the catalyst. Player 1 is a stand-in for whatever the real catalyst was. It does not mean that player 1 has to represent some actual intelligent entity.

Player 1 is a random set of events. Player 2 is richard dawkins and Player 3 is kylie.

Hahahahahahahahaha

No i do not.

Do you think that is the case?

Cheers

Yeah, it was AV who said that, not you.

 

[Kylie]

I thought I answered that already.

Ah yes, creation is meant to be all that is needed.

Very well. Explain to me how a tribe that has had no outside contact can be aware of the Christian faith specifically.

The plan of salvation is in the stars.

Meaningless.

 

[Kylie]

1. God does not send anyone to hell. They freely choose hell for themselves.

So when I die and appear before God, I get to choose?

2. In the case you posted, the chief would be judged by Jesus, and not me.

Why Jesus and not God?

3. God is the Spirit of Love and makes His own decisions. IF I judged the chief, it wouldn't do any good and would have no effect, so I leave Judgment to Jesus. Amen?

I'm not asking you to judge the chief. I'm asking what you think God's judgement would be.

 

[the iconoclast]

No I didn't.

I said that you decided to criticise the way I phrased the analogy rather than actually address what the analogy was about.

Hey hey kylie

Post 255
Kylie - "Is English your first language? I ask because some aspects of your sentence construction suggest that it is not."

What u think?

You don't get it. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's a damned analogy, and yet you act as if it must be a perfect imitation.

Why do you think it is not perfect or complete?

What would make it complete?

You don't get that analogies aren't meant to be perfect imitations, so your criticism that it isn't a perfect imitation is irrelevant.

Kylie you have just busted your own analogy and admitted it is flawed.

Yes, player 1 represents the catalyst. Player 1 is a stand-in for whatever the real catalyst was. It does not mean that player 1 has to represent some actual intelligent entity.

So now you admit player 1 is a catalyst. A person or thing that precipitates an event.

Interesting. What thing or person could player 1 be if not God?

Hahahahahahahahaha

It was a good one right. So player 1 is not random or meaningless set of events. Player 1 is a thing or person.

Yeah, it was AV who said that, not you.

I love av, he is cool. I hope he and i can be friends.

Cheers you

 

[the iconoclast]

I say: why would we say that?

Hey hey dogmahunter

Ok, i said it.

Why are those things evidence for a god and not for something else?

You have intrigued me. What something else?

I don't see how any of these would be evidence of any god existing. So you're going to have to explain that.

Job 38:4-7
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions?Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring lineacross it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Cor 1:22-23
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

God is the creator and His creation is evidence. It seems the notion of who we are, where we are going and where we come from is apart of our inquisitive nature.

The question of Where we come from and how we got here is the reason why your here. You believe in the thoughts of men who are extremely prone to error judged by men who are extremely prone to error.

The chances are you believe something that is extremely likely to be erroneous?

Lets ponder a giraffe.
What came first, The long neck, The huge - heart which pumps kpa to the top. Or the flaps in the spine, which cause the blood to not rush to the top?

ps: "creation" is a loaded term. Worse, it is actually loaded with the very claims you are asked to present evidence for.

What do you mean by 'loaded term' and how is creation an example?

Loaded words and phrases have significant emotional implications and involve strongly positive or negative reactions beyond their literal meaning.

So I just took it to mean "the universe and whatever it contains" - without any hidden assumpti

Yep.

Sure. But the subject is not us. The subject is a god

In particular the Christian God, His Son our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and God the Spirit.

My position is: why would I, or how could I, believe something exists while that something isn't properly defined (as in: what exactly am I supposed to believe eixsts???)

Well lets get into my beloved friend.

You would like me to state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of the Christian God. To give you the meaning of the Christian God (a word or phrase), especially in a dictionary.

You want me to establish the character or essence of the Christian God.

The nature of the Christian God and the meaning of the word for the Christian God ie God with a capital G.

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

1 John 4:16
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God (eg. in Christianity and other monotheistic religions the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.)

Scope of God ie the purpose, end, or intention.

John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

We are born into sin and need to be reconciled to God. Ot had sacrifices, nt - Jesus is the last and only atonement for sins.

Gods purpose is reconciliation, redemption and salvation. wanna know more ask?

The Westminster Shorter Catechism's definition of God is merely an enumeration of his attributes: "God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth

That is His character. God is light, love and the truth. no longer will you have to search, it is time for you to come to a stop.

We want you

and which can't be distinguished from non-existant things?

What u think now?

The answer is that I wouldn't and couldn't.

Now we have given identity and established a decription for the Christian God what say you now?

If I am not provided with rational and sufficient reason to accept something as true, I won't be accepting it as true..........

Based on or in accordance with reason or logic. To persuade you with a rational argument and reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

Validity, the quality of being logically or factually sound; soundness or cogency.

How about this. The earth has a set of things - all lifeform and matter - which work together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.

I declare that this system and organization cannot be possible without a catalyst. What say u?

You know what you wont accept, why dont you know what you would accept?

Just like you don't know what evidence to look for in relation to the existance of 'brukabollybooboo'.

This is fun. What evidence should i look for?

No. It's going to make my position rational.

When there is no valid reason to accept something as true, then nevertheless accepting it as true anyway, is irrational

Well i guess your death is not absolutely certain so you will live for ever, your afterlife is of no concern. You do not have a soul and their is no meaning to your life.

Is that rational?

An undetectable extra-dimensional alien that entered our dimension and had a chat with me in my living room while nobody else was around to witness it.

If it is undetectable (.eg unable to be discovered or to identify the presence or existence of.

How did you chat with it? How do you know it is an alien? How do you know what you were talking to?

Sadly when it entered our dimension, it triggerd an EM pulse, totally destroying my phones and stuff, so I couldn't take a picture either.

Sorry to hear that. Did this really happen to you?

Do you believe it exists? Why not (assuming you don't)?

Why would I, or how could I, believe something exists while that something isn't properly defined?

Sound familiar

Ill let you know once it is properly defined.

I mean that your god is, in terms of verifiability, as ill-defined as 'brukabollybooboo'

Lets see how it goes. Our salvation God versus this undetectable alien you somehow detected.

We're already trying it out. I'm asking you to give me a definition of your god that allows me to verify if this entity exists or not. Your first attempt was unsuccesful - or at least, seriously lacking and/or incomplete.

Please excuse my substandard performance. Have you ever tried to reach out to God?

Cheers you

 

[AV1611VET]

Ah yes, creation is meant to be all that is needed.

The plan of salvation is what is needed -- not creation.

The plan of salvation is embedded in creation.

Very well. Explain to me how a tribe that has had no outside contact can be aware of the Christian faith specifically.

They aren't.

Meaningless.

I sure you think that.

If you snub the plan of salvation in the Bible, you'll surely snub the same plan in creation.

 

[Aman777]

I didn't mean that in a pantheistic way.

I mean all of creation speaks of Him.

Amen, but evolutionists seem to be deaf and blind.

 

[AV1611VET]

Amen, but evolutionists seem to be deaf and blind.

Or myopic.

 

[Aman777]

So when I die and appear before God, I get to choose?

No. You must decide before you die or leave this planet.

Why Jesus and not God?

Lord God/Jesus is the creator of Adam/mankind and the only God ever formed physically. God the Trinity is an invisible Spirit.

I'm not asking you to judge the chief. I'm asking what you think God's judgement would be.

That everyone would believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, but arose from the dead the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be judged by the Word.

So when I die and appear before God, I get to choose?



Why Jesus and not God?



I'm not asking you to judge the chief. I'm asking what you think God's judgement would be.

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie

Post 255
Kylie - "Is English your first language? I ask because some aspects of your sentence construction suggest that it is not."

What u think?



Why do you think it is not perfect or complete?

What would make it complete?



Kylie you have just busted your own analogy and admitted it is flawed.



So now you admit player 1 is a catalyst. A person or thing that precipitates an event.

Interesting. What thing or person could player 1 be if not God?



It was a good one right. So player 1 is not random or meaningless set of events. Player 1 is a thing or person.



I love av, he is cool. I hope he and i can be friends.

Cheers you

Yeah, come back to me when you can NOT waste my time.

 

[Kylie]

The plan of salvation is what is needed -- not creation.

I was referring to the bit where you said, "You knew. I'm all through My creation (Psalm 19)."

Post 653.

According to you, creation is all that is required for someone to be a Christian.

The plan of salvation is embedded in creation.

So if you know this, why were you so confused about creation not being needed?

They aren't.

So they can't be expected to be a Christian, and yet if they aren't Christian, they are headed for Hell.

Is that right?

I sure you think that.

If you snub the plan of salvation in the Bible, you'll surely snub the same plan in creation.

I meant that it's meaningless in that it makes no sense as it is written. Do you mean helium, which is found in stars? Do you mean astrology? All you have provided here is a slogan. It sounds impressive but carries very little in the way of useful information.

 

[Kylie]

No. You must decide before you die or leave this planet.

Then it's not really a free choice if I have to make the decision before I have the reliable information required to make that decision.

Lord God/Jesus is the creator of Adam/mankind and the only God ever formed physically. God the Trinity is an invisible Spirit.

This doesn't answer the question.

That everyone would believe that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, but arose from the dead the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be judged by the Word.

Did you understand what I asked you? If the chief appears before God or Jesus or whoever you think is going to be doing the judging, what do you think their judgement of the chief would be?

 

[the iconoclast]

Yeah, come back to me when you can NOT waste my time.

Hey hey kylie.

See how you just got defeated again?

Cheers

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie.

See how you just got defeated again?

Cheers

Your insistence on quibbling over an analogy I posted in OTHER THREADS is not you defeating me. It is you intentionally taking this thread off topic. Grow up.

 

[Tayla]

This, hopefully will provide evidence for those people who declare that speciation has never been observed - well it has now.

Yes, of course it happens. What has not been observed are large scale changes of the scope as apes to humans, for example. The only kinds I know of are a small scale.