Evolution Question

[Nathan Poe]

Regardless, it's still an excellent success rate. No matter the measures they had to take for it to become succcessful. If those things are needed immunosuppresants etc, why would you take them away to get a lower ratio?

Why would you use animal organs to get an even lower ratio?

The whole point of tissue matching is to find as close a match as possible. Generally speaking, that's a lot easier to do when you stay in your own species.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Simple yes or no question. If the answer is yes, then I will have a follow up question. If the answer is no, then I have nothing and this thread will be moot.

Evolutionist do you believe humans originated from monkeys/apes/chimpanzees?

Seriously just yes or no, really don't want to discuss the entire evolution process.

Thank you and God Bless

no/ yes / no
related but not from / we are apes/ related but not from

 

[ranmaonehalf]

So basically without getting into technicalities, you all say we evolved from apes.

So then the follow up question is, how come we cannot take an organ from an Ape and transplant it into a human?

They say we are VERY closely related to the "Ape Kingdom", for a lack of a better term, but yet we cannot receive organ from them.

we can, my mom had a kidney translplanted into her brother.

as for other apes. I believe there has been some organ transplants.

As with any organ transplant your body can reject it even if its froma relative.

 

[sbvera13]

OK seriously it just seems logical to me. That IF we came from apes that yes we should be able to find an ape that would match a human.

Not really. There's no perfect match for another human even. All of our cells have chemical markers on them that are unique to that individual. Our immune system uses those markers to identify what is "you" and what is not; if it finds something that's not "you", the immune system kills it. It doesn't matter if the organ is perfectly identical to yours; the markers will not be the same. There's no reason to think that there'd be a compatable ape out there somewhere when there are no compatable humans, either. Drugs are required for any and all successful transplants; without these drugs and other medical procedures, transplant would be impossible even in the most closely related people.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

OK seriously it just seems logical to me. That IF we came from apes that yes we should be able to find an ape that would match a human. I'm not saying every single ape would match every single person, just like parents aren't always matches to their children. But someone from another country could be compatible whether they are technically a family member or not.

Well, no, this just doesn't make sense at all. Our closest living primate cousins are chimps and we are still seperated from them by ~5 million years of evolutionary divergence. Yes we are similar relatively speaking compared to other animals, but we are considerably less similar to chimps than to other humans.

So any issues we have transplanting human to human are going to be magnified to a much greater degree when crossing between species. This whole thing is not nearly as simple as you seem to think it is.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So basically without getting into technicalities, you all say we evolved from apes.

So then the follow up question is, how come we cannot take an organ from an Ape and transplant it into a human?

They say we are VERY closely related to the "Ape Kingdom", for a lack of a better term, but yet we cannot receive organ from them.

We're closely related, yes, but not that closely related.

We're close enough to receive blood from chimps, but not enough to accept their organs. But that shouldn't be a surprise: we don't always accept blood and organs from a fellow human, let alone someone from a different genus.

When my internet / CF finally let me post this, we'd gone from two pages to nine! Oh well...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

OK seriously it just seems logical to me. That IF we came from apes that yes we should be able to find an ape that would match a human. I'm not saying every single ape would match every single person, just like parents aren't always matches to their children. But someone from another country could be compatible whether they are technically a family member or not.

Humans cannot always accept transfusions and organ donations from other humans. What makes you think that we would be able to accept things from organisms outside our genus, if we can't even accept things from within our own species?

It's like saying, "If Playmobil can't fit with LEGO, then both must have been created by some Intelligent Plastic-Mould Maker".

Obviously, both Playmobil and LEGO are made by intelligences (i.e., humans), but the mere fact that Playmobil parts can't interlock with LEGO bricks doesn't prove this.

 

[Cabal]

Humans cannot always accept transfusions and organ donations from other humans. What makes you think that we would be able to accept things from organisms outside our genus, if we can't even accept things from within our own species?

It's like saying, "If Playmobil can't fit with LEGO, then both must have been created by some Intelligent Plastic-Mould Maker".

Obviously, both Playmobil and LEGO are made by intelligences (i.e., humans), but the mere fact that Playmobil parts can't interlock with LEGO bricks doesn't prove this.

Does the commonality instead lie in the fact that there's rejection of organs and tissues across the board (i.e what humans and our near relatives DO have in common is the individualised biochemistry and sensitive immune system?)

 

[sfs]

OK seriously it just seems logical to me. That IF we came from apes that yes we should be able to find an ape that would match a human. I'm not saying every single ape would match every single person, just like parents aren't always matches to their children. But someone from another country could be compatible whether they are technically a family member or not.

I don't know anything about the history or current status of xenotransplantation, but your supposition here is not what I would expect from evolution. I expect to find close human matches for my own tissues because there are many human chromosomes out there that share a recent common ancestor with my chromosomes. (Specifically, with my copies of chromosome 6, the site of the HLA complex, which is the primary determinant of tissue compatibility.) My close relatives, of course, are the first place to look for closely related chromosomes, but many people throughout the human population have chromosomes that differ by only a few hundreds or thousands of years of mutations from my own.

In contrast, every chimpanzee chromosome differs from mine by at least ten million years worth of mutations, and other apes and monkeys are even more distant. So a close match is exactly what you should not expect from other species. (This is why speciation is important in evolution, by the way: there is a fundamental difference between genetics within and across species.)

 

[Tenka]

That being said, there should be an ape out there that can also be a match, IF we were to come from apes.

It's unfortunate that you've decided to treat the people who took the time to answer your questions so obnoxiously, very uncalled for.

We are not descended from any modern apes, chimps and gorillas are more like our cousins than a parent species. So it does not follow that we should be readily compatible for organ swaps.
There are many reasons why pigs are used for transplants instead of greater apes. Chiefly among them being that pigs are a domesticated, docile species and are raised specifically for organ transplants in a very controlled environment and reliably bred and quickly grown to maturity, this is not the case with apes.
It may be that compatible individuals exist but it is impractical to track them down and the risk of introducing a new virus is far too great.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Ok so lets say it is an "ethical" issue. Well we don't find it unethical to take a kidney from someone (seeing how we humans have 2 and can survive on 1) to transplant into someone else. So lets go ahead and leave the heart out of the equation.

Still leaves A LOT of organs that could be used i.e. lungs, kidneys, portion of the liver, etc. Where would it be unethical for us to use these organ parts, to save a humans life?

Last transplant was I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) 1992, well it is now 17 yrs later and still nothing?

Those donations are done with consent. no one in the world could have forced my mom to give her kidney to her brother but she did donate it.

There is a BLACK ORGAN market where they do take organs and that is pretty much considered unethical by most people. (especially without consent)

Many animal are on the endangered species list as well so we cant touch them. Nor are they a good subsitute for an actual human organ which will have less chance of rejection.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Your right, I admitted that from the beginning, that I myself was trying to see why we don't use Apes for organ transplants. Main point being that if we come from apes we should be able to use their organs. I guess I just wanted to point that out to all the evolutionist.

Argumentative? Yes I will give you that, I am. ....

What you pointed our was your lack of knowlege in biology even basic human biology. You did point that out quite well.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Because if the claim is we come from apes then we should be compatible.

and the claim we should be compatoble is simply wrong.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Regardless, it's still an excellent success rate. No matter the measures they had to take for it to become succcessful. If those things are needed immunosuppresants etc, why would you take them away to get a lower ratio?

the point is that we cant just take an organ from anything even our close relatives. We ahve to fudge it with drugs so our bodies dont know the difference.

 

[Assyrian]

Seems to be a slight problem with the statistics here...

Following are one-year patient and organ graft survival rates:
Organ ............ Patient ........... Graft
...................... Survival Rate .. Survival Rate
Heart-lung ....... 74.7% ............. 76.1%

I'm sorry the patient has died, but on the bright side the heart and lung are doing fine.

 

[Gracchus]

Seems to be a slight problem with the statistics here...

I'm sorry the patient has died, but on the bright side the heart and lung are doing fine.

That just means the patient died from something other than rejection of the grafted organ.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

It's unfortunate that you've decided to treat the people who took the time to answer your questions so obnoxiously, very uncalled for.

We are not descended from any modern apes, chimps and gorillas are more like our cousins than a parent species. So it does not follow that we should be readily compatible for organ swaps.
There are many reasons why pigs are used for transplants instead of greater apes. Chiefly among them being that pigs are a domesticated, docile species and are raised specifically for organ transplants in a very controlled environment and reliably bred and quickly grown to maturity, this is not the case with apes.
It may be that compatible individuals exist but it is impractical to track them down and the risk of introducing a new virus is far too great.

I believe I'm being called obnoxious because I'm not going along with everyone answers. Which is fine, kind of like you have your opinion and I have mine. I will stand behind if we come from apes we should be compatible.

As far as modern day apes, so apes today are different than the apes 1000 yrs ago? I know, I know, your going to say 1000 yrs ago, try billions of years ago. Well I beg to differ here. I can honestly say I don't know how old the earth is (in exact yrs) but I am a believer that the world is not billions of yrs old.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

the point is that we cant just take an organ from anything even our close relatives. We ahve to fudge it with drugs so our bodies dont know the difference.

So then the same should go for the apes organs, right? I mean you said it, you have to "fudge" it up so the body doesn't know the difference. So we should be able to "fudge" it up with an apes organ!

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

and the claim we should be compatoble is simply wrong.

Why, Because you guys say so, right? Well I can make that stand too, which is what I have saying all along.

What you pointed our was your lack of knowlege in biology even basic human biology. You did point that out quite well.

Ok, thank you for pointing that out.

Those donations are done with consent. no one in the world could have forced my mom to give her kidney to her brother but she did donate it.

I truly love the consent arguement. Now I just want to see ALL the signed consent forms for the animals that we do testing on every single day. I won't hold my breath waiting on this one though.

 

[Vehementi Dominus]

I believe I'm being called obnoxious because I'm not going along with everyone answers. Which is fine, kind of like you have your opinion and I have mine. I will stand behind if we come from apes we should be compatible.

As far as modern day apes, so apes today are different than the apes 1000 yrs ago? I know, I know, your going to say 1000 yrs ago, try billions of years ago. Well I beg to differ here. I can honestly say I don't know how old the earth is (in exact yrs) but I am a believer that the world is not billions of yrs old.

You're quite welcome to go on believing as you do, in the face of stacks and stacks of evidence to the contrary. I'd supply you with that evidence, but I feel like I'd just be wasting my time.

The answer is there were no apes "1000" years ago. Apes and man originated from a single common ancestor, we took one path of evolution and they took another. It's not hard to understand.

As for evidence on evolution;

Atavism.
Human chromasome #2.
Comparative anatomy.
Embryological development.
mtDNA.
Transitional and intermediate fossils and the relative depths at which they're found in the Earth.
Nylonase producing bacteria.
Peppered moth.
Homo Neanderthalis fossils and DNA.
Endogenous retrovirus and the area in which it replaces in the human and chimp genome.

That's barely the snowflake on the very top of the tip of the proverbial iceberg of evidence. Every single piece of evidence we have supports it, and none contradict it. Every single piece has undergone the harshest scientific scrutiny during the peer-review stage. Anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to reach a valid conclusion from that.

The first of our kind to appear, that was anatomically and mentally indistinguishable from us, have been traced back to Africa, about 60,000 years ago.